Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Nicholas2727
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:44 am

Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

The more I have studied Vajrayana Buddhism, I have realized that there are a few philosophical differences between each school and I was wondering if this is the same for Japanese Zen schools? Many of the differences I have found between Rinzai and Soto Zen have to do with practice, although I was not able to find any information on philosophical differences between the schools. Hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject could provide some information on this.
Genjo Conan
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Genjo Conan »

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "philosophical differences"? What sort of thing are you looking for?
karmanyingpo
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:19 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by karmanyingpo »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm Could you elaborate on what you mean by "philosophical differences"? What sort of thing are you looking for?
Hello Genjo Conan. I believe this person is referring to things like different philosophical views on emptiness (like shentong and rantong in Tibetan Buddhism). Perhaps things like views on buddha nature, emptiness, and 2 truths doctrine.

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by DNS »

I'm no expert at Zen, but I believe the differences are mostly about the practice differences.

The Rinzai uses koan practice and study. And they believe in instant enlightenment and kensho experiences, rather than gradual.

The Soto focuses more on sitting practice, Shikantaza, sitting in conscious awareness. I believe they focus more on a gradual path.
Genjo Conan
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Genjo Conan »

DNS wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:56 pm I'm no expert at Zen, but I believe the differences are mostly about the practice differences.

The Rinzai uses koan practice and study. And they believe in instant enlightenment and kensho experiences, rather than gradual.

The Soto focuses more on sitting practice, Shikantaza, sitting in conscious awareness. I believe they focus more on a gradual path.
Soto is a sudden enlightenment school, as are all extant Zen lineages that stem from the Sixth Ancestor's southern school--which, I believe, is all of them.

Edit: I don't mean to be abrupt, and I'm happy to try to add more later, it's just that I'm on my phone :)
Nicholas2727
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm Could you elaborate on what you mean by "philosophical differences"? What sort of thing are you looking for?
I was specifically referring to views on emptiness and Buddha Nature, although I would be curious to understand any other differences they have in regards to philosophy or study. I understand they have different views on koans and zazen, but was more curious on the philosophy side.
Genjo Conan
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Genjo Conan »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:30 pm
I was specifically referring to views on emptiness and Buddha Nature
None that I'm aware of. There are differences in how we see Buddha nature manifesting, but I think that goes more to your distinction between practices rather than any basic ontological conflict.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Astus »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:02 pmThe more I have studied Vajrayana Buddhism, I have realized that there are a few philosophical differences between each school and I was wondering if this is the same for Japanese Zen schools?
There would have to be a philosophical view in the first place to then allow comparison. Although one can find some unique perspectives in the works of Dogen and Hakuin, but they did not propose anything systematic. It is rather the hallmark of Zen (Japanese or otherwise) that the main bonding factor is lineage, and not doctrine or method.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by kirtu »

Astus wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:25 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:02 pmThe more I have studied Vajrayana Buddhism, I have realized that there are a few philosophical differences between each school and I was wondering if this is the same for Japanese Zen schools?
Although one can find some unique perspectives in the works of Dogen and Hakuin, but they did not propose anything systematic.
They both assert that one's very own fathom-long body is the Buddha.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by narhwal90 »

There are many very specific instructions and views in Shobogenzo, but perhaps I am misunderstanding?
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Astus »

kirtu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:59 pmThey both assert that one's very own fathom-long body is the Buddha.
The idea of buddha-nature has been well regarded in China even before Bodhidharma, and it has been accepted by influential schools like the Sanlun, the Tiantai, and the Huayan. To say that Soto and Rinzai have their own philosophies about buddha-nature, they should present some definition and explanation, but if you look at for instance Dogen's Bussho, there isn't that much of a philosophical view to take away from it, although it can serve as a starting point to invent one.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Astus »

narhwal90 wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:15 pmThere are many very specific instructions and views in Shobogenzo, but perhaps I am misunderstanding?
Are there? Any examples maybe?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by KeithA »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:02 pm The more I have studied Vajrayana Buddhism, I have realized that there are a few philosophical differences between each school and I was wondering if this is the same for Japanese Zen schools? Many of the differences I have found between Rinzai and Soto Zen have to do with practice, although I was not able to find any information on philosophical differences between the schools. Hoping someone with more knowledge on the subject could provide some information on this.
As DNS mentioned, the difference is primarily one of method of practice. Soto (Caodong) can be characterized as "just sitting" Zen and Rinzai (Lin Chi) as "ask a question" Zen. Of course, this is very much an oversimplification and there are all sorts of rabbit holes that can be gone down, with adherents to either tradition championing their cause. But, both posit sudden enlightenment in this lifetime. Some traditions have argued that this sudden enlightenment is final (sudden/sudden) while some suggest this sudden enlightenment is followed by gradual cultivation (sudden/gradual). That's not really important to practitioners though. Whatever we think it is, it isn't that. :smile:

_/|\_
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by narhwal90 »

Astus wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:53 am
narhwal90 wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:15 pmThere are many very specific instructions and views in Shobogenzo, but perhaps I am misunderstanding?
Are there? Any examples maybe?
Instructions on how to lay out the facilties, instructions on bathroom conduct, instructions on how to make the robes and what materials that should be used and why. Extensive discussion on correct and incorrect views... my favorite of the currently incomprehensible ones is the discussion of clear vs ancient mirrors. Shobogenzo looks to me like instruction about view and behavior from beginning to end. I could buy it as extensive instruction and view to point how exactly which views and behaviors to ultimately be relinquished; ie if one is to relinquish a view about something it is important to understand exactly what that view is, how other aspects of experience & cognitition are affected- this is not a vague and sentimental process.

Shobogenzo is airplane reading for me, I've not gotten to the sections on cooking yet but I hear they are formidably prescriptive as well.
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I once heard a quote from some luminary or other to the effect that "Soto is like walking through a light drizzle and getting your clothes soaked, while Rinzai is like getting a bucket of water dumped over your head." In both cases the clothes are equally soaked but the "style" is different.

I like this quote but it should not be taken as implying that Rinzai is "sudden" and Soto is "gradual." As Genjo Conan noted above, both schools are "sudden."

Rinzai puts a lot of emphasis on kensho, which is a kind of startling awakening, but kensho can be achieved and lost many many times, so "stabilizing kensho" is an important part of the path.

Either way they are both sudden, and both paths also usually take a long time to truly advance in.
:D
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
User avatar
oryoki
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by oryoki »

FiveSkandhas wrote:

I once heard a quote from some luminary or other to the effect that "Soto is like walking through a light drizzle and getting your clothes soaked, while Rinzai is like getting a bucket of water dumped over your head." In both cases the clothes are equally soaked but the "style" is different.

There is a fundamental difference between a Soto person and a Rinzai person in approach to meditation practice. At the start, on Sunday, of one week long Sesshin, the Soto person hopes to get enlightened by the next weekend. The Rinzai person knows that he/she gets enlightened already by Wednesday. :lol:
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Astus »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:31 pmInstructions on how to lay out the facilties, instructions on bathroom conduct, instructions on how to make the robes and what materials that should be used and why.
Maybe it could be put under the category of ethics to argue against the use of toothbrush, as Dogen does in Senmen, but that's not much of a philosophical standpoint, nor an instruction one would follow outside of a very traditional style monastic setting.
Extensive discussion on correct and incorrect views...
Could you give an example or two of Dogen's specific views on topics like the four wisdoms, five hindrances, six perfections, etc.? At the same time, even if Dogen did have some specific interpretations of the Dharma, it's another matter whether the past and present Soto school is defined by them.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by narhwal90 »

Astus wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:57 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:31 pmInstructions on how to lay out the facilties, instructions on bathroom conduct, instructions on how to make the robes and what materials that should be used and why.
Maybe it could be put under the category of ethics to argue against the use of toothbrush, as Dogen does in Senmen, but that's not much of a philosophical standpoint, nor an instruction one would follow outside of a very traditional style monastic setting.
Extensive discussion on correct and incorrect views...
Could you give an example or two of Dogen's specific views on topics like the four wisdoms, five hindrances, six perfections, etc.? At the same time, even if Dogen did have some specific interpretations of the Dharma, it's another matter whether the past and present Soto school is defined by them.
I agree that Dogen doesn't comment extensively on the lists otoh I just picked two chapters at random; Zazengi and Plum Blossom. A cursory glance at the former shows detailed instruction on how to sit, how to compose the mind, and the latter shows instruction on view. Other chapters I've read are not dissimilar. I'm not arguing for a fundamentalist approach where Dogen is to be taken literally as the final word and so on, but that the school has an extensive heritage of commentary and instruction in view and conduct- including sutra study, however it may have evolved since. The Soto group I've been hanging out with has a weekly study meeting where a variety of commentaries and sutras are taken up in rotation, progress (from my perspective) seems to occur when the "just sit" sessions are balanced by study sessions and discussion.

When I start up with my Soto guy wrt sutra and commentary discussion he has occasionally mentioned such approaches are more Rinzai in form, so perhaps something like that could be basis for contrast.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by Astus »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:40 pmA cursory glance at the former shows detailed instruction on how to sit, how to compose the mind, and the latter shows instruction on view.
Let's consider Zazengi a bit then, because I would not call this one page writing a 'detailed instruction' on anything really. It has a shorter paragraph as a sort of preliminary considerations, and then a longer one on everything he has to mention on doing zazen. What are his instructions on what to be done with the mind once one has the posture? 'Sitting in balance in the mountain-still state, think the concrete state of not thinking. How can the state of not thinking be thought? It is non-thinking.' (SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 3, p 226) As for what 'non-thinking' means, it is not clarified anywhere, and it is only through some further research (e.g. Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation by Carl Bielefeldt) that one can see how Dogen gradually rewrote Zhanglu Zongze's manual (The Baizhang Zen Monastic Regulations, BDK ed, p 253-255) to be more fitting to his Zen literary style. But likely because Dogen's very short instruction is so cryptic, modern instructions of both Soto and Rinzai follow the slightly more explicit form of Zongze.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
FiveSkandhas
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Philosophical differences between Soto and Rinzai?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

It's a mistake to think Soto Zen is less involved with "words and texts" than Rinzai. Soto also uses koans, although less conspicuously than Rinzai, perhaps.

The typical path to Soto priesthood in Japan involves 4 years of "Soto Studies" at a sect-affiliated University like Komazawa Daigaku. Then there are training temples.

Koans necessitate a familiarity with classical Chinese and Japanese, both linguistically and in terms of how they make reference to certain literary tropes, famous Zen exchanges, familiar tales that are taken as background knowledge, and so on. In actual practice in contemporary Japan, this often involves brute-force memorization of "answers" from cheat-sheet-type manuals as well as the more refined ability to match suitable "capping phrases" from a collection thereof with the koan in question.

A huge amount of time and effort is also expended learning rituals and things like how to conduct funerals, which is the economic mainstay of modern Japanese temples of all sects.

Both Rinzai and Soto have rich textual and ritual/liturgical traditions that are an integral part of study in Japan. This dimension of Zen is generally radically de-emphasized at Zen Centers in the west, where you often get nothing but Zazen and maybe a little chanting.

It seems to me, based on limited knowledge, that the ultimate differences between Soto and Rinzai are less in abstract doctrine and more in ritual and practice, as others have opined in this thread.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Post Reply

Return to “Zen”