How did dogen get depression

yinyangkoi
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How did dogen get depression

Post by yinyangkoi »

In the wikipedia article for dogen it says that dogen developed depression. However I thought once nirvana is attained, all emotion is eradicated and the minds tranquility becomes undisturbable and cannot be shaken by anything? How is it possible he got depression? And how did this depression manifest? Any explanation is welcome. I understand that the description of nirvana from the pali canon might not be the same as in the zen tradition.
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Ayu
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by Ayu »

I think your question is not legit.

The Wikipedia article explains how and why. Seemingly they are not talking about the desease 'depression' but about Dogen being very dissatisfied with Rinzai. He wasn't depressed without purpose.

From Wikipedia :
Dōgen "fell into a depression".[14] It marked a turning point in his life, giving way to "rigorous critique of Rinzai Zen".[14] He criticized Dahui Zonggao, the most influential figure of Song Dynasty Chán.[15]
Edit: Someone explained to me that I didn't get it right. Okay, thanks - go ahead discussing.
yinyangkoi
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by yinyangkoi »

Quote from the book: "he fell into a depression" and "The undeniable narrowing of Dogen's perspective is a weakness ocasioned by the deep depression that came with his move to Echizen". How can his mental health be conditioned if he attained nirvana?


Source: https://books.google.at/books?redir_esc ... on&f=false
Last edited by yinyangkoi on Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
reiun
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by reiun »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:53 pm In the wikipedia article for dogen it says that dogen developed depression. However I thought once nirvana is attained, all emotion is eradicated and the minds tranquility becomes undisturbable and cannot be shaken by anything? How is it possible he got depression? And how did this depression manifest? Any explanation is welcome. I understand that the description of nirvana from the pali canon might not be the same as in the zen tradition.
"Nirvana and the repayment of karmic debt have one nature, not two."
-Abbot Ching-t'sên of Mount Chang-sha
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:26 pm
yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:53 pm In the wikipedia article for dogen it says that dogen developed depression. However I thought once nirvana is attained, all emotion is eradicated and the minds tranquility becomes undisturbable and cannot be shaken by anything? How is it possible he got depression? And how did this depression manifest? Any explanation is welcome. I understand that the description of nirvana from the pali canon might not be the same as in the zen tradition.
"Nirvana and the repayment of karmic debt have one nature, not two."
-Abbot Ching-t'sên of Mount Chang-sha
That’s right for this statement only. I know nothing about Dogen. Don’t know if one still experiences karma the same way. I think not.
It’s eye blinking.
reiun
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:28 pm I know nothing about Dogen. Don’t know if one still experiences karma the same way. I think not.
No doubt a compassionate teacher could clear up your confusion about karma.
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by LastLegend »

Explain more please. Specific?
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reiun
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm Explain more please. Specific?
About you benefiting from a teacher? That's been gone over. Explaining about karma vis-a-vis the abbot's quote? You have already refuted it for yourself:
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm That’s right for this statement only.
Thus, not open.
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LastLegend
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:41 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm Explain more please. Specific?
About you benefiting from a teacher? That's been gone over. Explaining about karma vis-a-vis the abbot's quote? You have already refuted it for yourself:
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm That’s right for this statement only.
Thus, not open.
I am interested in your own understanding more than anything else.
It’s eye blinking.
reiun
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:47 pm
reiun wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:41 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm Explain more please. Specific?
About you benefiting from a teacher? That's been gone over. Explaining about karma vis-a-vis the abbot's quote? You have already refuted it for yourself:
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:26 pm That’s right for this statement only.
Thus, not open.
I am interested in your own understanding more than anything else.
My specific understanding is that samsara and nirvana are not different.
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LastLegend
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by LastLegend »

So if Dogen experiences karma after enlightenment is it the same way we experience karma? We as people with different degrees of realization of our empty mind. If realization of Dogen is equivalent to what we consider a Buddha, then he cannot experience karma the same way as we do because of Samadhi of Dharmakaya.
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reiun
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by reiun »

That statement doesn't reconcile with your previous one about Dogen.
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by LastLegend »

I was lazy to type and be clear man.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yinyangkoi wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:53 pm
I thought once nirvana is attained, all emotion is eradicated and the minds tranquility becomes undisturbable and cannot be shaken by anything
Nirvana doesn’t mean that one ceases to feel any emotion, to be in a cold, zombie like state. However, it is true that one’s tranquil state is not upset by emotion.
You can think of this like listening to something funny on the radio while driving. It might make you laugh, but (hopefully) that doesn’t distract you from driving. Similarly, a Buddha can experience happiness or sadness, but all that simply becomes like white noise, simply absorbed into the undisturbed mind, like spitting into the ocean.
A Buddha won’t experience greed, anger, jealousy, envy, or other negative emotional states that are manifestations of ego clinging. But a realized and compassionate being will feel another person’s pain as well as their joy. However, again, it won’t shake them.
If you’ve ever been in, say, a family or workplace environment where one person is just in a really bad mood and everybody can feel it, like a bad ‘vibe’ and it throws people off, they get edgy too… a Buddha will see that person’s turbulent emotional state, but will not be affected by it.

Since ‘clinical depression’ wasn’t a recognized thing in dogen’s time, you’ll need to look at the whole context of the situation.
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by Matylda »

I think that this article is simply inaccurate.

First – Dogen fled Koshoji with a group of disciples, since there was a serious attempt of assassination, so it was finally life saving escape, not peacful transition or relocation, and yes he went were he was invited already before. Koshoji was destroyed and burned by Tendai military mobs in 1243, so staying in the temple would be very risky.

The trip to Echizen was recorded by one of Dogen's disciples and they had to hide during the day and walked at night in the darkness. When I saw documentary of eminent Tibetan monks escape to India in 1959 and later it sounded extremely similar.

Second – his clash with rinzai was of political nature, he lost completely chance to get Tofukuji, a newly build monastery which was his hope, and it was given to Shinichi Kokushi, a rinzai priest.
The political situation was very complicated within Buddhist circles of Japan in the 13th century, all in all tendai governed almost everything and zen temples were under jurisdicition of Tendai, which controlled them untill late 16th century, when Oda Nobunaga crashed military and political power of Hieizan – tendai HQ. Soto shu was very independent from its begining in its character from tendai, but not rinzai. Rinzai school freed itself from tendai supervison along the vitcory of Oda - almost 350 years later.

Dogen was threatened by tendai, and rinzai was yielding to the tendai power and administration. So emotions were probably high and uneasy. Dogen was forced out of Kyoto area to unfriendly Echizen with harsh and cold climate.

He could be pretty angry with all Kyoto affair which included tendai and rinzai, so he became so badly critical of rinzai, which was indirect attack aimed at tendai. Finally he attacked all Yogi lineage representatives in Japan, praising only Oryo lineage of rinzai, anyway his own lineage after Myozen and Eisai.

On the top of this tendai claimed its power over zen monks of that time since probably almost all of them were originally tendai monks.
One must remember, that just before Dogen appered as a zen master some monks were killed from Honen's group, actually 5 of his close disciples, for spreading.. false dharma. Again Honen was originally a tendai monk, like Nichiren and others and many of them experienced heavy persecution including death penalty.

Again we cannot forget that Dogen addressed his talks about Daie Soko – Tahui, to very small group of close disciples. He did not know us, he was not even aware of English speaking group of followers in the 20th and 21st century. So in our judgments we have to be very carefull and have some knoowledge. We condemn easily what Chinese did in Tibet, and none of us see it as something wrong to do so. Dogen had his own reason to criticize rinzai, but the context is most important.
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by Matylda »

The straight walking route from Kyoto to present site of Eiheiji is close to 170 km, so about one week of forcful walk through the mountains and some plains.
Dogen and his entourage did not take main path to Echizen.
They had to hide.
They chose very narrow paths and forced their way through.
There was a lot of fear and worry. Since they expacted a chasing party behind their backs. Fortunately after long trip they were safe.
Soon after Dogen left Kyoto there was a major assault against Koshoji, finally it was destroyed and burned to the ground.
It was the very first zen monastery in respect of lay out etc. so it was very bitter lesson and trial for Dogen.
Kennin monastery was at that time not very different from other tendai temples. Just practice was different, though many rites of tendai were still kept, in fact tendai temple is still at Kenninji and there is early morning ceremony everyday there.
Dogen paid very high price for his independence. But his bitternes after all these events did not calm. He worried very much about proper dissemination of zen dharma. That is all. It is just my opinion.
One may look for nirvana vs. depression condition etc. feel free :D
Mordor_Yogi
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by Mordor_Yogi »

I guess there is debate if he was depressed or not. But if enlightened beings can get sick and die, as the Buddha did, why couldn't they get depressed too?
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by Genjo Conan »

re: the depression part--for the proposition that Dogen became depressed at Eiheiji, the Wikipedia article cites Heinrich Dumoulin's "Zen Buddhism: a History." Dumoulin's work is undeniably important, but is dated in a lot of respects.

Dumoulin seems to base the "Dogen got depressed" claim off of those works that were later included in the Shobogenzo. And, to be fair, Dogen's most prodigious period of writing was earlier in his life: the later Shobogenzo fascicles are fewer and, on the whole, less important than the earlier ones.

However, as scholars like Heine and Bodiford note, Dogen was still teaching actively at Eiheiji, pretty much right up until his final sickness and death. We can see this in collections of his Dharma hall discourses and informal talks like the Eihei Koroku and Shobogenzo Zuimonki. While those texts do reflect Dogen's moods (he was clearly saddened when a young disciple died, for example), they do not reflect any sort of deep depression or mental decline.

Heine's essay "Dogen Canon" is excellent on Dogen's later life, and is available here: https://zendogen.es/textos-zen-pdf/The- ... -Heine.pdf
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by White Lotus »

Thank you Matylda. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: How did dogen get depression

Post by michaeljc »

Hakuin suffered from severe mental disturbance after experiencing his first major satori.

I question that nirvana can be considered to be a permanent state where one is exempt from natural emotions. How could one function? We are talking about a normal man living on earth. Whether he actually achieved nirvana is of no importance.

There is no permanence. This is the very essence of Zen. Dogen understood this and tried so hard to get us to realise this.

BTW I love the man, especially because I don't understand him.

M
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