Realization and realized masters

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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm
LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm . . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
If there are no realized (fully awakened) living Zen Masters (This is not a position I hold, but seems to be a position held by many and which also applies to other Buddhist traditions.) and realization is not possible without a realized teacher (Again, not a position I hold, but one held by many.), then it would seem that the effort, at least in this lifetime, is fruitless.

And if there are realized Zen Masters (or teachers in other Buddhist traditions), who are they?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:41 pm
Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm
LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm . . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
If there are no realized (fully awakened) living Zen Masters (This is not a position I hold, but seems to be a position held by many and which also applies to other Buddhist traditions.) and realization is not possible without a realized teacher (Again, not a position I hold, but one held by many.), then it would seem that the effort, at least in this lifetime, is fruitless.

And if there are realized Zen Masters (or teachers in other Buddhist traditions), who are they?
Full awakening is rare. But awakening is less so. You don't need a buddha for a teacher, you just need a bodhisattva on the paths and stages, and then, maybe not even a first stage bodhisattva, but someone who has some measure of training and realization on the path of application.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by pemachophel »

What Loppon said. :good:

Realization (tokpa) is not fully Enlightened, unsurpassable Buddhahood. Although it's been many, many years since I've had any interaction with Zen practitioners, I find it hard to believe that there are no realized Teachers within Zen.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
krodha
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by krodha »

clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:41 pm And if there are realized Zen Masters (or teachers in other Buddhist traditions), who are they?
Meido Moore Roshi, who has posted here in the past is very clear on the view, and though I’m not clairvoyant, and he is very modest, his presentation and understanding of the path are indicative of someone with some degree of genuine insight or realization.

Certainly a reliable resource as far as Zen goes.
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

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krodha wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:45 pm
clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:41 pm And if there are realized Zen Masters (or teachers in other Buddhist traditions), who are they?
Meido Moore Roshi, who has posted here in the past is very clear on the view, and though I’m not clairvoyant, and he is very modest, his presentation and understanding of the path are indicative of someone with some degree of genuine insight or realization.

Certainly a reliable resource as far as Zen goes.
As I wrote above, I don’t hold to the position that they’re aren’t realized Zen teachers. I can name many Zen teachers (also, Theravadan/Vipassana and Tibetan Buddhist teachers) whom I’ve met and sat with who have “some degree of genuine insight or realization.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:30 pm Full awakening is rare. But awakening is less so. You don't need a buddha for a teacher, you just need a bodhisattva on the paths and stages, and then, maybe not even a first stage bodhisattva, but someone who has some measure of training and realization on the path of application.
You’ve lowered the bar to “someone who has some measure of training and realization” which could be almost any serious Buddhist practitioner.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:41 pm
Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm
LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm . . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
If there are no realized (fully awakened) living Zen Masters (This is not a position I hold, but seems to be a position held by many and which also applies to other Buddhist traditions.) and realization is not possible without a realized teacher (Again, not a position I hold, but one held by many.), then it would seem that the effort, at least in this lifetime, is fruitless.

And if there are realized Zen Masters (or teachers in other Buddhist traditions), who are they?
Serious practice is never fruitless, even if we do not get to any realisation. It contradicts zen teachings and Buddhist teachings in general. People have romantic idea about realisation, specially in the West and they want to believe that zen teachers are enlightened masters. It is naive view.

In zen there is possibility to transmit correctly teachings and instructions under condition that the teacher is very very serious. But many are simply celebrities in robes, that is unfortunate. If there are correctly transmitted teachings and instructions then there is a chance that one may attain some realisation. Still well trained teacher is a must. It pertains to soto and rinzai zen as well.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

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Standard of realization was taught to me as evidence by Daman Hongren:

15. Question: Adepts who seek the true, everlasting peace, but who only care about impermanent, base, worldly virtues and don't care about the true, everlasting, subtle virtues of Absolute Truth haven't seen the principle, and only want arouse the mind to focus on doctrines which are thought about; as soon as conscious awareness arises, it is polluted. But if one just wants to forget about the mind, this is the darkness of ignorance; it isn't in accord with the true principle either. And if one only wants to neither to stop the mind or focus on principles, this is to incorrectly grasp emptiness, and living like a beast instead of a human. When this happens, if one doesn't have any methods of concentration / insight and can't understand how to clearly see the Buddha-nature, the adept only gets befuddled - how is one to go beyond this and arrive at total nirvana? Please point out the true mind.

16. Answer: You only need to have total confidence and effective determination. Gently quiet your mind, and I will teach you once again.

You should make your own mind & body uncluttered and serene, unentangled in any objects whatsoever. Sit straight, rightly aware, and fine-tune your breath so it is well adjusted. Examine your mind to see it as neither inside nor outside nor in between. Watch it calmly, carefully and objectively; when you master this, you clearly see that the mind's consciousness moves in a flow, like a water-current or like heat waves rising without end.

When you have seen this consciousness, you find it is neither out nor in: without hurry, objectively & calmly observe it. When you master this, then melt and flux over and over, empty yet solid, profoundly stable, and then the flowing consciousness will disappear.

Those who get this consciousness to disappear will then destroy the obstructing confusions of the Bodhisattvas of the ten stages. Once this consciousness is gone, then the mind is open and still, quiet, serene and calm, perfectly pure, and enormously stable.


Consciousness needs to disappear! How? For each individual I have no clue. We have to believe it will happen.
Last edited by LastLegend on Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm
LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm . . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:30 pm Full awakening is rare. But awakening is less so. You don't need a buddha for a teacher, you just need a bodhisattva on the paths and stages, and then, maybe not even a first stage bodhisattva, but someone who has some measure of training and realization on the path of application.
You’ve lowered the bar to “someone who has some measure of training and realization” which could be almost any serious Buddhist practitioner.
I never claimed a high bar. I just said “realized.”
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by reiun »

clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 am Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.
That would only yield a secondhand answer. Why don't you directly contact two teachers who are known here, Meido Roshi https://www.korinji.org/contact-korinji and Guo Gu https://tallahasseechan.org/contact-us/ They will, perhaps, tell you firsthand how "serious" they and their own teachers are, and what that looks like, to quell your apparent skepticism that such dedicated, "serious" teachers exist. If that is uncomfortable, and you prefer to be indirect, try reading their books.

LucasGP might also consider contacting zen teachers, who can, of course, best answer questions regarding qualifications, realization, seriousness, etc.
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

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Reiun, As I posted earlier in this thread,
clyde wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:05 pm I can name many Zen teachers (also, Theravadan/Vipassana and Tibetan Buddhist teachers) whom I’ve met and sat with who have “some degree of genuine insight or realization.”
My interest in whom Matylda thinks are realized or serious Zen teachers. She sets a high bar.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
reiun
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by reiun »

clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:06 am My interest in whom Matylda thinks are realized or serious Zen teachers. She sets a high bar.
Ah, I see, so: not a challenge . . . And of course no apologies necessary to Meido or Guo Gu as not "high bar".
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Re: Realization and realized masters

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Śrāvakas see the production of ignorance and the extinction of ignorance. Pratyekabuddhas see only the extinction of ignorance but not the production of ignorance, so they realize tranquil extinction thought after thought. All the buddhas see sentient beings produced all day long without ever being produced and extinguished all day long without ever being extinguished. To be free from both production and extinction is the fruition of the Mahāyāna.'


There is a step process here: 1) Consciousness needs to disappear (for a lack of a better word) 2) then it can be said free from production and extinction which implies a genuine awakened state. Otherwise mind can still be lost in delusion…that awakened state has work to be done because it’s Mahayana ideal and the fruit of Buddhahood is based on sentient beings. Very important step.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 am
Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm
LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm . . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.
most easy way to answer is who is not... celebs are not, those who look for fame and recognition are not, etc, you are old enough to know.

where to look for 'very, very ....''? among those who went through great suffering, they will not play zen master drama, not be celebs etc.. they will be serious and quick to recognize their own limitations and will keep low profile.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I’ve mentioned a few Chan teachers on this forum who I believe have some serious realization.

(Many people mention Guo Gu, but I haven’t interacted much with him).

There has been some widespread lament at Dharma Drum Mountain after Master Sheng Yen passed. It may be that some of the old students on the mountain have profound realization (which I personally believe to be the case). But it’s thought that no one there is a shifu (Master who trains disciples). I’m not quite sure how to interpret this... perhaps it means that no one can fill Master Sheng Yen’s shoes.

They don’t talk about who has realization very much... it’s sort of a taboo. But they will say, this person is a very good teacher.
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by SilenceMonkey »

One indicator of a good Master might be hearing about what sort of training they went through.

A lot of the great masters of the previous generation (such as Seung Shan, Hsuan Hua and Sheng Yen) underwent some unbelievable hardship in their early years. And they did quite a bit of retreat.
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Matylda wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:23 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:21 am
Matylda wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:11 pm

no
Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.
most easy way to answer is who is not... celebs are not, those who look for fame and recognition are not, etc, you are old enough to know.

where to look for 'very, very ....''? among those who went through great suffering, they will not play zen master drama, not be celebs etc.. they will be serious and quick to recognize their own limitations and will keep low profile.
Matylda, That was a tactful answer, but doesn’t actually answer the question.

While celebrity is not a sign of realization, I can’t agree that “fame and recognition” are signs that a teacher is not “very, very serious”. Certainly that doesn’t apply to Thich Nhat Hanh, Seung Sahn, or Sheng Yen, nor other well-known Zen teachers (or well-known teachers in other traditions).

So, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
krodha
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by krodha »

clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:57 pmSo, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?
You seem dissatisfied with every reply to this question.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Arnoud »

krodha wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:10 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:57 pmSo, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?
You seem dissatisfied with every reply to this question.
I kind of get why though. Because he is asking for names. At the same time, it’s probably good to know that since no one can know someone else’s realization, it’s very hard to recommend a teacher to someone else. Because teachers I believe to be recognized might be considered frauds by others and vice versa. So, I understand the reluctance but I also understand why someone who never believed a teacher is necessary would not understand that reluctance.
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