Study in Zen

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Nicholas2727
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Study in Zen

Post by Nicholas2727 »

From my understanding, Zen puts more focus on practice then study, although I was wondering how much study of the Dharma is there traditionally in Zen? I am speaking for both the Soto school and the Rinzai school. I have watched a few videos and from my understanding, the Heart Sutra is recited and studied, but other sutras are not commonly mentioned. Looking through the different forums here, it is easy to see how much importance is put on study and philosophy in Tibetan Buddhism, so I was wondering how much importance is put on these in Zen.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by FiveSkandhas »

If you are really interested in this topic, I recommend the book Zen Sand by Victor Sogen Hori. It really gives a sense of the depths of literary study necessary to properly respond to Koans in a Rinzai context.

In Japan, to be a formally ordained Rinzai or Soto priest, there are a variety of paths, but the most "orthodox" and common path involves a degree in Buddhist Studies from a university associated with the sect in question. I don't know so much about the Soto path, but a tremendous amount of intellectual work (especially study of classical Chinese texts) is demanded by the Rinzai schools. Moreover, once you leave the university and practice, one's classical knowledge is put to the test in the training period through the proper use of Koans. And there are various levels in the hierarchy of Rinzai priesthood; advance "up the ladder" seems to involve more reading and textual study in addition to Zazen.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Genjo Conan
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Genjo Conan »

I can try to respond in more depth later, but I think the notion that Soto Zen is anti-intellectual, or that it's not important to study the scriptures and the commentaries, is largely (though not entirely) a modern, western misperception. Taking Dogen as just one example, it's clear that he was not only intimately familiar with both the Chinese canon and commentarial tradition, but that--and maybe more importantly--he expected his audience to be equally familiar with those texts, such that he expected them to immediately understand those references. Themes from the Lotus Sutra, for example, run throughout his work, but he rarely writes: "this is what the Lotus Sutra says." I think that suggests a broad familiarity.

Again, I'll try to write more later.
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Astus
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Re: Study in Zen

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Genjo Conan wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:25 pmTaking Dogen as just one example
At the end of each volume of the BDK edition of Shobogenzo there is a bibliography of the main Chinese sources quoted by Dogen.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Nicholas2727
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Nicholas2727 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 pm If you are really interested in this topic, I recommend the book Zen Sand by Victor Sogen Hori. It really gives a sense of the depths of literary study necessary to properly respond to Koans in a Rinzai context.

In Japan, to be a formally ordained Rinzai or Soto priest, there are a variety of paths, but the most "orthodox" and common path involves a degree in Buddhist Studies from a university associated with the sect in question. I don't know so much about the Soto path, but a tremendous amount of intellectual work (especially study of classical Chinese texts) is demanded by the Rinzai schools. Moreover, once you leave the university and practice, one's classical knowledge is put to the test in the training period through the proper use of Koans. And there are various levels in the hierarchy of Rinzai priesthood; advance "up the ladder" seems to involve more reading and textual study in addition to Zazen.
Thank you for the information and the book suggestion! Do you know if there are similar requirements for Rinzai priests in the west? I am not sure if there are any universities that offer a Buddhist Study degree specifically for Zen priests here, although I would assume there is still a focus on study in the west.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Genjo Conan wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:25 pm I can try to respond in more depth later, but I think the notion that Soto Zen is anti-intellectual, or that it's not important to study the scriptures and the commentaries, is largely (though not entirely) a modern, western misperception. Taking Dogen as just one example, it's clear that he was not only intimately familiar with both the Chinese canon and commentarial tradition, but that--and maybe more importantly--he expected his audience to be equally familiar with those texts, such that he expected them to immediately understand those references. Themes from the Lotus Sutra, for example, run throughout his work, but he rarely writes: "this is what the Lotus Sutra says." I think that suggests a broad familiarity.

Again, I'll try to write more later.
Do many qualified Soto Zen teachers in the West hold the importance of study? You mentioned it is a modern misperception that Soto Zen is anti-intellectual, but is this belief shared both by Soto Priests and lay followers? Or do many western Priests balance study and practice?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:18 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 pm If you are really interested in this topic, I recommend the book Zen Sand by Victor Sogen Hori. It really gives a sense of the depths of literary study necessary to properly respond to Koans in a Rinzai context.

In Japan, to be a formally ordained Rinzai or Soto priest, there are a variety of paths, but the most "orthodox" and common path involves a degree in Buddhist Studies from a university associated with the sect in question. I don't know so much about the Soto path, but a tremendous amount of intellectual work (especially study of classical Chinese texts) is demanded by the Rinzai schools. Moreover, once you leave the university and practice, one's classical knowledge is put to the test in the training period through the proper use of Koans. And there are various levels in the hierarchy of Rinzai priesthood; advance "up the ladder" seems to involve more reading and textual study in addition to Zazen.
Thank you for the information and the book suggestion! Do you know if there are similar requirements for Rinzai priests in the west? I am not sure if there are any universities that offer a Buddhist Study degree specifically for Zen priests here, although I would assume there is still a focus on study in the west.
To be honest, I have no idea how formal ordination is handled in the west. I am fairly sure you can do it somehow through temples. A legitimate temple will require years of study/practice, I would guess.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Nicholas2727
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Nicholas2727 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:12 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:18 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:47 pm If you are really interested in this topic, I recommend the book Zen Sand by Victor Sogen Hori. It really gives a sense of the depths of literary study necessary to properly respond to Koans in a Rinzai context.

In Japan, to be a formally ordained Rinzai or Soto priest, there are a variety of paths, but the most "orthodox" and common path involves a degree in Buddhist Studies from a university associated with the sect in question. I don't know so much about the Soto path, but a tremendous amount of intellectual work (especially study of classical Chinese texts) is demanded by the Rinzai schools. Moreover, once you leave the university and practice, one's classical knowledge is put to the test in the training period through the proper use of Koans. And there are various levels in the hierarchy of Rinzai priesthood; advance "up the ladder" seems to involve more reading and textual study in addition to Zazen.
Thank you for the information and the book suggestion! Do you know if there are similar requirements for Rinzai priests in the west? I am not sure if there are any universities that offer a Buddhist Study degree specifically for Zen priests here, although I would assume there is still a focus on study in the west.
To be honest, I have no idea how formal ordination is handled in the west. I am fairly sure you can do it somehow through temples. A legitimate temple will require years of study/practice, I would guess.
I was assuming there was still some kind of requirements to become a priest in either Zen tradition but was unsure. I personally am not interested in Zen ordination, but was trying to understand the requirements here in the West. Thank you!
Genjo Conan
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Genjo Conan »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:23 pm
Do many qualified Soto Zen teachers in the West hold the importance of study? You mentioned it is a modern misperception that Soto Zen is anti-intellectual, but is this belief shared both by Soto Priests and lay followers? Or do many western Priests balance study and practice?
I can't speak for every Soto Zen teacher, but every teacher I've spoken with believes that study is important. My first teacher went back to school post-ordination and got a graduate degree in Buddhist Studies, focusing on Soto Zen in Meiji Japan. With my current teacher, I've spent a lot of time studying Yogacara and the Lankavatara Sutra. Intellectual understanding is not a substitute for direct understanding, but I think for many people, intellectual understanding is a prerequisite for direct understanding, or at least a facilitator.

Now, if the teacher is good, I think the relative importance of study will depend on the student's circumstances. You mention balancing study and practice--yes, that's the goal. Most people will probably be at least a little bit out of balance in one direction or the other; part of the teacher's job, I think, is to recognize that and prescribe the right medicine.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Study in Zen

Post by Genjo Conan »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:18 pm
I was assuming there was still some kind of requirements to become a priest in either Zen tradition but was unsure. I personally am not interested in Zen ordination, but was trying to understand the requirements here in the West. Thank you!
Strictly speaking, the only requirement for ordination is that a transmitted teacher in a recognized lineage is willing to ordain you. Different organization have different guidelines for when a person is properly ordained. At the moment I'm trying and failing to find the Soto Zen Buddhist Association's guidelines for ordination. But I did find on their website a "report discuss[ing] the essential characteristics and skills of a trained priest." They list "knowledge of source texts" as one of the "characteristics and skills of the ideal Soto Zen priest," and write, for example:
The novice priest’s growing capacity to communicate and explain the principal elements of Buddhism and Zen will expand understanding and encourage study on the part of both committed Zen students and the wider community. Also, a Soto Zen priest must be well grounded in the literature in order to give effective dharma talks and to demonstrate the relevance of practice to everyday life. . . . The ability to transmit the Soto tradition requires a solid grounding in Buddhist thought including early Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, Chinese Zen and the Soto Zen lineage refined by Dôgen, Keizan and their successors. Out of respect for our own teachers, it is also appropriate that we learn and carry on the practices particular to our Dharma lineages.
Again, this comes from the SZBA, which is the closest thing American Soto Zen has to an organized church. Other parts of the document of course emphasize the importance of Zazen and pastoral care, but study is not seen as apart from that.
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