Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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LastLegend
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by LastLegend »

There is a fine line between nihistic emptiness experience and experience of Great Emptiness Samadhi, not to mentioned we are distracted in just a second that’s total oblivious in that moment. But now matter as long as samadhi is growing.
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clyde
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by clyde »

I think narhwal90 has made good points. Teachers can be helpful, even if one doesn’t have a ‘formal relationship’. And (IRL) sanghas are beneficial to one’s practice.

And to address your repeated question, no topic, no “relative affairs”, nothing is outside of Buddhadharma.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Owlsd wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:43 pmStill I’m talking about how they taught when people made serious inquiry into the Buddhadharma. When Emperor Wu questioned Bodhidharma he was told “No Merit.”
This isn’t a teaching on the basis of right and wrong.
Koan is a specific genre of literature. If you want to see what teachers taught it's better to look at their recorded teachings and writings. One example would be Yongming Yanshou's Wanshan tonggui ji, in English see The Meaning of Myriad Good Deeds by Albert Welter, that discusses the importance of meritorious action. There are also some chapter in Dogen's Shobogenzo on the topic of karma, like Shinjininga and Sanjinogo.
Does the Buddhadharma and discussion of it, include relative affairs?
If I speak of sex, right and wrong, money, karma, reincarnation, Buddha’s and devils, anything at all in the realm of relative affairs, am I still expressing the true Buddhadharma?
The teachings of karma and rebirth are central in all Buddhist schools, while the training in moral discipline is essential for any progress on the path. So yes, those topics are expressing the true Buddhadharma.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Owlsd »

clyde wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:36 pm I think narhwal90 has made good points. Teachers can be helpful, even if one doesn’t have a ‘formal relationship’. And (IRL) sanghas are beneficial to one’s practice.

And to address your repeated question, no topic, no “relative affairs”, nothing is outside of Buddhadharma.
Could you explain?

My understanding is that there is the mind. And there are concepts.

There is no distinction to be made here, because the concepts are the Buddhamind in truth, and not whatever you conceptualize.

So to say that this is the Buddha, is to take the Slave as the Master.

In other words if we talk about relative affairs as if they are the Buddha, we mistake the concept for the truth. When you see a cat, you don’t see a cat. When you see a tree, you don’t see a tree. What you see is the Buddhamind in truth.

If you continue to talk about cats and trees you are not talking about the Buddhamind, and engaging in delusion.

Is this a misguided outlook I have?
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Owlsd »

Koan is a specific genre of literature. If you want to see what teachers taught it's better to look at their recorded teachings and writings. One example would be Yongming Yanshou's Wanshan tonggui ji, in English see The Meaning of Myriad Good Deeds by Albert Welter, that discusses the importance of meritorious action. There are also some chapter in Dogen's Shobogenzo on the topic of karma, like Shinjininga and Sanjinogo.
Koans are castle studies of real interactions Zen Masters engaged in. Why would you dismiss what they say?
The teachings of karma and rebirth are central in all Buddhist schools, while the training in moral discipline is essential for any progress on the path. So yes, those topics are expressing the true Buddhadharma.
I’m well aware they are part of Buddhist doctrine. I didn’t ask about Buddhist doctrine, I asked about the Buddhadharma.

Let me rephrase as another question. Do you think the Buddhadharma is found in the teachings?
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Koan was written in literature but specific koan questions are given by teachers. Each individual is unique with their karma as to where they are stuck.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by LastLegend »

clyde wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:36 pm I think narhwal90 has made good points. Teachers can be helpful, even if one doesn’t have a ‘formal relationship’. And (IRL) sanghas are beneficial to one’s practice.

And to address your repeated question, no topic, no “relative affairs”, nothing is outside of Buddhadharma.
Given that one has sufficient samadhi.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by narhwal90 »

Owlsd wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:14 pm
clyde wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:36 pm I think narhwal90 has made good points. Teachers can be helpful, even if one doesn’t have a ‘formal relationship’. And (IRL) sanghas are beneficial to one’s practice.

And to address your repeated question, no topic, no “relative affairs”, nothing is outside of Buddhadharma.
Could you explain?

My understanding is that there is the mind. And there are concepts.

There is no distinction to be made here, because the concepts are the Buddhamind in truth, and not whatever you conceptualize.

So to say that this is the Buddha, is to take the Slave as the Master.

In other words if we talk about relative affairs as if they are the Buddha, we mistake the concept for the truth. When you see a cat, you don’t see a cat. When you see a tree, you don’t see a tree. What you see is the Buddhamind in truth.

If you continue to talk about cats and trees you are not talking about the Buddhamind, and engaging in delusion.

Is this a misguided outlook I have?

You seem very invested in your ideas- which is definitely one of the things that can happen when attempting a DIY practice. Are you looking for a "yes, you're right- you have Zen all figured out"?
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Owlsd »

You seem very invested in your ideas- which is definitely one of the things that can happen when attempting a DIY practice. Are you looking for a "yes, you're right- you have Zen all figured out"?
I’m sorry I’ve given you that impression. No I’m not looking for someone to tell me, “Yes, you get it!” Although that is nice to hear, that’s not what motivates me.

I have serious questions! (In my mind at least, they’re probably just points of attachment I’m not ready to stop dwelling on)

I’m not trying to offend anyone or anything like that. If you don’t want to answer my questions, then don’t you know, this is probably just a little hell I’m pulling you all in due to my own confusions.

To me these questions are essential to my fundamental understanding of the Tathagata. I don’t want to be misled or to mislead others.

I’m posting questions that I think are rather clearly laid out, and I’m just speaking an honest discussion on the matter so I can have clarity.

So far I’ve received either unequivocal answers, recommendations to find a teacher, (which is nice!), or talk about painting and hiking, which, while nice as well, aren’t zen either.

I just want clarity, that’s all.

Because that last sentence, is really I guess what lays it all out.

Are painting and hiking Zen? Some would say they are, they would point at these things and say, “this is it!”

Some would say they aren’t, and point at painting and hiking and go, “this isn’t it!”

I guess I really shouldn’t see it either way right? Hiking and painting are neither it nor not it. Affirmations, Denials.

Idk, it’s scary in a way to have to figure it out alone up here, I’m just looking for help I guess, and I’m not really interested in teachers, I’m interested in what my fellow wayfarers think, because you’re just as much it as I am! Or not it, or both and neither.

Surely you have some opinions. Or maybe you all are further along than me, and don’t hold an opinion on the matter at all.

I think I just took myself on a trip with this one, so thanks I guess. Maybe I saw something through this conversation, maybe not. I don’t know anymore.
Last edited by Owlsd on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by narhwal90 »

As far as I can tell Zen isn't about having ideas about things. The sutras and commentaries are pointing hands, not the dharma itself. Any fundamental understanding, as cognition, will be delusion when grasped as fact. The more refined one's understanding the more subtly grasping and delusion imprisons oneself.

So why learn anything, of what use are the ideas? For my money, its to inform and instruct one's own conduct of body and mind. It might be preferable to start with the 4NT, 3 Jewels , the Precepts, the Vows- these and many others can be viewed as basic training in conduct. It is helpful to refine one's perception of one's own mind, to perceive the ever more subtle forms of grasping, aversion, tendency, and then choose conduct more appropriately. Sometimes it is helpful to have a teacher on hand to point these things out- such can arise during simple conversation.

The mind is revealed on the cushion and with the paintbrush- why not also on a hike, while cooking or digging a ditch?

But then again others might find their instruction in formal, exacting practices. The only way to find out is to try.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Owlsd wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:14 pm
Could you explain?

My understanding is that there is the mind. And there are concepts.

There is no distinction to be made here, because the concepts are the Buddhamind in truth, and not whatever you conceptualize.

So to say that this is the Buddha, is to take the Slave as the Master.

In other words if we talk about relative affairs as if they are the Buddha, we mistake the concept for the truth. When you see a cat, you don’t see a cat. When you see a tree, you don’t see a tree. What you see is the Buddhamind in truth.

If you continue to talk about cats and trees you are not talking about the Buddhamind, and engaging in delusion.

Is this a misguided outlook I have?
What part of you is Buddha nature and what part makes the distinction or does not make the distinction?
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Karma is habit...
Actually habit is a facet of karma. It’s under the awkwardly worded “ripening which reflects the seed of the act.” In other words if you do something once that lays the seed of doing it again. And then repeatedly.

This goes for both good habits as well as bad.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:08 am
Karma is habit...
Actually habit is a facet of karma. It’s under the awkwardly worded “ripening which reflects the seed of the act.” In other words if you do something once that lays the seed of doing it again. And then repeatedly.

This goes for both good habits as well as bad.
Okay
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Owlsd wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:25 pmKoans are castle studies of real interactions Zen Masters engaged in. Why would you dismiss what they say?
Koans are not records of historical events but religious literary products. They can be used in various ways and with various approaches. But they are definitely not the whole picture of what went on in various communities over the centuries.
I’m well aware they are part of Buddhist doctrine. I didn’t ask about Buddhist doctrine, I asked about the Buddhadharma.
Let me rephrase as another question. Do you think the Buddhadharma is found in the teachings?
The Buddhadharma is what the Buddha taught, and what the Buddha taught are found in the sutras. Without the sutras even the word Buddhadharma is meaningless. That does not mean it is enough to just know the sutras, and that is something the sutras themselves agree on.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Russian »

Astus wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:06 am Koans are not records of historical events but religious literary products. They can be used in various ways and with various approaches. But they are definitely not the whole picture of what went on in various communities over the centuries.
Wild teachers are a living example of koans. Wild style, when the teacher does not adhere to the rules, but acts at ease. Such teachers may well do as they do in the koans.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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One disciple asked Zen master Sun San, " Some Zen monks are more strict and formal than others. And some have a free style. What is this supposed to mean?”

Dae Seong Sa Nim replied, " There are two kinds of teachers in Korean Buddhism. There are several famous stories about the great Zen master Chun Song. He was a very free Zen master. He dropped the formal style and did a lot of wild things. He gave a lot of ambiguous speeches, used all kinds of dirty words, and did wrong things, but it was all teaching for other people. His freedom was not for himself, not for me-me-my. Sometimes, people really didn't like what he said or did. Later, they understood. He wasn't worried about what he was doing — he wasn't doing it for himself. He always acted in a reflective way: good deeds, bad deeds - it doesn't matter. He didn't care if anyone thought it was good or bad. He only tried. This constantly trying mind means: don't test yourself. This is one type of Zen monk.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by LastLegend »

Koan doesn’t have to be a story. It could be a question...well with answer (not from previous learning) or without answer. Like we can ask ourselves: what constructs self?
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

Post by Russian »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:51 am Koan doesn’t have to be a story. It could be a question...well with answer (not prom precious learning) or with out answer. Like we can ask ourselves: what constructs self?
And do wild teachers, mad teachers, repeat stories like koans, are they not living examples of koans?
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Yeah sure...but it’s not useful to us.
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Re: Does the Tathagata reside in Dhyana?

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Direct question. Direct experience. The question is not easy.
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