Zen beliefs.

[Zenny]

Hello. I love Zen practice. The clear and simple focus on meditation/focus as the essential practice of any spiritual path.
And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.
Everyday Zen! All life experience is an opportunity to zen.
My gripe is this. All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma.
Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

[Astus]

Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Buddhist teachings are experience based and to be experienced for oneself. It is a matter of one's level of progress how much one can learn, comprehend, and eventually verify personally.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Hello. I love Zen practice. The clear and simple focus on meditation/focus as the essential practice of any spiritual path.
And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.
Everyday Zen! All life experience is an opportunity to zen.
My gripe is this. All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma.
Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Please list them.

[Zenny]

Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Buddhist teachings are experience based and to be experienced for oneself. It is a matter of one's level of progress how much one can learn, comprehend, and eventually verify personally.

My problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.

[Zenny]

Hello. I love Zen practice. The clear and simple focus on meditation/focus as the essential practice of any spiritual path.
And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.
Everyday Zen! All life experience is an opportunity to zen.
My gripe is this. All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma.
Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Please list them.

The primary belief is no self. Also Non duality.
These beliefs are like someone telling me that cheating on ones spouse is OK,just as long as you practice enough. Many things in life I feel are obviously right or wrong,and don't need overanalysis.

[narhwal90]

Your teacup is full.

[PeterC]

Hello. I love Zen practice. The clear and simple focus on meditation/focus as the essential practice of any spiritual path.
And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.
Everyday Zen! All life experience is an opportunity to zen.
My gripe is this. All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma.
Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Please list them.

The primary belief is no self. Also Non duality.
These beliefs are like someone telling me that cheating on ones spouse is OK,just as long as you practice enough. Many things in life I feel are obviously right or wrong,and don't need overanalysis.

You have not understood either anatman or emptiness. You also have a lot of concepts.

[reiun]

And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.

In Buddhism, the "natural essence of a person", aka self-nature, does not exist.

If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize this.

[Zenny]

As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?

[narhwal90]

Didn't ask you to practice more, just to consider what it means that your cup is overflowing. In essence, you are full of your own ideas.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Hello. I love Zen practice. The clear and simple focus on meditation/focus as the essential practice of any spiritual path.
And the fact that meditation is the natural essence of a person.
Everyday Zen! All life experience is an opportunity to zen.
My gripe is this. All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma.
Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Please list them.

The primary belief is no self.
Also Non duality.

What is your understanding of the meaning of
“No self”
And what do you understand to be meant by
“Non duality”
?

[Zenny]

Didn't ask you to practice more, just to consider what it means that your cup is overflowing. In essence, you are full of your own ideas.

The act of "considering" is still practice.

I'm fully aware of all the terminology that is used in a clichéd way to rebut any dissent from the dogmas. How is your response any different than a Christian telling me I'm a sinner so I need to get in line with the group think?

[LastLegend]

Why the need for non experiential beliefs in an otherwise perfect religion?

Buddhist teachings are experience based and to be experienced for oneself. It is a matter of one's level of progress how much one can learn, comprehend, and eventually verify personally.

My problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.

Karma still applies as consciousness manifests. Zen is about knowing our nature in a direct way. There are various ways to do that but all should lead to the same progress. Progress as in mind-nature becomes more clear. Clear as in not mistaken. Not constructive. But not constructive in a sense to be clear of nature. That’s not to be one sided view.

[PeterC]

As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?

We don't do things like justification by faith or shaktipat in the Buddhadharma. You want to get a result out, you need to put some effort in. If you don't want to practice, then really, the zen school might not be for you.

[reiun]

If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize this

As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?

No, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.

[narhwal90]

[Zenny]

As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?

We don't do things like justification by faith or shaktipat in the Buddhadharma. You want to get a result out, you need to put some effort in. If you don't want to practice, then really, the zen school might not be for you.

What makes you think I don't practice? Bit presumptuous no?
And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?

[narhwal90]

If your concern about zen is its beliefs, perhaps share some of yours?

[LastLegend]

Didn't ask you to practice more, just to consider what it means that your cup is overflowing. In essence, you are full of your own ideas.

The act of "considering" is still practice.

I'm fully aware of all the terminology that is used in a clichéd way to rebut any dissent from the dogmas. How is your response any different than a Christian telling me I'm a sinner so I need to get in line with the group think?

That depends on what it means to practice...to be fair to you people can sit Zazen but if we don’t recognize mahaprajna nature directly, we might not able to reach the 10th stage. If they don’t recognize what manifests in mind, what ignorance is...

[Zenny]

If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize this

As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?

No, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.

It seems to me your just asking me to defer to an authority without actually experiencing/ feeling the belief. On basic principles beliefs should be self evident.