Realization and realized masters

[reiun]

Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.

most easy way to answer is who is not... celebs are not, those who look for fame and recognition are not, etc, you are old enough to know.

where to look for 'very, very ....''? among those who went through great suffering, they will not play zen master drama, not be celebs etc.. they will be serious and quick to recognize their own limitations and will keep low profile.

Matylda, That was a tactful answer, but doesn’t actually answer the question.

While celebrity is not a sign of realization, I can’t agree that “fame and recognition” are signs that a teacher is not “very, very serious”. Certainly that doesn’t apply to Thich Nhat Hanh, Seung Sahn, or Sheng Yen, nor other well-known Zen teachers (or well-known teachers in other traditions).

So, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?

You are asking this question for the *third time*. You got her answer. Back off. You are on the cusp of bullying.

[KeithA]

most easy way to answer is who is not... celebs are not, those who look for fame and recognition are not, etc, you are old enough to know.

where to look for 'very, very ....''? among those who went through great suffering, they will not play zen master drama, not be celebs etc.. they will be serious and quick to recognize their own limitations and will keep low profile.

Matylda, That was a tactful answer, but doesn’t actually answer the question.

While celebrity is not a sign of realization, I can’t agree that “fame and recognition” are signs that a teacher is not “very, very serious”. Certainly that doesn’t apply to Thich Nhat Hanh, Seung Sahn, or Sheng Yen, nor other well-known Zen teachers (or well-known teachers in other traditions).

So, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?

You are asking this question for the *third time*. You got her answer. Back off. You are on the cusp of bullying.

That's a completely unnecessary and over the top reaction. I have known Clyde online for many years, and the last thing he is, is a bully.

If one doesn't like the question, It's ok to just say nothing and scroll on by.


As far as the topic goes, the "do you need a teacher?" thing has been done to death in Zen forums.

Just do the practice. See what happens. A teacher helps.

_/|\_

[clyde]

So, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?

You seem dissatisfied with every reply to this question.

I kind of get why though. Because he is asking for names. At the same time, it’s probably good to know that since no one can know someone else’s realization, it’s very hard to recommend a teacher to someone else. Because teachers I believe to be recognized might be considered frauds by others and vice versa. So, I understand the reluctance but I also understand why someone who never believed a teacher is necessary would not understand that reluctance.

Please, don’t mistake my belief that a teacher is not necessary for realization for a belief that there are no realized teachers or that teachers aren’t beneficial. I’ve posted in this thread and others that I believe there are realized Zen teachers (I’ve met and sat with a few.) and that teachers can be beneficial.

Matylda has written in this thread that a realized teacher is necessary and elsewhere has expressed great doubt about current Zen teachers and especially Western Zen teachers; so, yes, I’m asking her to name names of those she believes are realized.


p.s: And what could be harmful about naming teachers whom one believes have “some degree of genuine insight or realization.”

[Genjo Conan]

I feel like the "is Zen still good y/n" debate gets rehashed here every couple of months, and always winds up in pretty much the same place.

[reiun]

so, yes, I’m asking her to name names of those she believes are realized.

#4

[Arnoud]

You seem dissatisfied with every reply to this question.

I kind of get why though. Because he is asking for names. At the same time, it’s probably good to know that since no one can know someone else’s realization, it’s very hard to recommend a teacher to someone else. Because teachers I believe to be recognized might be considered frauds by others and vice versa. So, I understand the reluctance but I also understand why someone who never believed a teacher is necessary would not understand that reluctance.

Please, don’t mistake my belief that a teacher is not necessary for realization for a belief that there are no realized teachers or that teachers aren’t beneficial. I’ve posted in this thread and others that I believe there are realized Zen teachers (I’ve met and sat with a few.) and that teachers can be beneficial.

Matylda has written in this thread that a realized teacher is necessary and elsewhere has expressed great doubt about current Zen teachers and especially Western Zen teachers; so, yes, I’m asking her to name names of those she believes are realized.


p.s: And what could be harmful about naming teachers whom one believes have “some degree of genuine insight or realization.”

I don’t think it’s harmful but I understand her reluctance. I try not to name my teachers on a public forum either. Although I might have done so here. Only when I know someone. No sense if there isn’t a genuine desire to make a connection. Also, since she mentioned non famous people, maybe they don’t want to be named online? I am pretty sure if someone who PM Matylda and said they wanted to meet a genuine Zen teacher and would come to Japan and stay there, she would try to help out. No matter how nice you seem, you don’t seem to have that level of interest.

[Matylda]

So, please, are there living Zen teachers that you believe are realized and if so, who?

I see.. well I do not know any living person at the moment. But it does not mean that there is nobody of course. Those who were, are gone, they died in last 20 years or so.

Generally speaking I think, that those realised are simply unknown they keep away from the world, not for the notion of seclusion or renunciation, but simply because people are not serious. There was a certain one in the last 20 years who repeatedly denied very high position in most important zen monastery, and his denial was simple - nobody was going to listen to him, and he was right. So he stayed in his small half ruined temple, forgotten by gods, and big limusine cars sadly retyrned empty to their premises. Though some people got to him.

And what? When he died suddenly there is a dozen of hungry ghosts, who try to make their way, how to say, to a successful career based on his name. And what? Suddenly they claim to be his students, suggesting that they carry on his dharma etc. Those are ghosts looking for the recognition, and if they will succeed next step will be to become well known, i.e. a celeb. This could be very good business.

So if I knew any realised master/person/man/woman/kid/girl etc. I would never mention his/her name for the sake of dharma. If I would say it would be like in an old mafia or Al Capone movie, a death kiss.

Anyway, those teachers, who are not hungry ghosts, and dengerously stepped in the peril situation of a big crowd of followers, must be extremely careful not to end up 'on the dark side of power, my son'. Once they will do this grave mistake there will be almost no way back. More fame more dangers.

[Johnny Dangerous]

You can’t achieve realization by learning from a book.

Even that isn’t true according to the Zen tradition. Hui-Neng, the Sixth Zen Patriarch, was an illiterate woodcutter who attained enlightenment upon hearing the Diamond Sutra.

Hearing a sutra is completely different from reading it in a book, particularly in this context.

[Matylda]

Lets look what great masters had to say about the subject:

O you, monks, who are in this mountain monastery, remember that you are gathered here for the sake of religion and not for the sake of clothes and food. As long as you have shoulders [that is, the body], you will have clothes to wear, and as long as you have a mouth, you will have food to eat. Be ever mindful, throughout the twelve hours of the day, to apply yourselves to the study of the Unthinkable.

Time passes like an arrow, never let your minds be disturbed by worldly cares.

Ever, ever be on the look-out. After my departure, some of you may preside over five temples in prosperous conditions, with towers and halls and holy books all decorated in gold and silver, and devotees may noisily crowd into the grounds; some may pass hours in reading the sutras and reciting the dharanis, and sitting long in contemplation may not give themselves up to sleep; they may, eating once a day and observing the fastdays, and, throughout the six periods of the day, practise all the religious deeds. Even when they are thus devoted to the cause, if their thoughts are not really dwelling on the mysterious and untransmissible Way of the Buddhas and Fathers, they may yet come to ignore the law o moral causation, ending in a complete downfall of the true religion.

All such belong to the family of evil spirits;

however long my departure from the world may be, they are not to be called my descendants.

Let, however, there be just one individual, who may be living in the wilderness in a hut thatched with one bundle of straw and passing his days by eating the roots of wild herbs cooked in a pot with broken legs; but if he single-mindedly applies himself to the study of his own affairs, he is the very one who has a daily interview with me and knows how to be grateful for his life. Who should ever despise such a one? O monks, be diligent, be diligent

I may question quality of this translation but it gives general feeling of the zen spirit, concerning genuine zen person... The author of this advice was master Daito, who himlesf lived for 20 years as a homeless bum. and it was extremely difficult to find any trace of him or detect him. he probably looked like many NY street bums.

[PadmaVonSamba]

. . . can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?

no

Matylda, So, who are the realized Zen teachers or the teachers who are “very very serious”? Please name names.

DaeHaeng Sunim (1927–2012) who I met in the 1980s.
Website: https://hanmaumseoncenter.org/daehaeng- ... kun-sunim/

[KeithA]

I feel like the "is Zen still good y/n" debate gets rehashed here every couple of months, and always winds up in pretty much the same place.

This is true. I have never really thought Zen was great fodder for forums. It's mostly just ego reinforcement, which I am doing right now. And, in this forum, Zen is the red-headed step-child anyway. My reason for hanging out here to get other perspectives from other traditions, which has been mostly helpful

Zen is best practiced with the Sangha, with as little yakking as possible. I always feel fortunate to have stumbled into the Sangha I did.

On Sunday, our small group sat down, hit the chugpi, sat for a couple of hours, chanted for ten minutes and went about our business. No extraneous words, just silence. It was a cold, gray morning, with some snow flurries here and there. Absolutely glorious!

[narhwal90]

And, in this forum, Zen is the red-headed step-child anyway.

big fun also over in Nichiren-land

On Sunday, our small group sat down, hit the chugpi, sat for a couple of hours, chanted for ten minutes and went about our business. No extraneous words, just silence. It was a cold, gray morning, with some snow flurries here and there. Absolutely glorious!

We meet wednesdays

[KeithA]

And, in this forum, Zen is the red-headed step-child anyway.

big fun also over in Nichiren-land

On Sunday, our small group sat down, hit the chugpi, sat for a couple of hours, chanted for ten minutes and went about our business. No extraneous words, just silence. It was a cold, gray morning, with some snow flurries here and there. Absolutely glorious!

We meet wednesdays

Haha! I wasn't going to drag you folks into my inferiority complex, but I thought of you, for sure.

We meet on Wednesdays, as well. Many years ago, we did Tuesdays and Thursdays too. Things change. Our Sangha is as healthy as it has been in a while. Some young energy has arrived, and it is somewhat diverse in terms of age and race, which really helps. Lots of different perspectives and desired directions. But, the practice is the uniting factor. It's a relatively small but committed group, with plenty of opportunities to mingle with our other East Coast Sanghas.

And Zoom has really widened those opportunities, though I much prefer flesh and blood over pixels on a screen. Our morning zoom group is actually composed of all non-local people. There are usually at least 5 or 6 of us, from as far away as Poland.

[narhwal90]

Our sangha is geographically diverse, zoom has made the regular meetings quite a bit more efficient. We had a sesshin a couple weeks ago, zoom the whole time which worked pretty well, though oryoki was maybe a bit clumsy. There have been a few occasions for several of us to meet in-person which is very welcome.