Zen beliefs.

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LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by LastLegend »

LastLegend wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
Astus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 11:38 am

Buddhist teachings are experience based and to be experienced for oneself. It is a matter of one's level of progress how much one can learn, comprehend, and eventually verify personally.
My problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
Karma still applies as consciousness manifests. Zen is about knowing our nature in a direct way. There are various ways to do that but all should lead to the same progress. Progress as in mind-nature becomes more clear. Clear as in not mistaken. Not constructive. But not constructive in a sense to be clear of nature. That’s not to be one sided view.
To say not to be constructive is also incorrect because Buddhas manifest different dharmas even their Pure Lands.
It’s eye blinking.
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 pm If your concern about zen is its beliefs, perhaps share some of yours?
With regard to Zen as a method/practice my main belief is that Meditation/dhayana works. I feel this. I know this. I have experienced this. I trust this.
narhwal90
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by narhwal90 »

Sure it works- that why many of us are here. So your belief is that your thoughts, feelings, observations can be relied upon- to be correct- unbiased, complete?
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LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by LastLegend »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:21 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 pm If your concern about zen is its beliefs, perhaps share some of yours?
With regard to Zen as a method/practice my main belief is that Meditation/dhayana works. I feel this. I know this. I have experienced this. I trust this.
We can be clear not mistaken or have samadhi, it’s not however necessarily considered a 10th stage. Samadhi of Sixth Patriarch is not compromised with no karma left in there.
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jimmi
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by jimmi »

Yay Zenny!

:bow: :applause:
Bristollad
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Bristollad »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:21 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 pm If your concern about zen is its beliefs, perhaps share some of yours?
With regard to Zen as a method/practice my main belief is that Meditation/dhayana works. I feel this. I know this. I have experienced this. I trust this.
Works to do what?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by LastLegend »

But to say no karma left and remain in there is not the path towards Buddhahood...then Buddhas would not have any vows. Once connected with sentient beings, they will also experience karma of sentient beings. Depends on their vows. But they are able to manage karma with their holy powers. This is why recitation of a Buddha works.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PeterC
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by PeterC »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:09 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:46 pm As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?
We don't do things like justification by faith or shaktipat in the Buddhadharma. You want to get a result out, you need to put some effort in. If you don't want to practice, then really, the zen school might not be for you.
What makes you think I don't practice? Bit presumptuous no?
You said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.
And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:39 pm But to say no karma left and remain in there is not the path towards Buddhahood...then Buddhas would not have any vows. Once connected with sentient beings, they will also experience karma of sentient beings. Depends on their vows. But they are able to manage karma with their holy powers. This is why recitation of a Buddha works.
Gate, gate, paragate . . .
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Astus
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Astus »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
In Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:09 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pm

We don't do things like justification by faith or shaktipat in the Buddhadharma. You want to get a result out, you need to put some effort in. If you don't want to practice, then really, the zen school might not be for you.
What makes you think I don't practice? Bit presumptuous no?
You said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.
And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?
It's obvious from my posts that i practice. I've stated as much.
So you consider questioning certain beliefs confrontational? Yet you don't mind presuming about me without even reading my posts clearly?
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:27 pm Sure it works- that why many of us are here. So your belief is that your thoughts, feelings, observations can be relied upon- to be correct- unbiased, complete?
On the basic things yes. No need to reinvent the wheel.
reiun
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by reiun »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:17 pm
reiun wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:08 pm
reiun wrote: If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize this
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:46 pm As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?
No, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.
It seems to me your just asking me to defer to an authority without actually experiencing/ feeling the belief. On basic principles beliefs should be self evident.
A teacher is necessary.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... K.#p580900
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

Astus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
In Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.
Self belief is essential,i agree. The other beliefs are to me incorrect ideas. I think the beliefs are what can bog people down.
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

Astus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
In Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.
Self belief is essential,i agree. The other beliefs are to me incorrect ideas. I think the beliefs are what can bog people down.
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LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by LastLegend »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:17 pm
reiun wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:08 pm
reiun wrote: If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize this
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:46 pm As I posted earlier the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more. How is this any different to a Christian telling me that I have to pray more to experience jesus?
No, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.
It seems to me your just asking me to defer to an authority without actually experiencing/ feeling the belief. On basic principles beliefs should be self evident.
It’s good to have someone to check in with...for example if you say you are fully awakened, then they would ask you “what knows fully awakened?” Skandhas also know so. They would ask questions that you can’t answer.

If you are insisting without needing a guidance and are certain of your understanding what nature is, what mind is, what ignorance is, and transcend that ignorance, then you follow that because that’s what you want.

Once upon a time of you tell me nature is like a clear sky, I would have no clue. We would need to see it. It’s like we are in the air the space and that which is clear (without mistake) is nature. Other acts that’s going on in certain ways that’s skandhas.
It’s eye blinking.
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

Bristollad wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:37 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:21 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 pm If your concern about zen is its beliefs, perhaps share some of yours?
With regard to Zen as a method/practice my main belief is that Meditation/dhayana works. I feel this. I know this. I have experienced this. I trust this.
Works to do what?
Works to increase happiness. To express joy. To become more efficient.
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:21 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:01 pm

Please list them.
The primary belief is no self.
Also Non duality.
What is your understanding of the meaning of
“No self”
And what do you understand to be meant by
“Non duality”
?
Generally I see "no self" explained as being the lack of intrinsic essence of a person. And so everything being explained by recourse to dependent origination. This is an infinite regress.
This also ties into non dualism. The belief that everything is a kind of monastic undefined whole.
Both negate the human self,and in effect human agency.
Both seem to be escapism and very similiar to advaita.
So who is it that practices? Its me. And those who claim non self,have you actually experienced this or is it deferring to a teachers explanation?
PeterC
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by PeterC »

Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:09 pm

What makes you think I don't practice? Bit presumptuous no?
You said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.
And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?
It's obvious from my posts that i practice. I've stated as much.
So you consider questioning certain beliefs confrontational? Yet you don't mind presuming about me without even reading my posts clearly?
It's clear from your posts that you don't really understand the terms you're dismissing. That, and the comment of yours that I quoted, call into question your assertion of the adequacy of your practice. This is one of the reasons why every single tradition, not just the zen school, insist that we need a teacher, because it's very hard to assess your own progress and diagnose your own needs.

And yes, of course you were trying to be confrontational and provocative. You showed up on the zen subforum of a Buddhist discussion board and said "All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma". That's your starting point, and the all you have to support that position is "I practice". Despite this, you've received serious and sincere responses on this thread, which you also choose to dismiss. And that's fine: you don't have to take strangers on the internet as an authority. But does that mean you don't accept anything as an authority except yourself? And you don't see the issue with that?
Zenny
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Re: Zen beliefs.

Post by Zenny »

PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:49 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pm

You said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.



Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?
It's obvious from my posts that i practice. I've stated as much.
So you consider questioning certain beliefs confrontational? Yet you don't mind presuming about me without even reading my posts clearly?
It's clear from your posts that you don't really understand the terms you're dismissing. That, and the comment of yours that I quoted, call into question your assertion of the adequacy of your practice. This is one of the reasons why every single tradition, not just the zen school, insist that we need a teacher, because it's very hard to assess your own progress and diagnose your own needs.

And yes, of course you were trying to be confrontational and provocative. You showed up on the zen subforum of a Buddhist discussion board and said "All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma". That's your starting point, and the all you have to support that position is "I practice". Despite this, you've received serious and sincere responses on this thread, which you also choose to dismiss. And that's fine: you don't have to take strangers on the internet as an authority. But does that mean you don't accept anything as an authority except yourself? And you don't see the issue with that?
If you see questioning aspects of a practice as confrontational then that says more about yourself and your relation to truth.
I accept shared authority on self evident matters. If you say to me practice is beneficial I will accept your authority on that particular matter. But if you think I will defer to teachers or yourself on unproven assertions then no,I don't accept that authority.
As I've asked before,what distinguishes this attitude from a Christian who tells me I need to trust in the authority of the priests?
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