What is zen to you?

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FlareStar
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What is zen to you?

Post by FlareStar »

Bonus question: How would you answer Nansen asking for a word of zen?

For those who aren't familiar with the case: http://home.pon.net/wildrose/gateless-14.htm
master of puppets
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by master of puppets »

all the things that you touch are the same
just like the things you hear, taste or smell
how do we know? Because of the emptiness

this is my zen today 13.10.2020
narhwal90
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Re: What is zen to you?

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Astus
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Re: What is zen to you?

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A monk asked Mazu, “Please indicate the meaning of Chan directly, apart from all permutations of assertion and denial.”
Mazu said, “I’m tired today and can’t explain for you. Go ask Zhizang.”
When the monk asked Zhizang, Zhizang said, “Why not ask the teacher?”
The monk said, “He told me to ask you.”
Zhizang said, “I have a headache today and can’t explain for you. Go ask Baizhang.”
When the monk asked Baizhang, Baizhang said, “At this point, after all, I don’t understand.”
When the monk related this to Mazu, Mazu said, “Zhizang’s head is white; Baizhang’s head is black.”

(Blue Cliff Record, case 73, BDK ed, p 324-325)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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seeker242
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by seeker242 »

Zen is what's right here in front of you. All the rest is just a bunch of ideas. Zen is what's left when ideas are dispensed with.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
FlareStar
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Re: What is zen to you?

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Astus wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:16 pm When the monk related this to Mazu, Mazu said, “Zhizang’s head is white; Baizhang’s head is black.”
What does that mean?
seeker242 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:19 pm Zen is what's right here in front of you. All the rest is just a bunch of ideas. Zen is what's left when ideas are dispensed with.
How do you know you're not looking at an overlay of ideas instead of what's in front of you? I mean, what's the difference between a zen master seeing a tree and a non zen master seeing one?

And is "Zen" not an idea too then?
master of puppets wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:24 pm all the things that you touch are the same
just like the things you hear, taste or smell
how do we know? Because of the emptiness

this is my zen today 13.10.2020
So how do zen masters end up with different answers to the same thing?

And does that then also mean emptiness is the same as non-emptiness?
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:59 pm Image
How so? Seems to me like removing all doubt is the thing what zen masters are doing, or at least are attempting to. So, given the opportunity, where you can remove doubt with certainty, why wouldn't you?
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by master of puppets »

FlareStar wrote:
master of puppets wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:24 pm all the things that you touch are the same
just like the things you hear, taste or smell
how do we know? Because of the emptiness

this is my zen today 13.10.2020
So how do zen masters end up with different answers to the same thing?

And does that then also mean emptiness is the same as non-emptiness?
My laugh never ends.
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Astus
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Re: What is zen to you?

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FlareStar wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:38 pmWhat does that mean?
It is 'apart from all permutations of assertion and denial'.

A monk asked Zhaozhou, “‘The supreme Way has no difficulties— just avoid discrimination.’ As soon as there are words spoken, this is discrimination. So how do you help people?”
Zhaozhou said, “Why don’t you quote this saying in full?”
The monk said, “I only remember up to here.”
Zhaozhou said, “It’s just this: ‘The supreme Way has no difficulties—just avoid discrimination.’”

(Blue Cliff Record, case 59, BDK ed, p 277)

Also:

'Actually, it is not hard to reach enlightenment if you do not grasp or reject. The poem encourages us to practice without attachment. As soon as you become attached to something, you lose the direction of the method.'
(Faith in Mind: A Guide to Ch'an Practice by Sheng Yen, p 99)

Furthermore:

'Negations of being and nonbeing are not expressions of a belief in a substantial, eternal being and in an annihilationist, nihilistic nonbeing. To take being as being leads one to take nonbeing as nonbeing. But to perceive dharmas without attachment to nonbeing is to discern the reality-mark of dharmas: in this manner, though one perceives being, one does so without grasping to marks. Since the dharma-marks thus perceived are markless marks, the mind of the sage is established in that which has no location.'
(Essays of Sengzhao, ch 1, in Three Short Treatises, BDK ed, p 63)

And:

'The faults of mental afflictions that torment
Due to false knowledge do not arise
To those who understand the meaning
Of conceptualizations of real and unreal entities.
If one possesses a locus,
One becomes attached or detached;
But the great beings who’re devoid of locus,
They have neither attachment nor detachment.'

(Sixty Stanzas of Reasoning by Nagarjuna, v 57-58)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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seeker242
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by seeker242 »

FlareStar wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:38 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:16 pm When the monk related this to Mazu, Mazu said, “Zhizang’s head is white; Baizhang’s head is black.”
What does that mean?
Why does it need to mean something other than what it says? It means Zhizang’s head is white and Baizhang’s head is black. Maybe Baizhang was out in the sun a lot and had a really good tan.
How do you know you're not looking at an overlay of ideas instead of what's in front of you?
This is where an actual teacher comes in handy.
I mean, what's the difference between a zen master seeing a tree and a non zen master seeing one?
There's no actual difference.
And is "Zen" not an idea too then?
Yes, it certainly is. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by Genjo Conan »

FlareStar wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:59 pm Bonus question: How would you answer Nansen asking for a word of zen?
What Zen is to me: kindness.
re Nanquan: same answer.
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by narhwal90 »

FlareStar wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:38 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:59 pm Image
How so? Seems to me like removing all doubt is the thing what zen masters are doing, or at least are attempting to. So, given the opportunity, where you can remove doubt with certainty, why wouldn't you?
Waving minds have certainty. One hand has the cat's head, the other has the body.
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Re: What is zen to you?

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narhwal90 wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:27 am
Waving minds have certainty. One hand has the cat's head, the other has the body.
I've never seen a zen master struggling with certainty. They seem pretty straightforward and clear to me. "The dharma is..." "If you wish to understand..." etc etc. Joshu had "no tongue", which I don't think comes from lack of certainty. I think there's even a master who talks about how you just need to stop shilly-shallying. I can look for the quote if you want.
seeker242 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:12 pm
Why does it need to mean something other than what it says? It means Zhizang’s head is white and Baizhang’s head is black. Maybe Baizhang was out in the sun a lot and had a really good tan.
This is where an actual teacher comes in handy.

If you can't answer the questions, why are you attempting to? That's just misleading people...

If you don't know, I rather have you say: I don't know, I don't understand what the masters were talking about.

Then at least you're being honest.
seeker242 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:12 pm
I mean, what's the difference between a zen master seeing a tree and a non zen master seeing one?
There's no actual difference.
And is "Zen" not an idea too then?
Yes, it certainly is. :smile:
Am I supposed to just blindly accept these answers when you don't understand what you are talking about? Can you even see how this might be problematic?
Astus wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:33 pm
FlareStar wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:38 pmWhat does that mean?
It is 'apart from all permutations of assertion and denial'.
How does that relate to black and white? Where is the connection? I see a headache and a lack of understanding being asserted in the case. How would you reconcile that with "apart from assertion and denial"?
Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:58 pm
FlareStar wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:59 pm Bonus question: How would you answer Nansen asking for a word of zen?
What Zen is to me: kindness.
re Nanquan: same answer.
Where was there kindness in the cutting of the cat?
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Re: What is zen to you?

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FlareStar wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:56 am
If you can't answer the questions, why are you attempting to? That's just misleading people...
Why are you even asking the questions? Do you actually want to know or do you just want to play internet dharma combat, which is a fools game? Seem to me it's just the latter.
Am I supposed to just blindly accept these answers when you don't understand what you are talking about? Can you even see how this might be problematic?
Can you see how asking questions, with the intent to just "zen one up people", might be problematic?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by Astus »

FlareStar wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:56 amHow does that relate to black and white? Where is the connection? I see a headache and a lack of understanding being asserted in the case. How would you reconcile that with "apart from assertion and denial"?
Where is assertion and denial in black and white? Is black a yes and white a no, or the other way around? No matter what, things are as they are, so no need to complicate them. To put it in simpler terms,

'Where your mind stops for a moment, this is called the bodhi tree, [the site of enlightenment]. Your mind being unable to stop is called the tree of ignorance. There is nowhere that ignorance abides; it has no beginning and no end. If from moment to moment your mind cannot stop [its deluded stream of consciousness], then you climb the tree of ignorance. Then you enter among the various kinds of beings in the six planes of existence to wear fur on your body and horns on your head. If you can manage to stop, this is the body and realm of purity. If you are unborn for a moment, then you climb the tree of enlightenment.'
(The Recorded Sayings of Linji, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 34-35)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by Genjo Conan »

FlareStar wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:56 am
Genjo Conan wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:58 pm
FlareStar wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:59 pm Bonus question: How would you answer Nansen asking for a word of zen?
What Zen is to me: kindness.
re Nanquan: same answer.
Where was there kindness in the cutting of the cat?
Ask Nanquan.
FlareStar
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Re: What is zen to you?

Post by FlareStar »

Bodhidharma said:

Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.
From Case 162 of Dahui's Treasury of the Eye of the True Teaching

If you do not understand the great principle, even if you pass through Buddha’s belly you’re just a walking piece of crap. Never having met a good person, you readily accept the scenery at the doors of the six senses, spouting clichés as if they were mysterious words and marvelous sayings, colorful and fresh, without having any attainment of your own—it’s just the snivel and drool of other people.
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