Zazen and emptiness

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Rick
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Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

Is zazen emptiness?
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Malcolm
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:08 pm Is zazen emptiness?
The real question is, is there anything that isn't?
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

Tathata?

Dogen said zazen is enlightenment. Would he also have said zazen is emptiness?

Is the act of doing zazen (correctly) as close as one can get to 'doing'/embodying emptiness?
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Malcolm
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:17 pm Tathata?

Dogen said zazen is enlightenment. Would he also have said zazen is emptiness?

Is the act of doing zazen (correctly) as close as one can get to 'doing'/embodying emptiness?
Tathāta = śunyatā. They are synonyms.
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

I didn't know that!

What about the other part:

Is "Zazen is enlightenment" (more or less) the same as "Zazen is emptiness?" Or am I making a categorical error?
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Malcolm
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:39 pm I didn't know that!

What about the other part:

Is "Zazen is enlightenment" (more or less) the same as "Zazen is emptiness?" Or am I making a categorical error?
There is no awakening sans realizing emptiness.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:17 pm Tathata?

Dogen said zazen is enlightenment. Would he also have said zazen is emptiness?

Is the act of doing zazen (correctly) as close as one can get to 'doing'/embodying emptiness?
Tathāta = śunyatā. They are synonyms.
I don't mean to take this too off track, especially in the zen forum, but don't Shentongpa's say Tathata is empty of everything other than itself? So for them does Tathata not equal Sunyata? Or would they still say Tathata = Sunyata?
Way-Fun
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

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"In this lineage of Soto Zen, we say “realized practice.” Practice does not bring
about any “end.” We practice practising for the sake of practice, and unfold practice
within practice. We realize practice through practice. We practice our life and realize our
life. Our life is the practice of realization. When we breathe, we breathe for the sake of
breathing. There is a breath; we breathe in, we breathe out. And when we practice, we
don’t try to get anywhere else, or become something else, because practice of the
Buddhaway is not a technique, it’s not a method. It’s simply the unfolding of what is.

- Anzan Hoshin roshi
Is the act of doing zazen (correctly) as close as one can get to 'doing'/embodying emptiness?
From the non-perspective of realized practice, zazen cannot be done incorrectly.
From the non-perspective of realized practice, there is no getting close.

However:
"When you walk the Way
It is not near, it is not far.
But if you are confused,
Mountains and rivers block your Way."
Malcolm
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:50 pm [ Or would they still say Tathata = Sunyata?
They would still say tathatā is śūnyatā because it is devoid of everything that is not a quality of buddhahood.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

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Emptiness is an all-pervading characteristic of reality. It's not a practice or a state of mind per se

Emptiness (shunyata) is the condition of lacking independent origination. All of reality is "empty of impossible ways of being."

It's easy to confuse that with the practice of sitting calmly. But that's not what "emptiness" means in Buddhism.

Of course, coming to a true understanding of emptiness through practice is part of all Buddhist paths.

The implications of words can get confusing can't they?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:12 pm Emptiness is an all-pervading characteristic of reality. It's not a practice or a state of mind per se
That's what I meant when I mentioned the possible categorical error to 'equate' emptiness with practice. Better might be to say that zazen embodies emptiness ... though that runs the risk of reifying the ultimately unreifiable!

Trying to find the right words/analogies/metaphors for the ineffable, it's kind of my thing, alas. ;-)
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

Way-Fun wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:54 pm
Is the act of doing zazen (correctly) as close as one can get to 'doing'/embodying emptiness?
From the non-perspective of realized practice, zazen cannot be done incorrectly.
From the non-perspective of realized practice, there is no getting close.
The last time I used 'realized' in a sentence about myself it was something like: "I suddenly realized I'm an idjit!"
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:40 pm
Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:39 pm I didn't know that!
Is "Zazen is enlightenment" (more or less) the same as "Zazen is emptiness?" Or am I making a categorical error?
There is no awakening sans realizing emptiness.
When Dogen said "Zazen is enlightenment" was he basically saying "Zazen is the realization of emptiness?"
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KeithA
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by KeithA »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:08 pm Is zazen emptiness?
I might suggest that zazen is zazen. Drinking water is drinking water. As Malcolm said, emptiness pervades everything.
“The wind was flapping the temple flag. Two monks were arguing about it. One said the flag was moving; the other said the wind was moving. Arguing back and forth they could not agree on the truth. The Sixth Patriarch said, ‘It is neither the wind that is moving nor the flag that is moving. It is your mind that is moving’. The two monks were struck with awe”
From the Shibayama translation.
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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seeker242
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by seeker242 »

"Shikantaza is to practice or actualize emptiness." ~Shunryū Suzuki

Of course most people don't actually have the ability to practice Shikantaza correctly.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Way-Fun
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Way-Fun »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:26 pm When Dogen said "Zazen is enlightenment" was he basically saying "Zazen is the realization of emptiness?"
I wouldn't put it that way.

Zazen fully realized is the realization of emptiness.
Which is to say that zazen fully realized is the realization of zazen.

You practice zazen and realize you.
Zazen practices you and realizes zazen.
Emptiness practices emptiness and realizes emptiness.
Zazen practices zazen and realizes zazen.
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:50 am "Shikantaza is to practice or actualize emptiness." ~Shunryū Suzuki

Of course most people don't actually have the ability to practice Shikantaza correctly.
There ya go. That's what I was trying to say, only about zazen.

Shikantaza's got to be one of the hardest practices to master, especially if you try to do it on your own with no formal instruction! (Not that I ever tried and failed miserably to do this.)
Last edited by Rick on Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

Way-Fun wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:57 am You practice zazen and realize you.
Zazen practices you and realizes zazen.
Emptiness practices emptiness and realizes emptiness.
Zazen practices zazen and realizes zazen.
Ummmmmmmmm ... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa??!!!! :tantrum:
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Rick
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by Rick »

KeithA wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:12 am zazen is zazen
Hard to find a bone to pick with that! ;-)
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Re: Zazen and emptiness

Post by master of puppets »

Rick wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:08 pm Is zazen emptiness?
Zazen is (done) to realize Buddha yet still Buddha's teaching is Emptiness.
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