Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

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Russian
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Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

What does he mean by that?
The spiritual light shines alone,
Freeing the senses from the dust of the world.
Experiencing True Eternity
Does not depend on any scriptures.
The nature of consciousness is uncontaminated,
Essentially perfect.
But getting rid of the misleading reasons
This is the same as the Buddha.
A cloud of Emptiness.

Biography and instructions of the great Chan teacher Xu-yun
I would like to get an explanation, a comment on each line of the verse.

I think that in this verse, no metaphysics is implied, no, but rather speaks of emptiness as the true eternity. Asamskrit as eternal, undying, unborn. True eternity, as the principle of non-connectedness, non-conditionality, as the opposite of the world of determination, impermanence, interdependent occurrence. True eternity, as opposed to all this. What do you think?
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

Well, the Pali texts also speak of Nibbana as an immortal element, not meaning metaphysics, but simply that as the opposite of impermanence, passivity. I think it's the same in Xu-Yun's gath.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Astus »

The poem is actually by Guling Shenzan of Fuzhou (福州古靈神贊), an heir of Baizhang Huaihai (百丈懷海), and the verse itself, what was quoted by Xuyun, is found in fascicle 9 of the Jingde Chuandeng Lu (T51n2076_p0268a21-23):

靈光獨耀逈脫根塵。
體露真常不拘文字。
心性無染本自圓成。
但離妄緣即如如佛。

Charles Luk's translation:

Spiritual light shines on in solitude
Disentangling the sense organs from sense data.
Experience of true eternity
Depends not just on books.
Mind-nature being taintless
Fundamentally is perfect.
Freedom from falsehood-producing causes
Is the same as absolute Buddhahood.

Garma C. C. Chang translation (The Practice of Zen, p 20):

Singularly radiating is the wondrous Light;
Free is it from the bondage of matter and the senses.
Not binding by words and letters,
The Essence is nakedly exposed in its pure eternity.
Never defiled is the Mind-nature;
It exists in perfection from the very beginning.
By merely casting away your delusions
The Suchness of Buddhahood is realized.

Translation from Global Jikji:

Spiritual light shines by itself and has transcended the world of consciousness.
Essence is exposed and not confined by words.
The mind is not tainted and is complete in itself.
Thus, if it can free itself from false conditions, it will be the true Buddha.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

Astus wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:30 pm
And in more detail, can you reveal, explain the meaning of the gath? To go straight into full detail, please.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

Astus wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:30 pm
Question: Is there any metaphysics here? Does the gath, the verse, the metaphysics imply, or not?
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Astus »

The poem gives a standard Zen teaching that by not grasping at the six sensory inputs with mistaken concepts (being/nonbeing, self/other, etc.), there is complete awakening.

靈光獨耀 Divine light shines alone - this refers back to the discourse between Jiexian and Shenzan about the Dharma hall, and at the same time introduces the topic as the liberated mind of the buddhas
逈脫根塵 Free from all sensory dust - it is free from the appearances in the six senses; dust (塵) referring both to sensory objects and to defilements
體露真常 The essence shows true permanence - it is buddha-mind that shows the ultimate reality
不拘文字 Not bound to letters - the nature of mind is not discovered with concepts, not learnt from books, also a reference to Jiexian's reading habits
心性無染 Mind's nature is untainted - there are no defilements in the nature of mind
本自圓成 Originally perfect and complete - no qualities need to be developed or added to it
但離妄緣 Just leave false conditions - one only has to let go of fictional concepts that condition the mind
即如如佛 That is buddha as such - it is suchness and buddhahood
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by oryoki »

Russian wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:49 pm
Astus wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:30 pm
Question: Is there any metaphysics here? Does the gath, the verse, the metaphysics imply, or not?
About some "metaphysical substance" please read the text in the link below and notice the last comment. The link points to entry in the blog "awakening to reality" and this particular entry points to some of the teachings of Bodhidharma:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/ ... tions.html

More on the teachings of Bodhidharma in the blog can be found via this link:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search?q=Hui+Lu+
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by reiun »

Not productive so far, and off topic to boot, so O&O.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

I think that it speaks of freedom as non-attachment, and not of a consciousness that knows beyond the senses. Most likely, we are talking about the first, and the second - no, it is not implied, it is impossible.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

In Russian:

Думаю, что там о свободе, как о непривязанности говорится, а не о некоем познающем вне органов чувств сознании.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Russian »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:55 pm It’s fine. Okay. You tell me what Zen tradition is. How about pointing to Buddha nature as Bodhidharma says: without using scripture point to the heart of man. Buddha nature is within the direct experience. So what is Buddha nature?
The Zen tradition is the tradition of the Lankavatara Sutra that Bodhidharma brought to China. This is a subsequent tradition of the patriarchs. In addition to the fact that zen has always been associated with a teacher who shows you the way and checks your comprehension, zen is also a literary tradition, zen spread through the recorded statements of teachers, through collections of koans, through sutras that teachers brought. In general, according to the rules, ideally, you need a teacher, a master who will guide you. You guys live in America, you have so many centers, so many teachers, so take it, use it. Even Zen masters come to Russia to talk about the Dharma, conduct meditation retreats, and answer questions. I unfortunately live in the outback, in the province, no one comes here. They only come to Moscow and St. Petersburg, and I live in Siberia, in the Altai Territory, in the city of Rubtsovsk. This is not even a city as such, but an urban-type settlement.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Ayu »

Off topic discussion removed.
Please

:focus:
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by Realmwalker »

The spiritual light shines alone,
Freeing the senses from the dust of the world.
Experiencing True Eternity
Does not depend on any scriptures.
The nature of consciousness is uncontaminated,
Essentially perfect.
But getting rid of the misleading reasons
This is the same as the Buddha.
A cloud of Emptiness.

The spiritual light shines alone:
The Buddha nature is beyond relativity. Night depends on day, day upon night. Only by relating to each other can they exist. This is called duality. But it is said the Buddha nature is non-dual and non-relative, therefore it is self-existent.

Freeing the senses from the world of dust:
A mind that is restless and constantly reactive to sensory input can simply not attain the clarity that is needed to touch upon this transcendental realm of non-relativity/non-duality. A restless mind is scattered, so that one's energy cannot be directed, and so cannot find the subtler facets of exitence.

Experiencing True Eternity:
True Eternity, for Buddha nature is independend; it neither arises or passes away. A strict non-dualistic interpretation might however say that the Buddha nature is neither transient or eternal, because saying it is either "this" or "that" implies it is still within the realm of relativity - of duality, where two opposites can be compared to one-another. I however believe that one who attains the transcendental realm while having attained emotional emanciptation, shall be sustained forever by that transcendental realm. For me, this is the meaning of nirvana.

The nature of consciousness is uncontaminated, essentially perfect:
There is an observer within us all that beholds the countless changes of the body and the mind, and yet is itself never affected by it. In our confusion we are identified with the body and the mind, so people rarely find the seat of this flawless, unaffected observer.

But getting rid of the misleading reasons:
This means that true clarity is attained in this stillness, this non-duality and pure seeing. Reasoning, the process of logical machination, is just comparing a thought against thought so that one dwells ever confined within the trappings of the mind. Pure awareness is true seeing - seeing things for what they are without any censorship of personal opinions or personal philosophies, though what you come to understand you may never be able to put to words for this very reason. It might however inspire you into poetry, so that you can move the hearts of others unto the mystical realm you have achieved.

This is the same as the Buddha.
A cloud of emptiness:

This last two lines seem to imply this is the very nature and achievement of Lord Buddha Shakyamuni himself.

Just my two cents from my humble beggar's bowl.
May I be forgiven for my obvious ignorance.

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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by master of puppets »

my comment :

To ponder on what is what is unnecessary. Practice is the key.
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Re: Please give a comment on the Xūyún (虛雲) gath

Post by master of puppets »

master of puppets wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:31 pm my comment :

To ponder on what is what is unnecessary. Practice is the key.
If you are looking for a wisdom outside of this everything is everything.
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