We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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Russian
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We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by Russian »

Does it say anywhere in the classical Zen treatises, or in the sutras, what to distinguish, is this the hinayana method, or not? Check in the plan to distinguish whether this is the hinayana method, or not, if so, where is it said?
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by Russian »

What Zen treatises say that discriminating is the method of the lower chariots? If you can, please provide quotes and the title of the works.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by oryoki »

Russian wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:28 am Does it say anywhere in the classical Zen treatises, or in the sutras, what to distinguish, is this the hinayana method, or not? Check in the plan to distinguish whether this is the hinayana method, or not, if so, where is it said?
Zen teaches Middle Way. It teaches discrimination and non-discrimination. Non-discrimination shows no preferences. Non-discrimination may be the ultimate truth, but people live in the relative world where the conventional truth operates. Thus Zen discriminates. It prefers compassion and loving kindness. Consider koan Mu:

The koan Mu is usually presented in two variations which can be illustrated for Christians or other non-Zen (and other non-Buddhist) people for better understanding as follows:

Variation 1: A monk went to see pope Francis and asked him: "Is Jesus son of God and saviour of mankind? Yes or no?" Francis replied: "No."
Variation 2: A monk went to see pope Francis and asked him: "Is Jesus son of God and saviour of mankind?" Francis replied: "Yes." The next day the same monk went to see Francis again and asked him: "Is Jesus son of God?" Francis replied: "No."

... and pope Francis was then promptly carted off in his pope-mobile to a home for senior citizens suffering from dementia.

Similarly, the koan Mu is usually presented in two variations:

Variation 1: A monk went to see Zen Master Joshu (Zhaozhou) and asked him: "Has a dog Buddha-nature? Yes or no?" Joshu replied: "No."
Variation 2: A monk went to see Joshu and asked him: "Has a dog Buddha-nature?" Joshu replied: "Yes." The next day the same monk went to see Joshu again and asked him: "Has a dog Buddha-nature?" Joshu replied: "No."

... and the monk went back to Zendo to sit on his cushion in meditation position instead of asking redundant questions. (If the monk knew what bananas taste like it would be redundant to ask about it someone else.) So Joshu's No/Mu send the monk back to Zendo where he should have been in the first place finding about his own Buddha-nature; and then the monk could find the answer himself what Buddha-nature is, and if Buddha-nature can be separated from compassion and loving kindness which people show for their senior citizens suffering from dementia.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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A practice or view that truly transcends method can also make use of any method. If it can't, and it blocks certain methods, it is, in fact...just another method.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by SilenceMonkey »

There's nothing in zen that says a mind of discrimination is the hinayana method. There were many mahayana schools in china that engaged in "discriminating" (a.k.a. making distinctions) as a means of teaching the Dharma.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by LastLegend »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:33 pm There's nothing in zen that says a mind of discrimination is the hinayana method. There were many mahayana schools in china that engaged in "discriminating" (a.k.a. making distinctions) as a means of teaching the Dharma.
I think he meant there is a discrimination of Nirvana versus suffering that Nirvana is held on to as real and not moving forwards with Bodhisattva path.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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One things for sure, aversion isn’t part of the method.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:40 pm I think he meant there is a discrimination of Nirvana versus suffering that Nirvana is held on to as real and not moving forwards with Bodhisattva path.
I meant what SilenceMonkey wrote. What he answered, the question about it, I asked.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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No Zen literature explicitly says that, but the view is the cause and the fruit will follow. If followers of Sravakayana still see Nirvana to hold on to, then their method will reflect that. In Mahaprajnaparamita Sutras describe Great Samadhi as no Nirvana, No Samsara, No Buddha, No sentient beings, etc etc. That’s because the mind’s function of making distinction is blown out completely.
Last edited by LastLegend on Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:39 pm A practice or view that truly transcends method can also make use of any method.
:good:
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

To reiterate, Zen is a form of Mahayana, to practitioners presumably the pinnacle of it. As such, it isn't "opposed" to the Hinayana so much as it is built on top of it, and transcending it.

Limiting Zen to a particular method or approach is IMO (and granted I am not a primary Zen practitioner, but I have some experience and interest) completely missing the point.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by Astus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:23 amLimiting Zen to a particular method or approach is IMO ... completely missing the point.
Zen is such a generic term that there are even those who limit it to a single method, like zazen or ganhwa.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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Regardless of method it should lead to samadhi whether it’s a small samadhi then to great samadhi, hopefully eventually.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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There is direct contemplation which comes in form of a question.
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Astus wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:23 amLimiting Zen to a particular method or approach is IMO ... completely missing the point.
Zen is such a generic term that there are even those who limit it to a single method, like zazen or ganhwa.
Yeah, I'm intimately familiar with the Zazen-reductionist approach...I'm just throwing my hat in the ring for a more expansive understanding than reducing Zen to a set of techniques or practices.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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All traditions practice towards samadhi :lol: .
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Re: We need sources that say that discriminating is the hinayana method

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Excuse me...it’s my day off. Thanks mods. Allow me to veer off the seriousness of vegetarian meat eater debate. :lol:
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