Realization and realized masters

LucasGP
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:18 pm

Realization and realized masters

Post by LucasGP »

Hey everyone.

So, I was wondering about Zen. In my country (Brazil), is still spreading, but at the most is that zen beatnik-like and shit... Anyway... This got me wondering, I know it's hard to find an realized teacher (please, let's not get into the sense of the word realization and zazen being useless etc, it's not the point here) but can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Yes.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
jimmi
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:41 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by jimmi »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pmYes.
If that is so, how would you know?
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Traditionally afaik Zen relies fairly strongly on a relationship with a teacher.

That said, it is much more possible to have a relationship with teacher(s) remotely these days.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
tingdzin
Posts: 1947
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by tingdzin »

You can go a long way in Zen without a "realized" teacher. You can first of all learn the basics, for which I strongly recommend (for Rinzai Zen, anyway), Meido Roshi's book "The Rinzai Zen Way", which would have been invaluable to me when I started. You can discipline yourself through daily meditation in the proper posture, and turn your mind towards a strong spirit of inquiry. Eventually, you will probably feel the need for a teacher, but following the steps outlined in Meido Roshi's book will not only help you, but will make it more likely you will make a strong start and eventually meet a teacher. Online Zen encounters are of very limited use in real Zen, though.
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by narhwal90 »

As long as the teacher is more realized than I am then thats ok by me. What is realized? not sure, but it pays to watch the teacher- do they practice what they preach, how do they act when things are good and when things are bad. That means face-time and involvement- by zoom is ok, the goal being to interact with them, learn some of the stories, see how they interact with others in the sangha, and get to know them as well.

Key points for me are the dana policy; is it discretionary or pay-to-play, and how stable and appropriate are their relationships. Similarly how open are they wrt conduct, is there pressure to enter into a commitment with them. After 6 months or maybe a year, and if you're feeling it, then for my money it might be time to ask to enter some kind of commitment.
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

jimmi wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:21 pm
clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pmYes.
If that is so, how would you know?
It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Astus »

LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pmcan one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
It's not the teacher who makes the disciple realised, but by practising the six paramitas with bodhicitta one attains liberation. So the question is if a teacher imparts correct knowledge and whether the disciple learns and applies the correct path.

'In all cases, whether alone or with a group, whether as a householder or home-leaver, it is better to practice under a qualified master. Practice without the guidance of a master will probably not be too fruitful. Practicing with a master can save you time. A master's understanding and experience can help you firmly grasp the essentials of practice and cultivate a correct view of Buddhadharma. This enables you to more quickly free yourself from the vexations of body and mind. With a master, time otherwise spent studying sutras and worrying about following the right path, can be devoted single-mindedly to practice.'
(Zen Wisdom by Ven. Sheng-yen, p 18)

'The most important thing in recognizing masters is to be able to judge whether they have a correct view of Buddhadharma. If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters.
Of course, this presupposes that the person making the judgment has some understanding of correct Dharma. Without an understanding of the Dharma, there is no way a practitioner can tell if a teacher is genuine or false.'

(Zen Wisdom by Ven. Sheng-yen, p 27)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Rick
Posts: 2629
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Rick »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 pm It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
One possibly viable approach is to devise your own path (based on knowledge gleaned from qualified sources), and have one or more 'expert guides' whom you can check in with regularly to help you determine if you're moving in the right direction.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 pm It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
Pratyeka Buddhas only appear in a period without dharma though, so while Sakyamuni's dharma is existent we cannot have Pratyeka Buddhas. And, Pratekya Buddhas attain this realisation from vows made in front of previous Buddhas.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 pm
jimmi wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:21 pm
clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pmYes.
If that is so, how would you know?
It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
Not while there is the doctrine of a samyaksambuddha in the world.
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by KeithA »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:30 pm
clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 pm
jimmi wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:21 pm
If that is so, how would you know?
It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
Not while there is the doctrine of a samyaksambuddha in the world.
I always imagine Malcolm feeling a great disturbance in the Force any time someone mentions Zen enlighment! (Just kidding big guy, I appreciate your input. Your views on the importance of Dependent Origination in understanding sunyata have really changed my practice for the better)

As far as the topic goes, being a deluded being, how would one even know who is enlightened and who isn't? Want a good test of a teacher? Do some practice with the teacher's Sangha. It will become evident pretty quickly whether the person is worth learning from. Of course, this also requires some common sense and wisdom on the part of the practitioner.

As far a teacher goes, even the Buddha had teachers. If you are practicing with kong an's (koan's jp), a teacher is necessary. No way around that. But, there are many ways to get some basic instruction and set up a good practice routine. Here is a shameless plug for my own tradition: Kwan Um Zen Online Sangha There are others.

Just practice, and see what happens. The teacher will appear.

_/|\_
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matt J »

If Zen is founded on the statements of Bodhidharma:

A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not founded upon words and letters.
By pointing directly to [one's] mind,
It lets one see into [one's own true] nature and [thus] attain Buddhahood.
(trans Dumoulin)

Then it seems fairly clear that it requires a teacher to point this out. Of course, there are always exceptions (Chinul), but they tend to be high level geniuses remembered for centuries after.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:31 pm
clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:33 pm It is accepted Buddhist doctrine across all traditions that there are Pratyeka Buddhas; so a teacher, realized or not, may be beneficial, but is not necessary.
Pratyeka Buddhas only appear in a period without dharma though, so while Sakyamuni's dharma is existent we cannot have Pratyeka Buddhas. And, Pratekya Buddhas attain this realisation from vows made in front of previous Buddhas.
(And Malcolm)

I don’t think that is the understanding in the Zen tradition. (This is a Zen forum.) Can you provide references?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:31 am I don’t think that is the understanding in the Zen tradition. (This is a Zen forum.) Can you provide references?
I received these teachings in the grounds and paths material, I believe it's from Asanga in the abhidharma-samuccaya. Malcolm will know far more than me here though.

It's also in the dharmagupta vinaya
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by SilenceMonkey »

You can’t achieve realization by learning from a book. Especially in zen! It’s a Dharma that is beyond words and ordinary thought. You need a master to bring out that state in you and show you correct methods for how to achieve Buddhahood.

I also think Keith and Tingdzin are right, you can do some real practice without a teacher. And sooner or later, the teacher will arrive.
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:06 am
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:31 am I don’t think that is the understanding in the Zen tradition. (This is a Zen forum.) Can you provide references?
I received these teachings in the grounds and paths material, I believe it's from Asanga in the abhidharma-samuccaya. Malcolm will know far more than me here though.

It's also in the dharmagupta vinaya
Can you or Malcolm provide the text (or a pointer to its location) which states that Pratyeka Buddhas cannot appear “while Sakyamuni's dharma is existent” I know of no Zen teacher or text that states such a thing.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:21 am You can’t achieve realization by learning from a book.
Even that isn’t true according to the Zen tradition. Hui-Neng, the Sixth Zen Patriarch, was an illiterate woodcutter who attained enlightenment upon hearing the Diamond Sutra.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 1448
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by SilenceMonkey »

clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:21 am You can’t achieve realization by learning from a book.
Even that isn’t true according to the Zen tradition. Hui-Neng, the Sixth Zen Patriarch, was an illiterate woodcutter who attained enlightenment upon hearing the Diamond Sutra.
Huineng trained under the 5th patriarch, Hongren. Enlightenment doesn’t happen in a vacuum. One needs connection with an enlightened master.

(And some people may not like to hear this... but one also needs a pure lineage of transmission.)
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:21 pm
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:16 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:21 am You can’t achieve realization by learning from a book.
Even that isn’t true according to the Zen tradition. Hui-Neng, the Sixth Zen Patriarch, was an illiterate woodcutter who attained enlightenment upon hearing the Diamond Sutra.
Huineng trained under the 5th patriarch, Hongren. Enlightenment doesn’t happen in a vacuum. One needs connection with an enlightened master.

(And some people may not like to hear this... but one also needs a pure lineage of transmission.)
Yes, Hui-Neng did go to Hongren - but after his awakening experience.

And awakening cannot be conditioned on having a teacher and certainly not on having a teacher of “pure lineage” (whatever that means).
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Post Reply

Return to “Zen”