To say not to be constructive is also incorrect because Buddhas manifest different dharmas even their Pure Lands.LastLegend wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pmKarma still applies as consciousness manifests. Zen is about knowing our nature in a direct way. There are various ways to do that but all should lead to the same progress. Progress as in mind-nature becomes more clear. Clear as in not mistaken. Not constructive. But not constructive in a sense to be clear of nature. That’s not to be one sided view.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
Zen beliefs.
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Re: Zen beliefs.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Zen beliefs.
Sure it works- that why many of us are here. So your belief is that your thoughts, feelings, observations can be relied upon- to be correct- unbiased, complete?
- LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.
We can be clear not mistaken or have samadhi, it’s not however necessarily considered a 10th stage. Samadhi of Sixth Patriarch is not compromised with no karma left in there.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Zen beliefs.
Works to do what?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
- LastLegend
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Re: Zen beliefs.
But to say no karma left and remain in there is not the path towards Buddhahood...then Buddhas would not have any vows. Once connected with sentient beings, they will also experience karma of sentient beings. Depends on their vows. But they are able to manage karma with their holy powers. This is why recitation of a Buddha works.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Zen beliefs.
You said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:09 pmWhat makes you think I don't practice? Bit presumptuous no?
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
Re: Zen beliefs.
Gate, gate, paragate . . .LastLegend wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:39 pm But to say no karma left and remain in there is not the path towards Buddhahood...then Buddhas would not have any vows. Once connected with sentient beings, they will also experience karma of sentient beings. Depends on their vows. But they are able to manage karma with their holy powers. This is why recitation of a Buddha works.
Re: Zen beliefs.
In Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Zen beliefs.
It's obvious from my posts that i practice. I've stated as much.PeterC wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pmYou said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
So you consider questioning certain beliefs confrontational? Yet you don't mind presuming about me without even reading my posts clearly?
Re: Zen beliefs.
A teacher is necessary.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:17 pmIt seems to me your just asking me to defer to an authority without actually experiencing/ feeling the belief. On basic principles beliefs should be self evident.reiun wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:08 pmreiun wrote: If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize thisNo, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... K.#p580900
Re: Zen beliefs.
Self belief is essential,i agree. The other beliefs are to me incorrect ideas. I think the beliefs are what can bog people down.Astus wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pmIn Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
Re: Zen beliefs.
Self belief is essential,i agree. The other beliefs are to me incorrect ideas. I think the beliefs are what can bog people down.Astus wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pmIn Zen what one has to believe in foremost is one's own ability to realise buddha-nature, simply because otherwise one would lack the motivation to continue with the practice. It does not matter if you believe that there is or isn't something or anything. The main point is to work towards awakening. Don't get bogged down by ideas of there is or there isn't. Those are just passing thoughts anyway.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pmMy problem with this is that this means that certain beliefs are upheld as something to "discover" rather than being Innate and natural. And that is the way that many religions try to get people to accept beliefs that are not felt/natural. Thus one can never criticise a "belief" as the reply would be "you haven't progressed enough". Which smacks of complacency and authority.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Zen beliefs.
It’s good to have someone to check in with...for example if you say you are fully awakened, then they would ask you “what knows fully awakened?” Skandhas also know so. They would ask questions that you can’t answer.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:17 pmIt seems to me your just asking me to defer to an authority without actually experiencing/ feeling the belief. On basic principles beliefs should be self evident.reiun wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:08 pmreiun wrote: If you practice zazen under the guidance of a teacher, one way or another, you may come to realize thisNo, not practice more, but with crucial guidance, so that when you hit questions such as you are now posing, you will get a definitive and trustworthy answer.
If you are insisting without needing a guidance and are certain of your understanding what nature is, what mind is, what ignorance is, and transcend that ignorance, then you follow that because that’s what you want.
Once upon a time of you tell me nature is like a clear sky, I would have no clue. We would need to see it. It’s like we are in the air the space and that which is clear (without mistake) is nature. Other acts that’s going on in certain ways that’s skandhas.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Zen beliefs.
Works to increase happiness. To express joy. To become more efficient.Bristollad wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:37 pmWorks to do what?
Re: Zen beliefs.
Generally I see "no self" explained as being the lack of intrinsic essence of a person. And so everything being explained by recourse to dependent origination. This is an infinite regress.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 2:54 pmWhat is your understanding of the meaning of
“No self”
And what do you understand to be meant by
“Non duality”
?
This also ties into non dualism. The belief that everything is a kind of monastic undefined whole.
Both negate the human self,and in effect human agency.
Both seem to be escapism and very similiar to advaita.
So who is it that practices? Its me. And those who claim non self,have you actually experienced this or is it deferring to a teachers explanation?
Re: Zen beliefs.
It's clear from your posts that you don't really understand the terms you're dismissing. That, and the comment of yours that I quoted, call into question your assertion of the adequacy of your practice. This is one of the reasons why every single tradition, not just the zen school, insist that we need a teacher, because it's very hard to assess your own progress and diagnose your own needs.Zenny wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:55 pmIt's obvious from my posts that i practice. I've stated as much.PeterC wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:40 pmYou said, "the last three posts have just repeated the cliche of needing to practice more". So - no.
Why don't you try it and see? Do you think you're going to learn more from confrontational posts on the internet?And you are suggesting that the only result of practice is to agree with your beliefs? Will you next say the results of my practice are invalid because I don't agree with certain beliefs?
So you consider questioning certain beliefs confrontational? Yet you don't mind presuming about me without even reading my posts clearly?
And yes, of course you were trying to be confrontational and provocative. You showed up on the zen subforum of a Buddhist discussion board and said "All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma". That's your starting point, and the all you have to support that position is "I practice". Despite this, you've received serious and sincere responses on this thread, which you also choose to dismiss. And that's fine: you don't have to take strangers on the internet as an authority. But does that mean you don't accept anything as an authority except yourself? And you don't see the issue with that?
Re: Zen beliefs.
If you see questioning aspects of a practice as confrontational then that says more about yourself and your relation to truth.PeterC wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:49 pmIt's clear from your posts that you don't really understand the terms you're dismissing. That, and the comment of yours that I quoted, call into question your assertion of the adequacy of your practice. This is one of the reasons why every single tradition, not just the zen school, insist that we need a teacher, because it's very hard to assess your own progress and diagnose your own needs.
And yes, of course you were trying to be confrontational and provocative. You showed up on the zen subforum of a Buddhist discussion board and said "All the "beliefs" that go with organised zen are to me either untrue,rabbit holes or controlling dogma". That's your starting point, and the all you have to support that position is "I practice". Despite this, you've received serious and sincere responses on this thread, which you also choose to dismiss. And that's fine: you don't have to take strangers on the internet as an authority. But does that mean you don't accept anything as an authority except yourself? And you don't see the issue with that?
I accept shared authority on self evident matters. If you say to me practice is beneficial I will accept your authority on that particular matter. But if you think I will defer to teachers or yourself on unproven assertions then no,I don't accept that authority.
As I've asked before,what distinguishes this attitude from a Christian who tells me I need to trust in the authority of the priests?