How to figure out the soluton to a koan

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yinyangkoi
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How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by yinyangkoi »

My teacher gave me a koan: "A goose egg rolls into a bottle. It hatches and grows inside the bottle. It cannot escape cause it's too big. How to get the goose out without breaking the bottle?" My answer was: I shouted and slapped the floor. She said it's not right. How can I figure out the solution? She didn't give me any tips, she said she doesn't want to take away my dharma soup? What does it mean? I am not monastic so I only meet the teacher once a week. How to get the goose out?
jimmi
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by jimmi »

Why did you shout and slap the floor?
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Astus
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Astus »

'Lu Geng first asked Nanquan, "I've raised a goose in a bottle, and it gradually grew too big to get out; now, without damaging the bottle or injuring the goose, how would you get it out?"
Nanquan called to him, "Sir!"
Lu Geng responded, "Yes?"
Nanquan said, "It's out."
Lu Geng was awakened at this.'

(Book of Serenity, commentary to case 91)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Matylda
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Matylda »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:39 pm My teacher gave me a koan: "A goose egg rolls into a bottle. It hatches and grows inside the bottle. It cannot escape cause it's too big. How to get the goose out without breaking the bottle?" My answer was: I shouted and slapped the floor. She said it's not right. How can I figure out the solution? She didn't give me any tips, she said she doesn't want to take away my dharma soup? What does it mean? I am not monastic so I only meet the teacher once a week. How to get the goose out?
Dear Friend

I think you should be aware that it is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing and what happens in a private room with a teacher including koan answers etc. moreover it is difficult to imagine, that anyone is seeking advice of third person concerning koan or koan answer. Please withdraw that kind of improper question.

Best regards

M
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Astus
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Astus »

Matylda wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:40 pmit is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing
What is wrong in it?

Maybe you already know this one, or its Japanese original: The Sound of the One Hand: 281 Zen Koans with Answers
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
reiun
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by reiun »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:39 pm My teacher gave me a koan . . . How can I figure out the solution?
The first step is to develop your practice of zazen, specifically susokan or "breath-counting", to stabilize the mind. You may then get to enter samadhi, a state of meditative absorption. Rinzai Zenji's Four Categories are as follows:

(1) Man is deprived; circumstances are not deprived.
(2) Circumstances are deprived; man is not deprived.
(3) Both man and circumstances are deprived.
(4) Neither man nor circumstances are deprived.

(1) inward concern ("man") is absent ("deprived"); outward concern ("circumstances") dominates ("not deprived"), etc. (per Sekida: Zen Training)

(2) "Circumstances are deprived; man is not deprived" is inward or 'absolute' samadhi (Sekida), which is the foundation of all zazen practice. Koan work further cultivates this stability.

A koan is not something to figure out via intellectual understanding. That should be clear on the face of it. Unless shouting or slapping the floor can be verified as demonstrating insight the work must continue.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KathyLauren »

Astus wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:58 pm
Matylda wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:40 pmit is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing
What is wrong in it?

Maybe you already know this one, or its Japanese original: The Sound of the One Hand: 281 Zen Koans with Answers
Writing about a koan, and especially asking for help with one, encourages the OP to try intellectual solutions, or else to repeat someone else's rehearsed non-intellectual solution. The whole point of a koan is to avoid doing either of those things.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
jimmi
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by jimmi »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:48 pm Writing about a koan, and especially asking for help with one, encourages the OP to try intellectual solutions, or else to repeat someone else's rehearsed non-intellectual solution. The whole point of a koan is to avoid doing either of those things.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
In order to arrive at the essential point/function of the koan it is often necessary, even useful, to burn through one’s intellectual struggles and striving with the koan. Writing about, posting about, asking for answers etc may well be an expression of that burning through. A teacher should be able to handle that element, no?
master of puppets
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by master of puppets »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:39 pm My teacher gave me a koan: "A goose egg rolls into a bottle. It hatches and grows inside the bottle. It cannot escape cause it's too big. How to get the goose out without breaking the bottle?" My answer was: I shouted and slapped the floor. She said it's not right. How can I figure out the solution? She didn't give me any tips, she said she doesn't want to take away my dharma soup? What does it mean? I am not monastic so I only meet the teacher once a week. How to get the goose out?
you want to crib, my friend?? :D
yinyangkoi
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by yinyangkoi »

jimmi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:03 pm Why did you shout and slap the floor?
I didn't know what else to do. I knew there is no intellectual answer to this. So I didn't know and then I just got this idea to do the shouting and slapping. I thought it's about removing all concepts and just presenting something that shows it. And after I doubted everything, I got this idea.
Last edited by yinyangkoi on Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yinyangkoi
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by yinyangkoi »

Matylda wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:40 pm Dear Friend

I think you should be aware that it is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing and what happens in a private room with a teacher including koan answers etc. moreover it is difficult to imagine, that anyone is seeking advice of third person concerning koan or koan answer. Please withdraw that kind of improper question.

Best regards

M
I wasn't aware of this. Also I am not looking for the solution, just how to arrive to it. How will I even know when I have an answer or not? This is my first koan so I have no experience.
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Astus
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Astus »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:48 pmWriting about a koan, and especially asking for help with one, encourages the OP to try intellectual solutions, or else to repeat someone else's rehearsed non-intellectual solution. The whole point of a koan is to avoid doing either of those things.
One goes through all sorts of ways one can come up with before all efforts are exhausted and one gets stuck with pure doubt, if one is actually persistent enough. In the meantime, to learn a thing or two about Zen and the specific koan one works with is no obstacle, especially if the teacher does not approve whatever clever looking solution one comes up with. As long as one puts one's faith in a teacher's judgement, no solution can be found on one's own or from others.

Hyujeong warns:

'There are ten kinds of faults for the points of stories (hwadu): to ponder it with the faculty of intention (manas); to estimate (subtle movements of the mind such as) where you raise eyebrows and blink eyes; to seek your livelihood on the path of language; to draw evidence from writings; to try to be enlightened only where it is raised up; to toss it away into a casket of no concerns; to make understanding (of it in terms) of (it as) existence or non-existence; to make an understanding of (it as) the truly non-existent; to make an understanding of it as reason; and to hold onto delusion and wait to be enlightened. Those who are divorced from these ten kinds of faults, when they simply raise the story, they remove the spirit (of troubles) and just doubt, “What is this?”'
(Seonga gwigam, section 16, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 80)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
yinyangkoi
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by yinyangkoi »

Astus wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:58 pm
Matylda wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:40 pmit is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing
What is wrong in it?

Maybe you already know this one, or its Japanese original: The Sound of the One Hand: 281 Zen Koans with Answers
Is it a good idea to read this? Or will it hinder my practice? Will it just delude me more and move me further from the answer?
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Ayu »

Unlocked after review.
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by reiun »

Astus wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:58 pm
Matylda wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:40 pmit is very very wrong to write about koan practoce one is doing
What is wrong in it?
As Matylda avers, it happens in private, and is intended to be confidential.
Astus wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:58 pm Maybe you already know this one, or its Japanese original: The Sound of the One Hand: 281 Zen Koans with Answers
yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:15 pm Is it a good idea to read this? Or will it hinder my practice? Will it just delude me more and move me further from the answer?
Copying someone else’s presentations will not suffice. Without personal effort one cannot demonstrate personal insight, and will not get by a competent ethical teacher.
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Hazel
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Hazel »

Oh wow, this koan is in the Illuminatus! Trilogy, I didn't realize it was a real koan. I asked it in an interview once.
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

What do you see when you turn out the lights?
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KeithA
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by KeithA »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:39 pm My teacher gave me a koan: "A goose egg rolls into a bottle. It hatches and grows inside the bottle. It cannot escape cause it's too big. How to get the goose out without breaking the bottle?" My answer was: I shouted and slapped the floor. She said it's not right. How can I figure out the solution? She didn't give me any tips, she said she doesn't want to take away my dharma soup? What does it mean? I am not monastic so I only meet the teacher once a week. How to get the goose out?

The point of practice is to save all beings. How does a shout help? If I ask you to pass the salt, and you bang on the table and yell, you didn’t help. And, I am a bit confused! 🤪

The best advice I ever heard about kong an practice is that is has nothing to with right or wrong answer. Just keep going. Be patient, be persistent, and be kind to yourself. An answer will appear.

Oh, and consider it a truly blessed thing that you are able to see your teacher once a week!

🙏
Good luck and thanks for practicing,
Keith
Last edited by KeithA on Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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Astus
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Astus »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:15 pmIs it a good idea to read this? Or will it hinder my practice? Will it just delude me more and move me further from the answer?
If you want to learn how some people a century ago approached koan practice, then it is a useful source. But it is probably not that relevant for anyone just starting to learn Buddhism. As for getting the answer to the original question, you already have it, as the point is to recognise how one's thoughts and feelings react. KeithA gave good advice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by narhwal90 »

As an example of what koan practice was like, my roshi discussed a koan he was given much earlier in his practice. He shared his answer, which of course made sense as we discussed it. I took up the question as a pet project for a while, it is quite tempting to parrot another's answer which was accepted as "correct". I happened to be able to see him a few weeks ago and tried out my own personal answer, he questioned me a bit about it- suggested the action that might be paired with the verbal response if it had been a formal koan exercise and that was that.

The takeaway for me at the moment is that <your> answer is more important. Might be slapping the floor is a good answer to the koan in question, if the practitioner can explain why.
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Astus
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Re: How to figure out the soluton to a koan

Post by Astus »

reiun wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:50 pmit happens in private, and is intended to be confidential.
Sure, it is private and confidential, and it's up to each person whether they want to discuss their private matters. For instance, the modern classic Three Pillars of Zen by Kapleau contains several private interviews and accounts of enlightenment.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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