How to figure out the soluton to a koan

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KeithA
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KeithA »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pm
KeithA wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:55 pm
Maybe a few words about our practice can be useful:

In Korea, there is no such thing as dokusan. The monastic is given a hwadu, such as "what am I", and is left to their own devices to work with it. Dae Seon Sa Nim (the Korean word for Zen Master, and how Kwan Um folks often refer Seung Sahn, the founder of the tradition) borrowed the practice of dokusan from the Japanese. We call them "interviews". There is a basic form to them, usually a quick test, opportunity to ask general questions, then kong an practice. Seung Sahn inherited a very specific way to deal with kong ans. They are presented in a kind of rapid fire way. The idea is to respond in a very spontaneous and natural way. We are also assigned a "homework kong an", which we are asked every time we have an interview, until it is passed.

So, obviously this is very different from working on a single koan until completion. We are instructed to keep a "don't know" mind at all times, which Seung Sahn defined as "putting down our ideas and opinions". Eating, just eat. Driving, just drive. That kind of thing. During sitting, just raise the hwadu "what am I?" Or, "what is this?" The words aren't important, the questioning mind is.

Seung Sahn lost some students early on, because they only knew Japanese style. They disagreed with his method, which is actually very old, despite some of the modifications he made to his native Korean Seon tradition to adapt to his location in Providence, Rhode Island, USA.

Early on, he literally would just make soup and show the students who discovered him a way to practice. It was important to him that they didn't ape Asian culture, but instead develop a tradition that made sense to where they were from. Which is curious to me, because he also had them wearing robes, even long teacher's robes! I wear a long robe, but would only do so at a Kwan Um temple. When Seung Sahn passed away, his lay students didn't wear any robes to the ceremony, which was held in Korea. Anyway, a tradition of Western Zen with Korean roots came into being and is still practiced world wide.

If anyone is interested, a much better explanation of our kong an method can be found here. Dae Kwang Seon Sa Nim has been a very influential teacher for me. It's a bummer for me that he has spent the last decade or so over in Asia.

Anyway, lots of words. If you made it this far down, thank you for reading.

_/|\_
Keith
Thank you for the clarification. However I have a question. It is just pure curiosity. If koans are practiced in the way you have kindly described, then why teachers or inka holders of that school go and visit Japanese rinzai roshis? Long ago I was told by them that they have to have some recognition or 'dharma combat' with 3 teachers from other lineages. But what for? I understand that they may recognize each other within their school or so, due to similar way of practice.

You see I had to translate dokusan for such teachers. And it often turned into misunderstanding, or at least roshi did not know what they are up to. They tried to have some dharma combat, what is inapropriate in a dokusan room in the first place, but otherwise it turned into some comedy of mistakes and so on. Once or twice I was taken by amazment, when I heard that those teachers of your school claimed to be recognized by such or such roshi. Since I was a witness and translator of those events and I knew there was no recognition or confirmation, there was rather surprize and scowling.

So if your people practice koans in their own unique way, what for they try to confront teachers of other traditions, who know nothing about it? And why to claim that they gave any recognition?
Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation. Whenever my teacher has spoken to me about these experiences, it has always been from a pov of one of keeping a wide mind.

I literally have no experience with any other traditions. 20 years with the same group. I have not ever heard of a teacher claiming recognition from another tradition. So, out experience differs. I am lowly student, though. So, maybe there is more to the story.

I sorry that our tradition doesn't meet your obviously very high standards.

🙏
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
Matylda
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Matylda »

KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm
Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation. Whenever my teacher has spoken to me about these experiences, it has always been from a pov of one of keeping a wide mind.

I literally have no experience with any other traditions. 20 years with the same group. I have not ever heard of a teacher claiming recognition from another tradition. So, out experience differs. I am lowly student, though. So, maybe there is more to the story.

I sorry that our tradition doesn't meet your obviously very high standards.

🙏
No I did not mean that. Those people did not come to understand other tradition, but rather to check something or they had their own agenda. And definitely it was not because of any high standards, and it was not my business anyway. I had to translate and I think that it was problem of communication or language, or vocabulary or terms. But what you wrote kindly puts another light on the whole thing. Thank you :)
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by reiun »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:39 pm My teacher gave me a koan: "A goose egg rolls into a bottle. It hatches and grows inside the bottle. It cannot escape cause it's too big. How to get the goose out without breaking the bottle?" My answer was: I shouted and slapped the floor. She said it's not right. How can I figure out the solution? She didn't give me any tips, she said she doesn't want to take away my dharma soup? What does it mean? I am not monastic so I only meet the teacher once a week. How to get the goose out?
I hope you caught KeithA's comment earlier:
Early on, he literally would just make soup and show the students who discovered him a way to practice.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by reiun »

(Regarding privacy of interviews in the Kwan Um School)
Sent to Practice Questions, [email protected]
I participate in an online forum where a topic regarding KUZ guidelines for discussing kung-an practice, in comparison to Zen or Chan schools, is now active. It would be most helpful if you could provide any information, especially regarding privacy and confidentiality on this specific topic, and if public discussion is permitted.
Received a request for more info, then a summary reply. To paraphrase, they encourage their students not to talk about answers to koans. Sometimes they talk about how to approach them or how they are used in different traditions.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Meido »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:43 pm What Keith wrote about the approach to the koan practice in this school makes sense. So I honestly appraciate it and anyway should say thanks, since a riddle of many years is somehow resolved.
Yes, exactly. The incident I mentioned had puzzled me. Now it's more clear what was going on, I appreciate it.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by reiun »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pm
KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm If anyone is interested, a much better explanation of our kong an method can be found here. Dae Kwang Seon Sa Nim has been a very influential teacher for me. It's a bummer for me that he has spent the last decade or so over in Asia.

Anyway, lots of words. If you made it this far down, thank you for reading.

_/|\_
Keith
Thank you for the clarification. However I have a question. It is just pure curiosity. If koans are practiced in the way you have kindly described, then why teachers or inka holders of that school go and visit Japanese rinzai roshis? Long ago I was told by them that they have to have some recognition or 'dharma combat' with 3 teachers from other lineages. But what for? I understand that they may recognize each other within their school or so, due to similar way of practice.
Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pm You see I had to translate dokusan for such teachers. And it often turned into misunderstanding, or at least roshi did not know what they are up to. They tried to have some dharma combat, what is inapropriate in a dokusan room in the first place, but otherwise it turned into some comedy of mistakes and so on.
KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation.

🙏
I guess you must mean 'point of view' in terms of one who is participating as a translator, and views the interaction directly. Not point of view in terms of just an opinion. (The below comment reinforces confrontation as a fact.)
Meido wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:23 pm A woman who described herself as a long-time Kwan Um student came to our place in Chicago years ago, and requested to come into dokusan. She attempted a kind of dharma combat as you describe.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Matylda »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:52 pm I guess you must mean 'point of view' in terms of one who is participating as a translator, and views the interaction directly. Not point of view in terms of just an opinion. (The below comment reinforces confrontation as a fact.)
Yes at least from my side it was like this. You see part of the responsibility roshi would put on me actually. But I tried my best, honestly. Anyway the first strange glance of roshi was at me. It happened more than once with different roshis, and this hard look was saying Are you insane? I mean it meant me, not the other person. Once even roshi asked me Are you ok? Which sounds in Japanese like a serious worry. There were moments I felt desperate but sometimes I was on the verge of lougher. Seriously. Of course I did not do it, no by no means.

I think that we had general problem with language and semantics, and none of us knew what is going on. We simply did not have this knowledge which Keith has and kindly shared with us. I guess that the translator of Kalu Rinpoche mentioned by Malcolm might be had same problem like me. Just to make it more relax, it is good scenario for a buddhist comedy. How we communicate, what semantics we are using, and all sorts of situations which may appear. It actually happened even with some Japanese and their direct disciples in the West. Outside of dokusan/sanzen time. Like during informal meetings, meals etc. and that was simply different culture problem.

Like giving full cup of tea. It happened. This I remember vividly and I guess it is an interesting example. To give full cup of tea or soup, It is a serious offence in Japan. It is like one wants to draw a sword. Our hosts did not know it and could not see any reaction, but of course I saw. Later I asked why do you give full cup? And they thought, that it was kind or polite. So I did explain, that better with old Japanese roshi, not to do it, and told them why. There was someone who was responsible for tea servings and he told people that he heard from some students of Tibetan lamas that it is very polite to give a full cup of tea. What is better? in fact nothing we just lack sometimes mutual understanding due to very different background, semantics etc.
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KeithA
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KeithA »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:22 pm
KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm
Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation. Whenever my teacher has spoken to me about these experiences, it has always been from a pov of one of keeping a wide mind.

I literally have no experience with any other traditions. 20 years with the same group. I have not ever heard of a teacher claiming recognition from another tradition. So, out experience differs. I am lowly student, though. So, maybe there is more to the story.

I sorry that our tradition doesn't meet your obviously very high standards.

🙏
No I did not mean that. Those people did not come to understand other tradition, but rather to check something or they had their own agenda. And definitely it was not because of any high standards, and it was not my business anyway. I had to translate and I think that it was problem of communication or language, or vocabulary or terms. But what you wrote kindly puts another light on the whole thing. Thank you :)
I trust that is how it was experienced. I suspect there were some cultural mistakes made, but no malice intended.

Our temple has a residential program, and a few years back we had a very nice Chinese student from Yale living in the building. She practiced with us often, and then stopped coming as much . Apparently, we had done something offensive. I never did find out what it was, but we were just culturally insensitive about something. Again, no malice. We aren’t Chinese, so we were ignorant.

Round and round…

I am going to bow out of the conversation. I don’t want to say anything that I will regret later. :yinyang:

Thanks and good luck,
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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KeithA
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KeithA »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:52 pm
Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pm
KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm If anyone is interested, a much better explanation of our kong an method can be found here. Dae Kwang Seon Sa Nim has been a very influential teacher for me. It's a bummer for me that he has spent the last decade or so over in Asia.

Anyway, lots of words. If you made it this far down, thank you for reading.

_/|\_
Keith
Thank you for the clarification. However I have a question. It is just pure curiosity. If koans are practiced in the way you have kindly described, then why teachers or inka holders of that school go and visit Japanese rinzai roshis? Long ago I was told by them that they have to have some recognition or 'dharma combat' with 3 teachers from other lineages. But what for? I understand that they may recognize each other within their school or so, due to similar way of practice.
Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pm You see I had to translate dokusan for such teachers. And it often turned into misunderstanding, or at least roshi did not know what they are up to. They tried to have some dharma combat, what is inapropriate in a dokusan room in the first place, but otherwise it turned into some comedy of mistakes and so on.
KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation.

🙏
I guess you must mean 'point of view' in terms of one who is participating as a translator, and views the interaction directly. Not point of view in terms of just an opinion. (The below comment reinforces confrontation as a fact.)
Meido wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:23 pm A woman who described herself as a long-time Kwan Um student came to our place in Chicago years ago, and requested to come into dokusan. She attempted a kind of dharma combat as you describe.
Oops, I see there were some responses in between that I missed.

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. People can have many different responses while watching the same event.

We are encouraged to test our teachers. I don’t get the big concern about being challenged. Any good teacher will just cut the legs out from under you. Again, I think there is a cultural difference at work here. It’s very much a normal occurrence with us. Maybe not in Japanese style.

🙏
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KeithA »

Matylda wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:22 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:52 pm I guess you must mean 'point of view' in terms of one who is participating as a translator, and views the interaction directly. Not point of view in terms of just an opinion. (The below comment reinforces confrontation as a fact.)
Yes at least from my side it was like this. You see part of the responsibility roshi would put on me actually. But I tried my best, honestly. Anyway the first strange glance of roshi was at me. It happened more than once with different roshis, and this hard look was saying Are you insane? I mean it meant me, not the other person. Once even roshi asked me Are you ok? Which sounds in Japanese like a serious worry. There were moments I felt desperate but sometimes I was on the verge of lougher. Seriously. Of course I did not do it, no by no means.

I think that we had general problem with language and semantics, and none of us knew what is going on. We simply did not have this knowledge which Keith has and kindly shared with us. I guess that the translator of Kalu Rinpoche mentioned by Malcolm might be had same problem like me. Just to make it more relax, it is good scenario for a buddhist comedy. How we communicate, what semantics we are using, and all sorts of situations which may appear. It actually happened even with some Japanese and their direct disciples in the West. Outside of dokusan/sanzen time. Like during informal meetings, meals etc. and that was simply different culture problem.

Like giving full cup of tea. It happened. This I remember vividly and I guess it is an interesting example. To give full cup of tea or soup, It is a serious offence in Japan. It is like one wants to draw a sword. Our hosts did not know it and could not see any reaction, but of course I saw. Later I asked why do you give full cup? And they thought, that it was kind or polite. So I did explain, that better with old Japanese roshi, not to do it, and told them why. There was someone who was responsible for tea servings and he told people that he heard from some students of Tibetan lamas that it is very polite to give a full cup of tea. What is better? in fact nothing we just lack sometimes mutual understanding due to very different background, semantics etc.
Very well written, Matylda . :good:

I agree completely. 🙏
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by PeterC »

KeithA wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:50 pm ...I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation. ...
I've come to the conclusion over the years that there is very, very little merit in mixing and matching. If you're going to practice in tradition X, you do it according to their rules and customs and you follow their procedures. You don't try to reconcile what they're doing with what tradition Y does, because there's really no point trying to relate different systems. This is an unavoidable issue in Tibetan Buddhism, where people often spend time doing one cycle of practice from one lineage, then do another from another lineage. This works absolutely fine if you approach each according to the explanations and procedures of their own lineage. You can't however try to understand a practice in one lineage according to the frame of reference of another if you're serious about practicing it. From an academic perspective, sure, you can compare their terminology, explanations, etc., but that's not practice.

Returning to the broader point of the discussion. I'm not familiar with Seung Sahn's school. I do know some monks who have trained in Korea (originally from other countries) in temples that don't have dokusan. By definition, they're not discussing what goes on in dokusan among themselves, because they don't have that. So if we're talking about whether dokusan should be a private matter not discussed in public - as is the norm in both Japanese and Chinese contexts - then I don't see how Seung Sahn or other Korean schools would be relevant to that discussion. If according to the well-established practices of the lineages who do dokusan, it is meant to be private and not publicly discussed - which it is - then that's how it should be treated on this board, IMHO.

The norm here on this board is that discussions should follow the rules of the lineage whose sub-forum it is. Though this is an interesting thread, I am surprised that moderators let it run past the point where it was first flagged.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by seeker242 »

frankie wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:49 pm To what extent this is realised nowadays, not sure. Although it does appear that lessons have been learnt from the past, which is as should be for any institution moving forward.
To the fullest extent that the person questioning wishes.
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:23 am The norm here on this board is that discussions should follow the rules of the lineage whose sub-forum it is. Though this is an interesting thread, I am surprised that moderators let it run past the point where it was first flagged.
It really wouldn't make sense to not allow it because it is following the rules of the lineage.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by PeterC »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:55 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:23 am The norm here on this board is that discussions should follow the rules of the lineage whose sub-forum it is. Though this is an interesting thread, I am surprised that moderators let it run past the point where it was first flagged.
It really wouldn't make sense to not allow it because it is following the rules of the lineage.
No, it’s not, that’s the point of my post and all of Matylda’s posts.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by seeker242 »

PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:19 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:55 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:23 am The norm here on this board is that discussions should follow the rules of the lineage whose sub-forum it is. Though this is an interesting thread, I am surprised that moderators let it run past the point where it was first flagged.
It really wouldn't make sense to not allow it because it is following the rules of the lineage.
No, it’s not, that’s the point of my post and all of Matylda’s posts.
Yes it is. Japanese does not have a monopoly on zen practice nor should they. Matylda’s posts refer to her lineage and not the lineage of the person asking the questions. The lineage of the person asking the questions is the relevant lineage and it's following the rules of that lineage.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by PeterC »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:19 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:55 am


It really wouldn't make sense to not allow it because it is following the rules of the lineage.
No, it’s not, that’s the point of my post and all of Matylda’s posts.
Yes it is. Japanese does not have a monopoly on zen practice nor should they. Matylda’s posts refer to her lineage and not the lineage of the person asking the questions. The lineage of the person asking the questions is the relevant lineage and it's following the rules of that lineage.
Re-read my post, in particular the second and third paragraphs
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by seeker242 »

PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:19 pm

No, it’s not, that’s the point of my post and all of Matylda’s posts.
Yes it is. Japanese does not have a monopoly on zen practice nor should they. Matylda’s posts refer to her lineage and not the lineage of the person asking the questions. The lineage of the person asking the questions is the relevant lineage and it's following the rules of that lineage.
Re-read my post, in particular the second and third paragraphs
Which particular part of those are you referring to? Do you mean this part?
then I don't see how Seung Sahn or other Korean schools would be relevant to that discussion
The reason why that is relevant is because the person who started the thread, is practicing in Seung Sahn's school, not some Japanese school.

Or this part?
The norm here on this board is that discussions should follow the rules of the lineage whose sub-forum it is.
The forum it's in includes all zen lineages and schools, including Kwan Um. There would be no good reason to exclude Kwan Um. I am very familiar with Seung Sahn's school as I practice in it and no rules are being broken.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Dan74 »

Perhaps it will muddy the waters to introduce yet another perspective.

In the Seon tradition I practiced for 13 years in Australia, my teacher asked me a koan very spontaneously one day. This was sometime after I had given myself a koan, Case 20 from the Book of Equanimity - "Not knowing is the most intimate." It always resonated with me on a deep level, dreamt similar even before I first read it. I sat with it for some years, until it opened up in the Soto group sit I did at the University with a Deshimaru lineage teacher who is now an Orthodox Christian priest and a Professor of Philosophy in South Africa.

They had trouble getting me up from the sit and I was not really talkative either. Never actually discussed it with that teacher or my own teacher for a long time. There didn't seem to be any need to.

What I am saying is that there are very different approaches I think, more formality, less formality, but one thing is clear to me. It is not something to trifle with. It's something we mean with every pore of our being.

And the insight, such as it was, faded with time. That's ok too, I guess..
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by PeterC »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:49 pmThere would be no good reason to exclude Kwan Um. I am very familiar with Seung Sahn's school as I practice in it and no rules are being broken.
Not relevant to this discussion for the reasons above. Read the thread again.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by seeker242 »

PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:08 pm
seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:49 pmThere would be no good reason to exclude Kwan Um. I am very familiar with Seung Sahn's school as I practice in it and no rules are being broken.
Not relevant to this discussion for the reasons above. Read the thread again.
What reasons in particular? I've already read the entire thread since it began. It's entirely relevant. It's the only thing that is relevant. Kwan um students are not obligated to follow Japanese rules nor should they be. You can't break a rule that doesn't exist, it's impossible. Japanese rules are what is not relevant here.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Norwegian »

seeker242 wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:23 pm Kwan um students are not obligated to follow Japanese rules nor should they be. You can't break a rule that doesn't exist, it's impossible. Japanese rules are what is not relevant here.
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:15 pm (Regarding privacy of interviews in the Kwan Um School)
Sent to Practice Questions, [email protected]
I participate in an online forum where a topic regarding KUZ guidelines for discussing kung-an practice, in comparison to Zen or Chan schools, is now active. It would be most helpful if you could provide any information, especially regarding privacy and confidentiality on this specific topic, and if public discussion is permitted.
Received a request for more info, then a summary reply. To paraphrase, they encourage their students not to talk about answers to koans. Sometimes they talk about how to approach them or how they are used in different traditions.
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