Hubris?

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frantisek
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Hubris?

Post by frantisek »

Hey there!

I've been trying to get into Zen Buddhism, as it seems to be the most appealing to me in some sense, albeit I don't dare claim any further knowledge about it beyond some very basics. The main reason why I'm attracted to it is it's the only real Buddhist presence around me. I'm not interested in getting into any denominational or sectarian struggle sessions about it, but the main problem I've been struggling with is thinking myself higher than the practitioners there.

I don't know how else to put it, I've been trying to listen to the Dharma talks given at the Zen Center here, and I just don't get much out of them—they remind me of the sermons I'd sit through when I would go to Catholic mass—and I'm not sure what this means.

Of course this calls for serious self-examination, given the people giving the talks seem to be dedicated people of some sort, not sure about the correct terminology, priests? But, nevertheless, they don't seem very edifying for me.

A good example was a recent one which was an off-the-cuff sermon about a "new normalcy", from returning from the previous year of covid—and while I think it's an important topic, as are a lot of the other talks that I've seen, and further I even agree with the politics and such of the talks in some sense— I'm not sure if it's the the intellectual meat that I want to dig into.

Am I just being too prideful? Someone I respect, and who's been a zen practitioner since 2000, at least a year before I was born, has talked about his center and the how the entire practice was oriented around the study of Dogen-zenji's works. Am I being too desirous to want something like that?

Maybe I haven't looked into it enough, but even today, I went to my first Saturday session of zazen and then a service for the retreat they're having today, but I logged off the zoom before the talk as I was afraid the talk would turn me off.

Has anyone else experienced this? Any comments? I think it's just me placing my pride too high, but on the other hand I'm not too sure. I want to live and test the Dharma as "a gold-smith inspects the authenticity of an ingot", but I'm not sure that the center is the best for it. Tear me to shreds if y'all think I've got too much hubris.

Thanks bunches y'all, I appreciate it!
narhwal90
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Re: Hubris?

Post by narhwal90 »

I would offer that its important to look around and not dive in just because a center is nearby. There are many podcasts and sangha's online, its not hard to get into email contact at least, to see if you could attend some sessions and just listen. I like the San Francisco Zen Center podcasts and am very grateful for their continuing effort to produce high quality material- but I am not much interested in formality so likely would not practice there, if for no reason than the size of the operation.

I found the zen sanga I practice with by dharma-stalking the roshi via his blog posts, I liked what he said and how he said it- so sent him an email to see if I could attend his weekly meetings to see if there was a fit, still slugging it out with them a year later. Its a small group, some have never met him in person, I've been fortunate enough to be on travel out his way and have done so. I don't think I'd like to sit and listen for an hour talk- in our group the roshi generally corrals us into choosing a book to study, which we take chapter by chapter. He does like to talk so often does, but he also asks us to participate and engage with the topic and each other.

I spent a while doing DIY zen study but it didn't amount to much more than reading and somewhat haphazard meditation methods- engaging with a sangha is the win. Last time I was out there he touched me up a bit with the keisaku- which is funny to say- but I've been meditating slouched over for years, I had thought I was sitting straight; not so. Obtaining a more adequate posture was dramatic- my back felt very strange indeed. These kinds of events profoundly change your practice.

Don't worry, sometimes you'll get it wrong and say silly things- maybe get some additional reading as homework. Maybe the roshi will make you nervous, or annoyed. The important thing is to keep at it.

The only constraints on your practice are those you bring to it.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Hubris?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My observation is that there are basically two types of Dharma teachings;
The first type is to read aloud and explain the meaning of the text.
Thd second type is as you describe: somebody picks a subject usually related to something currently dominating popular culture, and makes a sermon outbid it.
EMPTIFUL.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Hubris?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

(This is expanded from my previous comment)

My observation is that there are basically two types of Dharma teachings that people give:

The first type is to read aloud and explain the meaning of the text. In a sense, it’s a sort of academic approach. They explain the context of the teaching, and go over the details about what is taught, so the student understands and can apply it to their practice.

The second type is as you describe: somebody picks a subject, usually related to some topic of the day, stress, relationships, social unrest, and makes a sermon out of it.

I think a lot of western Buddhists drift towards the second type of teaching, either as teachers or as students, simply because growing up, that’s how they experienced going to church, listening to preachers from a pulpit. But I personally prefer the first type.
EMPTIFUL.
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Genjo Conan
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Re: Hubris?

Post by Genjo Conan »

Couple things:

1) not every Zen temple has the same vibe. Some temples are more formal, some are less formal. Some are more or less traditional. Some are more or less scholastic.
2) Not every Zen teacher has the same vibe. Basically the same as above.
3) Some Zen teachers will swing between scholastically rigorous talks and more "pop" talks.
4) Typically, there's a little bit of a rhythm in how the talks go. The ordinary public dharma talks, usually on a weekend morning, are when most Zen temples get the largest number of visitors from the community. So these talks tend to be a little bit less rigorous. Talks given as part of a sesshin or practice period usually attract a higher proportion of longtime practitioners, and so tend to be a little bit more rigorous.

So it's hard for me to say what you're running into here. Maybe the temple isn't right for you. Maybe you've just run into a string of more basic teachings and you're due for a stemwinder on the Samdhinirmocana Sutra, or something. Maybe you are being prideful.

My suggestion is to ask to speak with one of the teachers at the temple about this. Explain how you feel, and see how they respond.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Hubris?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I don't think this is hubris at all. You simply want a more profound experience. You want to engage with traditional texts and apply your intellect to Buddhism: that is a wonderful thing in my opinion.

I agree with Genjo Conan that you should respectfully try to explain how you feel to somebody in charge there and just gauge their reaction. There are certainly communities where you can practice the way you seem to be wishing to.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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KeithA
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Re: Hubris?

Post by KeithA »

I would say it is absolutely hubris. Putting oneself above others is pretty much the definition of hubris. I mean, it’s an actual Precept. And, it’s wonderful that the OP has noticed this, and given it some serious consideration.

The flip side is we all have our innate likes and dislikes. And it’s not the worst thing in the world to find a group that we have some affinity with.

Not sure in this case what the answer is though, given a dearth of choice. It is possible to maintain long distance relationships with a teacher. But it takes some work to make that happen.

Good luck and thanks for practicing,
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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frantisek
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Re: Hubris?

Post by frantisek »

Thanks for all of the replies y'all, I'll take it into consideration! There's another, smaller meeting group that I'm looking into—but I think I might continue along with the Center just to continue to see what it's like before I make a definitive judgement.

Maybe I'm just vulgar and unenlightened but I find the study of, and thoughtful contemplation over, texts to be greatly spiritually edifying, so I'll see if they've got a reading group.

I think last time that I checked the reading group didn't really delve deep into sutras, it was more like devotionals (I'm not sure if there's another term for them hahahaa), which maybe.

Of course all of this should be complementary to practice, something I lack—I've been doing alright, but I've been studying a lot for tests etc. and I take adderall, so I try and avoid meditation while on it.

Thanks so much!
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Hubris?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

I think you may need to spend more time interacting with the group before you can really know what's really going on in it, especially if your experience of real-life dharma groups is limited. Each group is different, and in some groups each meeting is different (it often depends on who turns up), so you won't have a good sense of it until you've been to half a dozen meetings.
And if you go along with the wrong attitude, you still won't know anything about what's really going on after half a dozen meetings. If you don't see why not, you might like to reflect for a while on the well-known story of the zen monk, the scholar and the tea cup.

:namaste:
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PeterC
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Re: Hubris?

Post by PeterC »

I don't think it's hubris at all if you're just being realistic about what will help you. We have limited time to study and practice, personally I prefer to hear Dharma teachers teaching the Dharma - i.e. explaining texts or practices - rather than opining on current affairs, which often they are not best placed to discuss. Of course they do this to connect with people who perhaps find it easier to receive Dharma teachings that are more directly connected with what's happening in their lives. But I don't particularly need or want that, so I direct my time elsewhere.

The corollary of that is that you should be doing serious study elsewhere. Otherwise it's just talk.
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Dan74
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Re: Hubris?

Post by Dan74 »

It sounds like this group is quite political and while an occasional mention of something political would not turn me off, I'd prefer the Dharma talks to be practice oriented.

Practice oriented doesn't mean it is divorced from the current goings-on. On the contrary, none of it is really separate, but bringing it back to practice is where it's at for me.

So, I'm not sure if it's hubris if you just don't get so much out of the talks. It could be you, it could be the talks. Why not talk to the teacher there and relay your doubts to him/her? See what they are like one-to-one?
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clyde
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Re: Hubris?

Post by clyde »

frantisek wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:28 am Maybe I'm just vulgar and unenlightened but I find the study of, and thoughtful contemplation over, texts to be greatly spiritually edifying
There’s nothing vulgar or unenlightened about study and thoughtful contemplation, and I also find that practice (It is a practice.) spiritually edifying too.

Here are a few points based on my experience.

Meditation is an important and necessary practice too. I practiced shikantaza, but I was undisciplined. Adding a timer helped.

I can’t emphasize enough the benefit of participating in a sangha. I think this is true even if it’s uncomfortable.

My own experience is that ‘reading/study groups’ haven’t worked. Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s the groups, or maybe it’s the nature of such groups. Discussions with one, maybe two people can work, if you find like-minded practitioners.

And Dharma Friends groups (also known as Kalyana Mitta groups) are a wonderful addition if they’re focused on the practice of Dharma in everyday life.

Best wishes on your journey.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Hubris?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Sounds like the teacher just isn’t on your wavelength, learn what you can and keep looking. Not for the one that tells you what you want to hear necessarily, but you’ll know when you go to a Dharma talk that really shifts something for you, mayn’t you’ve found someone to look into.

I learned that I usually hate the Q&A section of talks, less because of the teacher, more because of the typical questions. If it’s something like that, it might just be your temperament. People like different stuff, it isn’t always about these perceived good and bad personality characteristics.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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