Wow, what an interesting point of view. I always understood the practice of working with other traditions as a way broadening one's horizon, not a confrontation. Whenever my teacher has spoken to me about these experiences, it has always been from a pov of one of keeping a wide mind.Matylda wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:21 pmThank you for the clarification. However I have a question. It is just pure curiosity. If koans are practiced in the way you have kindly described, then why teachers or inka holders of that school go and visit Japanese rinzai roshis? Long ago I was told by them that they have to have some recognition or 'dharma combat' with 3 teachers from other lineages. But what for? I understand that they may recognize each other within their school or so, due to similar way of practice.KeithA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:55 pm
Maybe a few words about our practice can be useful:
In Korea, there is no such thing as dokusan. The monastic is given a hwadu, such as "what am I", and is left to their own devices to work with it. Dae Seon Sa Nim (the Korean word for Zen Master, and how Kwan Um folks often refer Seung Sahn, the founder of the tradition) borrowed the practice of dokusan from the Japanese. We call them "interviews". There is a basic form to them, usually a quick test, opportunity to ask general questions, then kong an practice. Seung Sahn inherited a very specific way to deal with kong ans. They are presented in a kind of rapid fire way. The idea is to respond in a very spontaneous and natural way. We are also assigned a "homework kong an", which we are asked every time we have an interview, until it is passed.
So, obviously this is very different from working on a single koan until completion. We are instructed to keep a "don't know" mind at all times, which Seung Sahn defined as "putting down our ideas and opinions". Eating, just eat. Driving, just drive. That kind of thing. During sitting, just raise the hwadu "what am I?" Or, "what is this?" The words aren't important, the questioning mind is.
Seung Sahn lost some students early on, because they only knew Japanese style. They disagreed with his method, which is actually very old, despite some of the modifications he made to his native Korean Seon tradition to adapt to his location in Providence, Rhode Island, USA.
Early on, he literally would just make soup and show the students who discovered him a way to practice. It was important to him that they didn't ape Asian culture, but instead develop a tradition that made sense to where they were from. Which is curious to me, because he also had them wearing robes, even long teacher's robes! I wear a long robe, but would only do so at a Kwan Um temple. When Seung Sahn passed away, his lay students didn't wear any robes to the ceremony, which was held in Korea. Anyway, a tradition of Western Zen with Korean roots came into being and is still practiced world wide.
If anyone is interested, a much better explanation of our kong an method can be found here. Dae Kwang Seon Sa Nim has been a very influential teacher for me. It's a bummer for me that he has spent the last decade or so over in Asia.
Anyway, lots of words. If you made it this far down, thank you for reading.
_/|\_
Keith
You see I had to translate dokusan for such teachers. And it often turned into misunderstanding, or at least roshi did not know what they are up to. They tried to have some dharma combat, what is inapropriate in a dokusan room in the first place, but otherwise it turned into some comedy of mistakes and so on. Once or twice I was taken by amazment, when I heard that those teachers of your school claimed to be recognized by such or such roshi. Since I was a witness and translator of those events and I knew there was no recognition or confirmation, there was rather surprize and scowling.
So if your people practice koans in their own unique way, what for they try to confront teachers of other traditions, who know nothing about it? And why to claim that they gave any recognition?
I literally have no experience with any other traditions. 20 years with the same group. I have not ever heard of a teacher claiming recognition from another tradition. So, out experience differs. I am lowly student, though. So, maybe there is more to the story.
I sorry that our tradition doesn't meet your obviously very high standards.