Are things that make you feel good bad?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
MagnetSoulSP
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Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/jed-mckenna/

Something I read a long time ago that caused me real damage where this guy mentions that anything that is good or uplifting or positive or encouraging is essentially "bad" and lying to yourself, and that sort of made me think that working toward any positive change was a bad thing. I'm not sure what Buddhism would say on this but I wanted to know what people here thought.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Attachment, aversion and Ignorance lead to suffering, it has nothing to do with the status of things as good or bad. it is normal and healthy to enjoy things, but this is not the same as being attached to them.

From my perspective the article is very edgy but says very little of substance, it looks like some kind of vague neo-advaita.

On that subject though, reading something like that cannot cause you damage, it is just words and concepts. Barely even that, frankly. It could arguably be a waste of time though.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by muni »

Like said by JD.
Then Buddha said to examine his words, see if they would be helpful to maintain mindfulness, to release suffering. Then whatever is written on the internet, no need to accept that or take that in consideration because there are words like Buddha/Buddhism when this feels not okay. Let go.

Buddha Nature is as well called Primordial Goodness, as Primordial Wisdom. That is the same.
Or the Goodness already there before our ideation mind forms its world from which we harm and cause suffering to ourselves and others. That could be called bad and is not to recommend. Therefore we must be aware of own conduct, keep an eye inwardly in own mind, do not harm.

Feel good by doing good, without expectations.

Have joy and share joy. :anjali:
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am …anything that is good or uplifting or positive or encouraging is essentially "bad" and lying to yourself…
That is simply wrong.

But what the Dharma teaches is that
temporary things will not bring permanent joy.
So, relying on temporary things is faulty.
Your mind is with you forever, constantly.
So, work with your own mind.
The mind itself is the source of
What we experience as
both, pleasure as well as pain.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

For people curious what the OP is referring to, here's the quote:
Here’s a simple test. If it’s soothing or comforting, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy; if it’s about getting into pleasant emotional or mental states; if it’s about peace, love, tranquility, silence or bliss; if it’s about a brighter future or a better tomorrow; if it makes you feel good about yourself or boosts your self-esteem, tells you you’re okay, tells you everything’s just fine the way it is; if it offers to improve, benefit or elevate you, or if it suggests that someone else is better or above you; if it’s about belief or faith or worship; if it raises or alters consciousness; if it combats stress or deepens relaxation, or if it’s therapeutic or healing, or if it promises happiness or relief from unhappiness, if it’s about any of these or similar things, then it’s not about waking up. Then it’s about living in the dreamstate, not smashing out of it.

On the other hand, if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening. That, or a helluva case of gas.
I think actually the first paragraph may be accurate. He romanticizes waking up from the dream with somewhat violent metaphors... but Buddhism is also about waking up. What he describes are worldly motivations. Instead of aiming towards waking up, the samsaric mind enjoys going about business as usual.

The second paragraph is where it gets questionable, IMO. He makes it sound like spirituality is always torture, or that it somehow should be. What he's describing sounds more like severe mental imbalance, as if wanting to kill yourself meant you were attaining something spiritually. This is cult logic.

Of course there may be dark nights of the soul that can lead to a spiritual evolution... But maybe only for practitioners of higher capacity. For some reason Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo comes to mind. She was in solitary retreat in a hut for 14 years. She actually said it was the happiest time in her life. There was a period of 3 months where she felt like she was going to die, which must have been scary. But she made it out fine, and IMO with some serious realization.

I don't think this guy Jed Mckenna should be a voice that anyone listens to, honestly. Sounds like a bunch of horse raddish. But I think what we might take away is that following our desires is generally coming out of self-grasping (ie. ego). Now here we should be very clear. Self-grasping is not "bad." We are not bad people for having this self-grasping. It's completely normal. But the point is that self-grasping is what causes us suffering in the first place... This is a much deeper teaching than what "Jed Mckenna" was presenting. So wisdom in Buddhism is to understand how the mind is constantly creating projections and believing them as if they were anything more than subjective, and clinging onto them as if they were so very important. When wisdom (prajna) is gained in the Buddhist sense, our mind won't be disturbed by such mental creations very much, and the mind will stop creating so much suffering for us.

Anyway... Aside from blindly following our self-centered desires to achieve some kind of ephemeral "happiness," a much more wholesome source of positivity in our live comes from wisdom and compassion. As Muni said, doing things for others out of a sense of true warmth and generosity. It's why people who volunteer and live a life of service are often some of the happiest in the world.

Believe it or not, taking care of ourselves is part of this compassionate way of living. Beating ourselves up and tearing ourselves down is so unhealthy. Mindfulness practice is about healing the mind from self-destructive habits and learning to just be with a sense of contentment and ease in the present moment.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Inedible »

Jed McKenna is one of my favorite authors. He uses a lot of stories to get his points across and it helps to have read his main three books. One of the things that he keeps repeating is that a lot of people wonder why they haven't reached the goal when the answer is that they haven't truly started. In one of his books he starts with the term cognitive dissonance, where you having opposing beliefs and must try to resolve them. You like animals but also enjoy eating meat. Most of the time, no problem. It only gets uncomfortable at times and then you lubricate those conflicting beliefs by telling yourself that all those animals never would have lived in the first place without the meat industry. And besides, you don't eat the cute ones. Jed calls it spiritual dissonance when you get an urge to be more spiritual and just do the minimum to feel better instead of tearing your life apart and examining everything closely from the ground up. No belief is too small to ignore.

Actually, I found Jed to be deeply disturbing the first time I read his first book. Then I read it again and I enjoyed it because I had a clearer picture of what he was saying. The second book was a lot more fun. The third book was disturbing again. A person is hollow at the core, with only a random collection of stuff keeping us from falling in. We aren't responsible because we didn't make ourselves, but this is where we are. You can keep collecting stuff or you can tear it all away and jump in. I just wish he didn't have to use metaphors so much.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

There is no need to tear apart one's life or circumstances to be "spiritual", samsara will eventually do that for us with no help, it is inevitable.

There's something to be said for not shrinking away from suffering and just making ourselves comfortable, but frankly I've seen others explain it a lot better than that bit or writing did. At least to my ears. There's a difference between acknowledging samsara and simply wanting to blow it all up, pr deny it's appearance. That's the tendency towards nihilism, and (among other things) I think it can cut one off from the kind of seed of Bodhicitta, which we might term simply empathy.

I think seeing Shunyata as merely a lack is a misrepresentation or misapprehension of how things are (appearance/emptiness, compassion/emptiness, awareness/emptiness etc.), though I admit it's more a functional thing than anything scholarly.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Inedible »

That is so true. Jed falls on the side of nihilism. I think that is one of the things I like about him most. The stuff about compassion is the medicine I need and it tastes bad to me. As an adult I have to recognize that I can't just take what I enjoy because it pleases me.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by muni »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:20 am ...the side of nihilism. I think that is one of the things I like about him most. The stuff about compassion is the medicine I need and it tastes bad to me.
I have been seeking shelter in emptiness, like seeking shelter in a huge empty cave on the northside. I would not recommend that.

Because this feels like good and safe, away from all and everything. But it is tricky, since the "all and everything" never stops. And confrontations are unavoidable and so the temporary freedom is only like we would seek shelter under a table, closing our eyes and thinking now I am safe. It is somehow a separation of emptiness and appearances. And that cannot be what Buddha means.

Compassion is not easy. It is asking tremendous courage! Meditation certainly supports.
As an adult I have to recognize that I can't just take what I enjoy because it pleases me.
Yes but why not enjoy? It can without holding onto things/experiences, since all is impermanent, is changing and so all fleeds away.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Giovanni »

There is much confusion about Dukkha. It is often simplified to mean that all life is always suffering.
But it is more subtle. Dukkha says that all experiences will eventually stop being enjoyable. A glass of champagne is good. A bottle a day will eventually be a source of suffering. That young man or women’s company will give pleasure but he or she is going to die. Orgasm is nice but an orgasm that lasts more than a day would be hellish.
Dukkha is the result of thinking that a permanent self exists and it will always find particular experiences pleasurable and that they will always be available to us.
So enjoy those things which do not cause harm, but remember... all things pass. All things.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by seeker242 »

Ardha wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:11 am Something I read a long time ago that caused me real damage where this guy mentions that anything that is good or uplifting or positive or encouraging is essentially "bad" and lying to yourself,

That's nonsense. Practicing the Buddha's teaching is good, uplifting, positive and encouraging and not even close to being bad.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by reiun »

In the article above, the author quotes JM as saying that anything that is therapeutic or healing is dreamstate stuff, and infers it should be autolyzed. Pure crap.
Here is what one Amazon reviewer said about one of his books:
Poorly Crafted Satirical Fiction
Reviewed in the United States on April 7, 2017
McKenna's books really don't float my boat. I find them heartless, not at all witty, and potentially dangerously misleading because many people actually believe McKenna is a real person instead of a character and that these "teachings" of flagrant narcissistic self-absporption are actually "the enlightened voice of the age". They are satire. Sure. But they aren't very good satire.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:01 am Jed McKenna is one of my favorite authors. He uses a lot of stories to get his points across and it helps to have read his main three books. One of the things that he keeps repeating is that a lot of people wonder why they haven't reached the goal when the answer is that they haven't truly started. In one of his books he starts with the term cognitive dissonance, where you having opposing beliefs and must try to resolve them. You like animals but also enjoy eating meat. Most of the time, no problem. It only gets uncomfortable at times and then you lubricate those conflicting beliefs by telling yourself that all those animals never would have lived in the first place without the meat industry. And besides, you don't eat the cute ones. Jed calls it spiritual dissonance when you get an urge to be more spiritual and just do the minimum to feel better instead of tearing your life apart and examining everything closely from the ground up. No belief is too small to ignore.

Actually, I found Jed to be deeply disturbing the first time I read his first book. Then I read it again and I enjoyed it because I had a clearer picture of what he was saying. The second book was a lot more fun. The third book was disturbing again. A person is hollow at the core, with only a random collection of stuff keeping us from falling in. We aren't responsible because we didn't make ourselves, but this is where we are. You can keep collecting stuff or you can tear it all away and jump in. I just wish he didn't have to use metaphors so much.
I question the insights he claims to have because they really don't correspond with others I have talked to who are spiritual.

He reminds me of that old truism that if it is painful it is the truth, but truth is truth regardless of how you feel about it. That and his books seem to get mixed reviews. I will admit that when I first read some things he said it scarred me, because I just took it as gospel. That this was a guy who "knew" (how? I have no idea but I just figured at the time) and I had no place to question him or to disobey.

Lots of people I talked to and showed his stuff too said it was nonsense, but I had this insidious notion that people who said that were afraid of the truth and didn't want to believe him (a damaging notion in spirituality as I've come to learn). It's also not like the term spiritual teacher is regulated either.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Inedible »

There are a lot of good books out there. If you don't like to read Jed McKenna, you don't have to. He is just a character in a book.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Inedible wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:46 am There are a lot of good books out there. If you don't like to read Jed McKenna, you don't have to. He is just a character in a book.
Oh he's just a character? I didn't know that I thought he was a real person.

Regardless I was severely messed up by just that little article a few other stuff he wrote. I deliberately made myself miserable because being happy or helping yourself was living a lie.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Inedible »

There is a guy who claims to be the real Jed and living in Cambodia, but he doesn't sound like the Jed in the books. The one in the books said he is just a character in a book and the most important thing he would teach is to think for yourself. He said that no one should take what he writes too seriously and that he learns to express himself as he goes along. Someone has to be real enough to write the books. Also, even though he praises Buddhism I think many of his ideas are closer to Hinduism.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Inedible wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:13 am There is a guy who claims to be the real Jed and living in Cambodia, but he doesn't sound like the Jed in the books. The one in the books said he is just a character in a book and the most important thing he would teach is to think for yourself. He said that no one should take what he writes too seriously and that he learns to express himself as he goes along. Someone has to be real enough to write the books. Also, even though he praises Buddhism I think many of his ideas are closer to Hinduism.
Doesn't sound like he says to think for yourself in his books. And I even further doubt the claim that he says no one should take what he writes too seriously considering much of what he says is very intense.

The guy pretty much said being happy and doing stuff to help yourself is wrong.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:02 am
Inedible wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:13 am There is a guy who claims to be the real Jed and living in Cambodia, but he doesn't sound like the Jed in the books. The one in the books said he is just a character in a book and the most important thing he would teach is to think for yourself. He said that no one should take what he writes too seriously and that he learns to express himself as he goes along. Someone has to be real enough to write the books. Also, even though he praises Buddhism I think many of his ideas are closer to Hinduism.
Doesn't sound like he says to think for yourself in his books. And I even further doubt the claim that he says no one should take what he writes too seriously considering much of what he says is very intense.

The guy pretty much said being happy and doing stuff to help yourself is wrong.
No, he didn't. I'm not enamored of his writings at all, they appear to me to be trite and superficial in comparison to actual Dharma teaching, etc., as well as out and out nihilistic in places.

However, you are fixated on this notion that this or that teaching, person etc. is somehow telling you to be anhedonic, when what's being is said is often just poking at the sacred cow of "having it all", or taking achievements, hopes, and dreams as something more important than they are, that is not the same as telling someone not to enjoy life. That is about the only positive thing I can say of what I read - the poking at sacred cows.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by Inedible »

It is literally in his first book. He says people don't want teaching that would fit on a matchbook, but he says think for yourself. And he likes jumping out of airplanes. The chase scene with the police at the beginning of the third book was a lot of fun, too. Back to the first book, he enjoys watching thunderstorms. He isn't against enjoying things. He said just keep in mind that they don't last.
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Re: Are things that make you feel good bad?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:33 am
Ardha wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:02 am
Inedible wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:13 am There is a guy who claims to be the real Jed and living in Cambodia, but he doesn't sound like the Jed in the books. The one in the books said he is just a character in a book and the most important thing he would teach is to think for yourself. He said that no one should take what he writes too seriously and that he learns to express himself as he goes along. Someone has to be real enough to write the books. Also, even though he praises Buddhism I think many of his ideas are closer to Hinduism.
Doesn't sound like he says to think for yourself in his books. And I even further doubt the claim that he says no one should take what he writes too seriously considering much of what he says is very intense.

The guy pretty much said being happy and doing stuff to help yourself is wrong.
No, he didn't. I'm not enamored of his writings at all, they appear to me to be trite and superficial in comparison to actual Dharma teaching, etc., as well as out and out nihilistic in places.

However, you are fixated on this notion that this or that teaching, person etc. is somehow telling you to be anhedonic, when what's being is said is often just poking at the sacred cow of "having it all", or taking achievements, hopes, and dreams as something more important than they are, that is not the same as telling someone not to enjoy life. That is about the only positive thing I can say of what I read - the poking at sacred cows.
I didn't get that from his writings. He's pretty much arguing that if it makes you feel good it's bad. I think one writing of his likened truth to staying in a burning building or jumping out of the window but you'll eventually hit the pavement (it was a long time ago but that part stood out). He seems to be telling you to be anhedonic, not that things don't last.

That's why he gave me so much grief and suffering for a long time because there is this notion that spiritual teachers "you know something you don't" and you can't question them because that is just ego.

From what I gather of his writings that is the message, that feeling good is bad because it's ego or illusion. That doing anything helpful (like in the little blurb in the link) is to stay in the illusion. I know one can't "have it all", there's literally hundreds of media out there about the trope, but that's not what he means.
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