Realization and realized masters

Malcolm
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:08 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:06 am
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:31 am I don’t think that is the understanding in the Zen tradition. (This is a Zen forum.) Can you provide references?
I received these teachings in the grounds and paths material, I believe it's from Asanga in the abhidharma-samuccaya. Malcolm will know far more than me here though.

It's also in the dharmagupta vinaya
Can you or Malcolm provide the text (or a pointer to its location) which states that Pratyeka Buddhas cannot appear “while Sakyamuni's dharma is existent” I know of no Zen teacher or text that states such a thing.
It's basic buddhism.
II. I. The Period In Which No Buddha Exists
Paccekabuddhas are said to exist only in periods when there are no Buddhas. “A person realises Paccekabodhi only when reborn at a time when there is no Buddha” (S-a III 189 and 208). Other expressions to denote this period are: ”the time which lies between (the appearances of) a Lord” (A-a I 194); ”a period in which no Teacher has appeared” (Pv-a III 144); and “the period between the Buddha (-periods)” (A-a II 192). One of the main characteristics of the Paccekabuddha’s career is that he attains insight during such a period. But this does not mean that his whole aspiration to enlightenment is restricted to this time; it is invariably a matter of many existences of hard work, during which he practises the perfections and accumulates the conditions for enlightenment.
https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh305_Kloppe ... entary.pdf, pg. 41.

We are in the period of Buddha Śakyamuni, hence there are no prayekabuddhas in our age.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Genjo Conan »

A couple of quick notes (I'm a Soto Zen practitioner, FWIW):

1) Consistent with what Malcolm and Lobsang Chojor wrote, my understanding is that pratyekabuddhas only arise outside of the dispensation of a Buddha. Since we are still within Sakyamuni's dispensation, no pratyekabuddhas. I don't think this is a Zen or not-Zen thing.

2) When we talk about Huineng, I think we have to be careful about describing his initial experience on hearing the Diamond Sutra as "enlightenment"--at least not in the annutarasamyaksambodhi sense.

For starters, I'm not aware of any translation or commentary that describes it thus: for example, Red Pine writes:
"After he took the delivery and paid me, I walked toward the door and met a customer reciting the Diamond Sutra out loud. As soon as I heard the words, my mind felt clear and awake . . . ."
The Buddhist Text Translation Society renders the same passage as "Hui Neng’s mind immediately opened to enlightenment."

Maybe more importantly, when Huineng went to Hongren, he still felt like something was missing:
"Master Hung-jen asked me, ‘Where are you from? And what exactly do you hope to get from me by coming to this mountain to pay your respects?’ I answered, ‘Your disciple is from Lingnan, a commoner of Hsinchou. The reason I came all this way to pay my respects is I want to be a buddha. I don’t want anything else.’ (Red Pine)
"Hui Neng replied, “Your disciple is a commoner from Hsin Chou in Ling Nan and comes from afar to bow to the Master, seeking only to be a Buddha, and nothing else.” (BTTS)
It's very difficult to say exactly what sort of opening Huineng had on hearing the Diamond Sutra. Clearly it was profound, but does it map onto, for example, modern notions of an initial kensho? Was it something deeper than that? I don't know. We have to remember, moreover, that we don't know what sort of karmic conditioning Huineng had leading up to that moment. In any case, I'd be extremely reluctant to take Huineng's experience as any sort of model for practice.

3) I do think think that having a teacher is extremely important, not just for Zen practice but for Buddhist practice period. I'm not going to go rooting around in Shobogenzo to find the quote, but Dogen at one point wrote something like "If you can't find a real teacher, it's better not to practice at all." I don't know if I'd go that far--though he was Dogen and I'm not--but it's important. Can one become "enlightened" without a teacher? I don't know. Ultimately I think we all do the best we can under the circumstances that we have. What can you do right now?
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Matt J
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matt J »

Not sure why it matters since pratyeka buddhas don't have a complete understanding of emptiness and is thus an inferior vehicle to Zen-- see the Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala or the Shobogenzo, or basically any Zen teaching involving them.
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:08 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:06 am
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:31 am I don’t think that is the understanding in the Zen tradition. (This is a Zen forum.) Can you provide references?
I received these teachings in the grounds and paths material, I believe it's from Asanga in the abhidharma-samuccaya. Malcolm will know far more than me here though.

It's also in the dharmagupta vinaya
Can you or Malcolm provide the text (or a pointer to its location) which states that Pratyeka Buddhas cannot appear “while Sakyamuni's dharma is existent” I know of no Zen teacher or text that states such a thing.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Astus
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Astus »

Pratyekabuddhas don't matter much, as their realisation is a limited one.

From Huangbo:

'Those who for the most part attain awakening by hearing the teachings are called “śrāvakas.” Those who attain awakening by contemplating causes and conditions are called “pratyekabuddhas.” Even though you reach the attainment of buddhahood, if that does not derive from awakening to your own mind, you would also be called a “śrāvaka buddha.” Many of you practitioners of the Way awaken to the doctrinal teachings but have not awakened to the mind dharma. Even if you practice in this way for successive kalpas, this will never be the original buddha.'
...
'Śrāvakas see the production of ignorance and the extinction of ignorance. Pratyekabuddhas see only the extinction of ignorance but not the production of ignorance, so they realize tranquil extinction thought after thought. All the buddhas see sentient beings produced all day long without ever being produced and extinguished all day long without ever being extinguished. To be free from both production and extinction is the fruition of the Mahāyāna.'
(A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 1.7; 2.43)

Regarding Huineng's awakening, both before and after meeting Hongren it was the Diamond Sutra that brought him realisation. As the story is told in the first chapter of the Platform Sutra:

"At one time, a customer bought some firewood and had me deliver it to his shop, where he took it and paid me. On my way out of the gate I saw someone38 reciting a sutra, and as soon as I heard the words of the sutra my mind opened forth in enlightenment. I then asked the person what sutra he was reciting, and he said, ‘The Diamond Sutra.’"
...
"The patriarch kept his robe (kaṣāya) hidden and would not let anyone see it. He preached the Diamond Sutra for me. When he reached the words ‘responding to the nonabiding, yet generating the mind’56 I experienced a great enlightenment, [realizing that] all the myriad dharmas do not transcend their self-natures."
(BDK ed, p 17 & 23)

The story of Yongjia Xuanjue, who attained awakening by reading the Vimalakirti Sutra, is a good example of the general view on the role of teacher in most Chan literature. It's not really about transmitting but rather verifying awakening.

Chan Master Yongjia Xuanjue was from the Zai family of Wenzhou (Yongjia Xian, Zhejiang). When he was young, he studied the sutras and śāstras and trained in the teaching of cessation and contemplation (i.e., concentration and insight meditation) of Tiantai. Through reading the Vimalakīrti Sutra he illuminated his mind-ground. Coincidentally, he visited and discussed [the Dharma] with the master’s student Xuance. Everything he said was in implicit accord with the [teachings of the] patriarchs.
Xuance said, “From whom did you attain the Dharma?”
[Xuanjue] said, “I heard that there is a succession of teachers for the Mahayana sutras and śāstras. Later I became enlightened to the central doctrine of the mind of the Buddha [by reading] the Vimalakīrti Sutra. As yet, no one has verified [my realization].”
Xuance said, “‘Attained prior to King Sounds of Dignity; becoming enlightened oneself without a teacher after King Sounds of Dignity.’ In both cases, this was the heretical path of naturalism.”
[Xuanjue] said, “May I request that you verify [my realization]?”
Xuance said, “My words carry no weight, but in Caoqi there is the Sixth Patriarch, Great Master [Huineng]. [Students] assemble there from the four directions like clouds. You would certainly receive his Dharma, and if you would go there I will accompany you.”

(Platform Sutra, ch 7, BDK ed, p 67-68)

On the expression yixin yinxin 以心印心 (lit. 'stamp (yin) mind with mind') the Historical Dictionary of Chan Buddhism has this:

'The crucial element in this expression is the word yin. As a verb, yin involves the meanings “to accord or to harmonize with each other,” “to verify each other,” and so forth. For Huangbo Xiyun, the transmission from mind to mind must be understood as the mutual realization or verification of enlightenment. The mind of the master and the mind of the disciple are brought into harmony or accord by each one’s enlightenment. This is the true meaning of transmission. The verification (yin) of enlightenment cannot be understood as merely interior. It must be characterized as neither interior nor exterior, since it can never be cut off from, or confined to, one side or the other. It is the existential-practical transformation of the entire personhood through everyday activities.'
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by HePo »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:02 pm A couple of quick notes (I'm a Soto Zen practitioner, FWIW):
.....

3) I do think think that having a teacher is extremely important, not just for Zen practice but for Buddhist practice period. I'm not going to go rooting around in Shobogenzo to find the quote, but Dogen at one point wrote something like "If you can't find a real teacher, it's better not to practice at all." I don't know if I'd go that far--though he was Dogen and I'm not--but it's important. Can one become "enlightened" without a teacher? I don't know. Ultimately I think we all do the best we can under the circumstances that we have. What can you do right now?
-"If you can't find a real teacher, it's better not to practice at all."
Dogen wrote this in Gakudo Yojin-Shu, Points to Watch in Buddhist Training around 1234, Shobogenzo was written between 1243 and 1245.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:23 pm
It's basic buddhism.
II. I. The Period In Which No Buddha Exists
Paccekabuddhas are said to exist only in periods when there are no Buddhas. “A person realises Paccekabodhi only when reborn at a time when there is no Buddha” (S-a III 189 and 208). Other expressions to denote this period are: ”the time which lies between (the appearances of) a Lord” (A-a I 194); ”a period in which no Teacher has appeared” (Pv-a III 144); and “the period between the Buddha (-periods)” (A-a II 192). One of the main characteristics of the Paccekabuddha’s career is that he attains insight during such a period. But this does not mean that his whole aspiration to enlightenment is restricted to this time; it is invariably a matter of many existences of hard work, during which he practises the perfections and accumulates the conditions for enlightenment.
https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh305_Kloppe ... entary.pdf, pg. 41.

We are in the period of Buddha Śakyamuni, hence there are no prayekabuddhas in our age.
Malcolm, Thank you for the link. It’s quite interesting and I’ll have to spend some time examining it further. It seems to rely on commentaries to the Pali Suttas, but the few references to Paccekabuddhas that I could find in the Suttas only reference the names of past Paccekabuddhas and that they’re worthy of stupas. I could find no mention of limitations to when they could appear.

Nevertheless, the OP’s question was whether realization is possible without a realized teacher, so the existence of Pratyeka Buddhas of the past and the potential of Pratyeka Buddhas in the future seems to answer the question in the positive.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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clyde
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Astus, Interesting!

According to Huangpo those who “attain awakening by hearing the teachings are called ‘śrāvakas.’”

According to Huineng, “I heard the words of the sutra my mind opened forth in enlightenment” and later that upon hearing “the words ‘responding to the nonabiding, yet generating the mind’ I experienced a great enlightenment”.

Does this mean that Huineng was a śrāvaka?


N.B. Interesting that the Pali Suttas begin “Thus have I heard”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Astus
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:35 amAccording to Huangpo those who “attain awakening by hearing the teachings are called ‘śrāvakas.’”
That's more like a play with words: sound/voice of the teaching (sheng jiao 聲教) and sound/voice hearer (sheng wen 聲聞), the latter being a term for sravaka. It's also about emphasising awakening by insight into one's own mind. Huangbo also says, 'There are those who, on hearing the dharma, attain no-mind in a single moment of thought.' And more interestingly, 'The dharma he preaches is neither preached nor revealed, and those who hear that dharma neither hear nor attain anything. It is as if a magician preaches the dharma to people he has conjured. How can I say that I comprehended or awakened to this dharma upon hearing the words of a spiritual mentor (kalyāṇamitra)?'
Does this mean that Huineng was a śrāvaka?
No.

'Good friends, if you wish to enter into the profound dharmadhātu and the samādhi of prajñā, you must cultivate the practice of prajñā and recite the Diamond Sutra. Thus will you attain seeing the nature.'
...
'If a person of the Mahayana or a person of the Supreme Vehicle hears this explanation of the Diamond Sutra, his mind will open forth in enlightened understanding.'

(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)

The main point is that one should put the words of the teachings into action, i.e. actively look into one's own nature as the teachings instruct everyone.

'To recite it orally without practicing it in the mind is [as unreal] as a phantasm or hallucination, [and as evanescent] as dew or lightning. To recite it orally and practice it mentally is for mind and mouth to correspond. The fundamental nature is buddha. There is no other buddha apart from this nature.'
(ch 2, p 28)

Also, Huineng said about one of his poems (but can be applied to the whole scripture):

'Good friends, you should all recite this. If you practice according to it, you will see the nature through hearing these words. Although you may be a thousand li away from me, it will be as if you are constantly by my side. If you do not become enlightened through these words, then why have you gone to the trouble of coming a thousand li to see me?'
(ch 6, p 53)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by seeker242 »

but can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
Yes, especially so if you have met and practiced with a good teacher in your previous life. :) But of course, having a good teacher now is always better than not having any. However, one should not be so quick to jump to conclusions about teachers you meet. Unless one already has some experience, one could easily be wrong when declaring a teacher to be "unrealized". And nearly impossible to declare if you have never met them in person.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:09 am Nevertheless, the OP’s question was whether realization is possible without a realized teacher, so the existence of Pratyeka Buddhas of the past and the potential of Pratyeka Buddhas in the future seems to answer the question in the positive.
Well, you see, even pratyekabuddhas trained under a buddha, so yes, a realized teacher is still needed.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matt J »

In the context of Zen. From a Zen POV, shravaka and pratyeka buddhas are considered lesser vehicles.
clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:09 am
Nevertheless, the OP’s question was whether realization is possible without a realized teacher, so the existence of Pratyeka Buddhas of the past and the potential of Pratyeka Buddhas in the future seems to answer the question in the positive.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

People theoretically thinking they can avoid the need for teacher and sangha relationships “because patekyabuddhas” is delusional.

We should be willing to open ourselves to these relationships, even if they aren’t directly available at the time. Just being willing to do that is part of the view necessary for the path.

Trying to find doctrinal excuses for not doing this is kind of unhealthy, IMO. I mean, people’s own practice and willingness to independently pursue stuff is great, but when it becomes a reason to avoid contact it’s not a great thing IMO and would be a kind of obstruction to practice.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:47 pm People theoretically thinking they can avoid the need for teacher and sangha relationships “because patekyabuddhas” is delusional.
Actually, the Buddha (as reported in the Pali Suttas) was clear that “Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:47 pm People theoretically thinking they can avoid the need for teacher and sangha relationships “because patekyabuddhas” is delusional.
Actually, the Buddha (as reported in the Pali Suttas) was clear that “Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life.”
Not sure what your point is here.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by clyde »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:06 am
clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:18 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:47 pm People theoretically thinking they can avoid the need for teacher and sangha relationships “because patekyabuddhas” is delusional.
Actually, the Buddha (as reported in the Pali Suttas) was clear that “Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life.”
Not sure what your point is here.
Reaffirming your point that one should not avoid sanghas.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Matylda »

LucasGP wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:47 pm Hey everyone.

So, I was wondering about Zen. In my country (Brazil), is still spreading, but at the most is that zen beatnik-like and shit... Anyway... This got me wondering, I know it's hard to find an realized teacher (please, let's not get into the sense of the word realization and zazen being useless etc, it's not the point here) but can one achieve realization in Zen even if one cannot find any realized teacher?
no
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Realization=
Realizing things aren’t real
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:07 pm
clyde wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:09 am Nevertheless, the OP’s question was whether realization is possible without a realized teacher, so the existence of Pratyeka Buddhas of the past and the potential of Pratyeka Buddhas in the future seems to answer the question in the positive.
Well, you see, even pratyekabuddhas trained under a buddha, so yes, a realized teacher is still needed.
Also, pratyekabuddhas occur when the causes and conditions for self-realization occur. When those conditions aren’t there, it’s like trying to boil water without heat.

50,000 years ago, you could cross by land from Asia to what is now North America. Today, you need to rely on a boat or a plane. You can’t do it just by yourself.

Likewise is the necessity for dharma teachers who can show you how to fly from plant A to point B.
The conditions for attaining realization of one’s innate Buddha nature are always changing, even if one’s innate Buddha-nature itself is constant.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:59 pm 50,000 years ago, you could cross by land from Asia to what is now North America. Today, you need to rely on a boat or a plane. You can’t do it just by yourself.
You couldn't do it by yourself at the time either.
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Re: Realization and realized masters

Post by jimmi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:59 pm Also, pratyekabuddhas occur when the causes and conditions for self-realization occur.
Had Shakyamuni Buddha not decided to teach he would have been/remained a pratyekabuddha, no?
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