What is not delusion
-
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:41 pm
What is not delusion
What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
Re: What is not delusion
I see an Android tablet on the desk in front of me. What does an ant see? Which of us has identified it correctly, without delusion?
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17071
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: What is not delusion
yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
Phenomena are empty and dependently originated, the way we perceive them is delusion. Sense data unmediated by conceptual thought is at least a little closer to direct perception. However, even there what we are perceiving is dependently originated, and once the conceptual mind reifies it into "that orange", "that car" etc. it is delusional to some degree by definition, because "that orange" "that car" exist as a collection of causes and conditions, and not of and within themselves.The Heart Sutra wrote:Shariputra, all Dharmas are empty of characteristics.
They are not produced, not destroyed, not defiled, not pure;
and they neither increase nor diminish.
So it's really less about what we see than how we see.
You can see part of the cognitive error in your question, you're asking about sounds and smells as if they exist independent of an observer, a sound or smell is only what it is once there is a hearer or smeller, to use a modern way of seeing it they are just waves and particles etc., or however you want to break down a sound or smell into it's parts. Existence of discrete sounds and smells are your perceptions and involve conceptual categorization once they go past raw sense data (which happens very quickly), they are not objects floating around outside of you.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: What is not delusion
Without getting bogged down, I think it is pretty simple.
Whatever we sense in our lives, including our dreams, is the only reality we have. Reality is 'of the monent'.
The extent to which all equally lacks reality is matched by the extent to which it is also all equally real.
So reality and delusion are concepts we should ditch at the earliest opportunity and just allow experience without imposing thought.
That is the only hope we have of experiencing our true nature - abandoning this dualistic expectation and interpretation of reality and delusion.
Whatever we sense in our lives, including our dreams, is the only reality we have. Reality is 'of the monent'.
The extent to which all equally lacks reality is matched by the extent to which it is also all equally real.
So reality and delusion are concepts we should ditch at the earliest opportunity and just allow experience without imposing thought.
That is the only hope we have of experiencing our true nature - abandoning this dualistic expectation and interpretation of reality and delusion.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9398
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: What is not delusion
Define “delusion” as you mean ityinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
-
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:07 pm
Re: What is not delusion
What is delusion? Is it quantifiable or qualifiable?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:01 pmDefine “delusion” as you mean ityinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
Re: What is not delusion
The Buddha, after his full enlightenment, heard sounds and smelled smells. Does a Buddha have any delusion? If they did, how could they be called a Buddha?yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
-
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:41 pm
Re: What is not delusion
With delusion I mean not seeing reality how it really isPadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:01 pmDefine “delusion” as you mean ityinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17071
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: What is not delusion
Phenomena aren't delusion themselves, as the Heart Sutra says they ultimately have no characteristics. Delusion is in the seeing. What is not delusion...depends on how you ask and who you ask, you could say Nirvana, the Buddha Nature etc. is what is not delusion.yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:42 pmWith delusion I mean not seeing reality how it really isPadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:01 pmDefine “delusion” as you mean ityinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: What is not delusion
"The mind can be spoken of [in terms of its two aspects]: birth and death, and suchness. The mind as suchness is like a clear mirror which can reflect images. The mirror symbolizes the mind; the images symbolize the dharmas. If the mind grasps at dharmas, then it gets involved in external causes and conditions, which is the meaning of birth and death. If the mind does not grasp at dharmas, that is suchness."yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
(The Record of Ma-tsu, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 67)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9398
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: What is not delusion
I think the main delusion in general Buddhist reckoning is that we see phenomena as more or less permanent and also self-arising.yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:42 pmWith delusion I mean not seeing reality how it really isPadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:01 pmDefine “delusion” as you mean ityinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
By permanent, meaning that we look for lasting satisfaction in things that are not lasting. We buy the latest gadget and a month later we are bored with it.
By self-arising, meaning that we don’t see how phenomena are all interconnected and depend on the context of other phenomena. This especially applies to the experience of “me” or self.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
-
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:41 pm
Re: What is not delusion
So buddhism is also just another story we use to describe what this is. But they are also just stories and concepts. So what is this really? I don't know
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9398
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: What is not delusion
Well, that’s like saying that Newton’s theory of gravity is just another explanation of why apples fall to the ground… as compared with, say, invisible gremlins pulling them off the trees.yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:11 pm So buddhism is also just another story we use to describe what this is. But they are also just stories and concepts. So what is this really? I don't know
Yea, it’s an explanation, but it’s not just arbitrary mindless dogma. Buddhist theory also identifies what is deluded perception and what is not.
Deluded perception arises from a subject-object dichotomy, in which both the observer and what is observed are regarded, by the observer, as wholly self-existent entities rather than as temporary arrangements of phenomena.
But there is a reason for this theory, which is to eliminate the “suffering” that comes from deluded perception. “Suffering” (dukkha) refers to a state of mind which is not at peace with how things are. Abs this is pretty universal.
Based on that delusion, beings cling to this and that, and to the experience of “me” as unchanging entities. But since such things are always changing, such clinging ultimately leads to “suffering”.
It applies to almost every situation at some point. Even the satisfaction from a pleasant situation, such as eating your favorite food, is conditional. If all you could ever eat again was that food, you would soon grow to hate it. If you were eating that favorite food, and then received some terrible news, that food would not make you happy.
The point of these examples is that delusion is the perception that the source of satisfaction, or happiness, or “not suffering” lies within the objects we perceive. In other words, objects perceived by the mind.
But Buddhist theory argues that the source of satisfaction is found within the mind itself. As it so happens, the source of delusion is also the mind. Buddhist methodology is to work directly with the mind (meditation, etc). In order to cut through delusion.
So, to answer the question, “what is not delusion” , what isn’t delusion is that perception of things as they really are, and not necessarily only how we think they are or wish them to be. How do we know the true nature of things? By analyzing them, which always reveals that things possess no satisfaction-producing self-nature that can be clung to, but that they only arise temporarily and conditionally.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: What is not delusion
WHAT IS NOT DELUSION ( Toknow)
Yes, I am apt to agree with the previous post which more or less defined delusion as seeing something that is 'not its true or intended nature'. Of course, there are degrees of delusion and also even in its 'delusionary' form an object still may serve a reasonable purpose. In MB (Mahayana Buddhism) 'ordinary' folk are considered to rely completely on their ordinary, or 'deluded mind' whilst an enlightened being can rely on his / her enlightened mind (both minds being mutually inclusive in any one individual). The 'deluded mind' - or 'lesser mind'- sees objects having a form and a nature - such objects being separate entities in time and space. This I guess refers to the world of appearances, where such constructs are classified, categorized, etc with the causal relationships between them being reinforced over time according to the conceptions and perceptions of one's 'ordinary mind'.
Of course, I guess, as even so called physical matter is ultimately devoid of an underlying fixed reality, we could say they our thoughts and ideas about them are 'delusionary'. However, if they serve some purpose which brings us some sense of purpose etc, I guess we could say we aren't overly concerned?
{Detracting for a sec, though such phenomena may be devoid of any 'permanence', it's still a 'something' - and seemingly a something which can transcend final death - I know it's a little depressing to think that we are a kind of nothing - but it guarantees our survival)
A prominent priest describes life as an 'elusive reality that transcends the concepts of thoughts and concepts - it exhibits both the qualities of existence and non-existence, but in essence, it is neither' He also emphasises this point with the quote "Life is like a phantom, like a magically conjured image"
However, when one's (sorry if you know this stuff already - I'm trying to steer it to a point I wish to make) innate 'enlightened' mind is aroused and emerges, one's ordinary mind, along with its illusory distinctions, meanings and categories of phenomena being considered as distinct entities separated in time and space,(and phenomena having distinct natures) either is driven into latency and or 'takes on the same nature of the enlightened mind'.
What the two minds perceive, of course, are very different. It is said the 'enlightened mind perceives the nature of the universe as exactly as it is'. They occasionally call it the 'land of the unconditioned' for I guess the delusional, distorted, 'belief plagued', karma influenced etc aspect of the 'ordinary mind' have zero influence here.
Just briefly, many feel the world cannot simply be of just appearances and 'constructs' - Kant posits the idea of a source / essence from which appearances arise - for, as he says, 'without an essence (cause), if the world were solely 'appearances', it would be indistinguishable from a dream'
However, it has been argued that this may itself be delusory thinking, because the 'appearances' and their 'essence' are 2 aspects of the one phenomena, arguably a phenomena that can exist in and of itself. (I know this is a contentious point)
Anyway, my own thinking is that 'delusion' is here to stay. So we may not have a fixed, unchanging reality - people can still be happy and get by etc and we are not bound to permanently passing away, in the traditional dictionary sense of the word. Moreover, it seems we can aspire to the greatest happiness of all (enlightenment) - and even it, sublime, noble and exalted as it may be, still has been said (depending on sects etc) to be ultimately devoid of any discernible nature.
I'd just like to add (though off topic again), the priest Nichiren (if I recall correctly) included 'illusion' as part of his idea of Reality. For him, as far as I can remember, 'enlightenment, delusion, illusion, 'void', 'Ku', 'temporal' / non-substantial phenomena etc all come under the heading of 'Reality' since all are, in the final analysis, manifestations of life. Regards
Yes, I am apt to agree with the previous post which more or less defined delusion as seeing something that is 'not its true or intended nature'. Of course, there are degrees of delusion and also even in its 'delusionary' form an object still may serve a reasonable purpose. In MB (Mahayana Buddhism) 'ordinary' folk are considered to rely completely on their ordinary, or 'deluded mind' whilst an enlightened being can rely on his / her enlightened mind (both minds being mutually inclusive in any one individual). The 'deluded mind' - or 'lesser mind'- sees objects having a form and a nature - such objects being separate entities in time and space. This I guess refers to the world of appearances, where such constructs are classified, categorized, etc with the causal relationships between them being reinforced over time according to the conceptions and perceptions of one's 'ordinary mind'.
Of course, I guess, as even so called physical matter is ultimately devoid of an underlying fixed reality, we could say they our thoughts and ideas about them are 'delusionary'. However, if they serve some purpose which brings us some sense of purpose etc, I guess we could say we aren't overly concerned?
{Detracting for a sec, though such phenomena may be devoid of any 'permanence', it's still a 'something' - and seemingly a something which can transcend final death - I know it's a little depressing to think that we are a kind of nothing - but it guarantees our survival)
A prominent priest describes life as an 'elusive reality that transcends the concepts of thoughts and concepts - it exhibits both the qualities of existence and non-existence, but in essence, it is neither' He also emphasises this point with the quote "Life is like a phantom, like a magically conjured image"
However, when one's (sorry if you know this stuff already - I'm trying to steer it to a point I wish to make) innate 'enlightened' mind is aroused and emerges, one's ordinary mind, along with its illusory distinctions, meanings and categories of phenomena being considered as distinct entities separated in time and space,(and phenomena having distinct natures) either is driven into latency and or 'takes on the same nature of the enlightened mind'.
What the two minds perceive, of course, are very different. It is said the 'enlightened mind perceives the nature of the universe as exactly as it is'. They occasionally call it the 'land of the unconditioned' for I guess the delusional, distorted, 'belief plagued', karma influenced etc aspect of the 'ordinary mind' have zero influence here.
Just briefly, many feel the world cannot simply be of just appearances and 'constructs' - Kant posits the idea of a source / essence from which appearances arise - for, as he says, 'without an essence (cause), if the world were solely 'appearances', it would be indistinguishable from a dream'
However, it has been argued that this may itself be delusory thinking, because the 'appearances' and their 'essence' are 2 aspects of the one phenomena, arguably a phenomena that can exist in and of itself. (I know this is a contentious point)
Anyway, my own thinking is that 'delusion' is here to stay. So we may not have a fixed, unchanging reality - people can still be happy and get by etc and we are not bound to permanently passing away, in the traditional dictionary sense of the word. Moreover, it seems we can aspire to the greatest happiness of all (enlightenment) - and even it, sublime, noble and exalted as it may be, still has been said (depending on sects etc) to be ultimately devoid of any discernible nature.
I'd just like to add (though off topic again), the priest Nichiren (if I recall correctly) included 'illusion' as part of his idea of Reality. For him, as far as I can remember, 'enlightenment, delusion, illusion, 'void', 'Ku', 'temporal' / non-substantial phenomena etc all come under the heading of 'Reality' since all are, in the final analysis, manifestations of life. Regards
Re: What is not delusion
Those phenomena don't exist. The delusion is believing or expecting that they do exist in any conventional way of speaking. Sounds and smells and other sensory experiences are pointers to that understanding, available at any time.yinyangkoi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:30 pm What is not delusion? Is there anything? Are the phenomena that happen every moment delusion? The sounds and smells and so on.
Re: What is not delusion
Anything the mind grasps and knows only by intellect is delusion. Anything the mind identifies as internal or external is delusion. When middle ground is grasped by intellect it's delusion.
Reality is that which remains when the mind ceases grasping at all.
What remains is freedom. Delusion falling away feels like dropping off a thousand pounds of chains that have been binding you up. Removing a blindfold, and ear plugs.
The world is ever the same as before, samsara becomes nirvana. The mundane becomes beautiful, every moment is precious, and with no chains binding you, no blindfold blinding you, no earplugs deafening you; you are completely free. Living feels like dancing, the wind is bliss, the sun is bliss, breathing is bliss, silence is bliss, you become peace.
Two cheap slices of bread, and a crappy fake American cheese slice made into a sandwich is the best meal I've ever eaten, and I would pick being able to eat "that sandwich" again over spending the rest of my life dining at the best restaurants in the world.
Reality is that which remains when the mind ceases grasping at all.
What remains is freedom. Delusion falling away feels like dropping off a thousand pounds of chains that have been binding you up. Removing a blindfold, and ear plugs.
The world is ever the same as before, samsara becomes nirvana. The mundane becomes beautiful, every moment is precious, and with no chains binding you, no blindfold blinding you, no earplugs deafening you; you are completely free. Living feels like dancing, the wind is bliss, the sun is bliss, breathing is bliss, silence is bliss, you become peace.
Two cheap slices of bread, and a crappy fake American cheese slice made into a sandwich is the best meal I've ever eaten, and I would pick being able to eat "that sandwich" again over spending the rest of my life dining at the best restaurants in the world.
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Re: What is not delusion
Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:24 pm Without getting bogged down, I think it is pretty simple.
Whatever we sense in our lives, including our dreams, is the only reality we have. Reality is 'of the monent'.
The extent to which all equally lacks reality is matched by the extent to which it is also all equally real.
So reality and delusion are concepts we should ditch at the earliest opportunity and just allow experience without imposing thought.
That is the only hope we have of experiencing our true nature - abandoning this dualistic expectation and interpretation of reality and delusion.
Observe one breath. Was it delusion or realty?
Neither matter. The breath is gone
Nothing matters
except for how we conduct ourselves
M