Sound in Zen

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LastLegend
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Sound in Zen

Post by LastLegend »

So what knows and distinguishes sounds? It must be aware-consciousness because without distinguishing, how do we know sounds? This is why consciousness is embedded. Make enlightenment of emptiness difficult.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sound in Zen

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Actually embedded is not accurate it changes.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Sound in Zen

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Suppose you wear perfect sound-blocking headphones, so that you can’t hear anything at all,
How would you know you can’t hear anything at all, if you can’t hear anything at all?

(In the Shurangama Sutra, the Buddha poses this question to Ananda, except using the example of sight and covering the eyes do you can’t see. How do you know you can’t see if you can’t see anything?)

It is this “original mind” of awareness that knows.
Further, suppose as a child you listened to a recording of a popular song. Years later you are older and you hear the same song. Does the song sound different? Has your awareness of that song changed with age? No. This demonstrates the unchanging quality of the “original mind” of awareness.

(In the same sutra, the Buddha uses the example of looking at the Ganges River as a child and again as an adult: one’s “seeing” is exactly the same. The visual awareness hadn’t aged).
EMPTIFUL.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sound in Zen

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That’s right. That’s original awareness. But go back to sound, sound becomes an object of distinction. Because how does one know sounds? There is nothing wrong with training hearing sounds clearly or not hearing it but still know. The point is at what point is enlightenment confirmed? My teacher says the complete cessation of awareness subject versus object.
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Re: Sound in Zen

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LastLegend wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:55 pm So what knows and distinguishes sounds? It must be aware-consciousness because without distinguishing, how do we know sounds? This is why consciousness is embedded. Make enlightenment of emptiness difficult.
The mind divides, delimits, separates.
During the night Wonhyo was overcome with thirst, and reaching out grasped what he perceived to be a gourd, and drinking from it was refreshed with a draught of cool, refreshing water. Upon waking the next morning, however, the companions discovered much to their amazement that their shelter was in fact an ancient tomb littered with human skulls, and the vessel from which Wonhyo had drunk was a human skull full of brackish water. Upon seeing this, Wonhyo vomited. Startled by the experience of believing that a gruesome liquid was a refreshing treat, Wonhyo was astonished at the power of the human mind to transform reality. After this "One Mind" enlightenment experience, he abandoned his plan to go to China.
Who divides, delimits, who separates? Mind!
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LastLegend
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Re: Sound in Zen

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We can further ask: how does it divide?
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Re: Sound in Zen

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:28 am That’s right. That’s original awareness. But go back to sound, sound becomes an object of distinction. Because how does one know sounds? There is nothing wrong with training hearing sounds clearly or not hearing it but still know. The point is at what point is enlightenment confirmed? My teacher says the complete cessation of awareness subject versus object.
It’s like layers of onion....what can be recognized is this if we itch, the hand raises to scratch it. Nothing has arisen in that instantaneous act not even awareness of the itch. Yet how did it know itch.
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Re: Sound in Zen

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Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware. Responding, arching your brows blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.

Source: Bodhidharma Bloodstream Sermon
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Re: Sound in Zen

Post by Russian »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:44 am It’s like layers of onion....what can be recognized is this if we itch, the hand raises to scratch it. Nothing has arisen in that instantaneous act not even awareness of the itch. Yet how did it know itch.
I don't remember, I won't remember the fragment, but it seems that something about sound, or hearing, is said, either in the Shurangama Sutra, or in the Mahayana-sraddhotpada shastra. Or maybe in both treatises.
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Re: Sound in Zen

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:12 am Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware. Responding, arching your brows blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.

Source: Bodhidharma Bloodstream Sermon
Zen master Sung San said: " All human beings try to understand too much, to understand too much, and then to get into as much trouble. You know less, you have less problems, but let me finish: "I don't know" - no problem. Thus, the "I do not know" view is very important, if you adhere to the "I do not know" view 100 %, then at this point everything and everything becomes one. Now I ask you, when you hold the "I do not know" view and at that moment everything and everything becomes one, at that moment this stick and this sound (hitting the stick on the table) and your true Self are they different, or are they the same? That's right (everyone laughs)."

Look - https://youtu.be/VpVDTeWTfmc
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LastLegend
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Re: Sound in Zen

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What knows “I don’t know?” Sorry I can’t help!
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Re: Sound in Zen

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:24 am What knows “I don’t know?” Sorry I can’t help!
This method is called the ignorant mind,"the mind does not know".
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Re: Sound in Zen

Post by Russian »

Sayings of Zen Master Sung San Dae Sung Sa Nim:

"I just don't know. Go straight. If we do this, we have no problems; when we have no problems, there is no tension. We are constantly in tension because of problems: problems of the past, problems of the future. But when there is no problem, there is no tension. "I brought only one teaching to America: the ignorant mind." That's all you need to know: I don't know. The most important thing you can do is to learn how to hold very tightly the great question "What am I?" Holding this question with great determination, what will appear before you is only"I don't know". There is no thinking. There is no more speech or words, because all thinking is completely cut off. The name for this is "I don't know" The other name for this is true self or true nature".
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Re: Sound in Zen

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Still contradicting. But okay as long as I don’t know is not distracted.
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Re: Sound in Zen

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Sayings of Zen Master Sung San Dae Sung Sa Nim:

"When you ask yourself this question — "What am I? ""Just don't know" — then you, the universe, and all things — BOOM! — become one. If you keep this ignorant mind always and everywhere, your true work appears very clearly right in front of you. Then what is Zen Buddhism? Zen never talks about the absolute or the world of opposites. He does not try to explain emptiness, truth, or the perfect world. Zen practice never explains anything. Zen simply points directly at our mind. Zen teaching never checks (does not investigate, does not hold on) the world of opposites, does not test (does not investigate, does not hold) the absolute, never speaks of a perfect world. The whole Zen teaching only points to your mind, just this moment. What are you doing now? Zen teaching always brings us back to what we call " the world of this moment." This point is very important. In one moment — everything. In the moment, there is infinite time and infinite space. [Bangs the table loudly with his stick.] In the moment, there is the right path, the truth, and the right life. [Bangs the table loudly.] In a moment! In this one moment — everything [blow], and in this moment — nothing [blow again]. So, if you comprehend this moment, you will immediately comprehend everything. This is zen. No mind [kick], no Buddha [kick], no God [kick], nothing! [blow] But here is the mind [blow], the Buddha [blow], God [blow], all things! To experience this is Zen Buddhism. With practice, your thinking calms down and becomes less confusing, less complicated. This allows you to see that once your mind becomes clearer, you can actually balance your thinking and emotions. By bringing your thinking and emotions into balance in this way, you can get rid of suffering and get happiness. As a result, your mind remains immobile, regardless of the ever-changing external conditions. You can see clearly, hear clearly, taste clearly, touch clearly-everything is beautiful just as it is. The most important thing is to keep the mind still from moment to moment. In fact, this is the real meaning of the term Samadhi. It means having a mind that is immobile whether we are sitting, standing, lying down, driving, or talking about anything. When you keep a strong, still mind in any activity, you can perceive the true beauty of this everyday, ordinary world, because you can see things exactly as they are. You can deepen your understanding so that it becomes wisdom. If you can perceive the true nature of the phenomenal world, and you see that everything is constantly changing, then your desirer-the mind and the suffering it brings-disappears".
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Re: Sound in Zen

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LastLegend wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:38 am Still contradicting. But okay as long as I don’t know is not distracted.
Check out the recordings of Zen master Sung San's conversations on YouTube. He brought the Korean Zen tradition to the United States. There are many recordings of his speech on YouTube. In English! The master lived in America and spoke English. And you can also find a book: "Zen Compass", or a book: "Sprinkling the Buddha with ashes".
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Re: Sound in Zen

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I think it’s a good practice. In that passage. One would need him as a teacher because there is a danger of becoming a nihilistic state when the mind isn’t clear.
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LastLegend
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Re: Sound in Zen

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There is danger of reading the texts and practice without proper guidance or knowledge but hey if one feels confident.
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Re: Sound in Zen

Post by Russian »

Sayings of Zen Master Sung San Dae Sung Sa Nim:

"If you think, then you can't find your mind anywhere. If you cut off your thinking — which means cutting off your attachment to thinking — then your true nature appears everywhere".
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