Can a lazy person awaken?

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clyde
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Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by clyde »

I was reading in the Bloodstream Sermon from The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine,
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn’t run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don’t see their nature and think reading sutras, invoking buddhas, studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down, or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma.
So, can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pm I was reading in the Bloodstream Sermon from The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine,
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn’t run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don’t see their nature and think reading sutras, invoking buddhas, studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down, or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma.
So, can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
..............................................yes..............................................................................yes..............................................................................yes...................................Eventually.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pm I was reading in the Bloodstream Sermon from The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine,
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn’t run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don’t see their nature and think reading sutras, invoking buddhas, studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down, or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma.
So, can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
I mean sure, a lazy person can. The thing with this kind of path though is that it is essentially yogic - and yes that includes Zen in my opinion. Traditionally you are supposed to have a relationship with a teacher or teachers who points out the true nature to you directly, if that's not that there then it hardly matters if you study or not.

If we want to go directly without all the tradition, trappings and institutionalism (a laudable goal), we have to have guidance and some sense of surety in our practice.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by clyde »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:51 am The thing with this kind of path though is that it is essentially yogic - and yes that includes Zen in my opinion.
What does that mean?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

clyde wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:16 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:51 am The thing with this kind of path though is that it is essentially yogic - and yes that includes Zen in my opinion.
What does that mean?
I just explained it. A path not predicated on gradualism and structured study needs a direct guide. Otherwise, one is doing something like reading the Bloodstream Sermon as if just reading about it is the experience - exactly like the structured religionists, taking truth from a book.

Pretty sure Bodhidharma wouldn't have been down with that.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by clyde »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:22 am I just explained it.
I’m sorry for being dull-witted; I think I was confused by the term “yogic”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Ted Biringer »

Thanks Clyde,
clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pm I was reading in the Bloodstream Sermon from The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine,
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn’t run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don’t see their nature and think reading sutras, invoking buddhas, studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down, or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma.
Bodhidharma says, "a buddha is an idle person…” A Buddha is someone that is already awake – someone who sees his/her nature. His point is that seeing your nature is what ultimately matters – if you don’t see your nature it doesn’t matter what else you do, e.g. study, practice, etc. As Bodhidharma also says:

Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.
~Trans. Red Pine
clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pm So, can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
One thing is sure, if you keep on like this you will find out one way or another.
Peace,
Ted
Last edited by Ted Biringer on Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

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clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pmcan a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
There are stupid lazy and smart lazy. Stupid lazy is not actually lazy, it's is simply following the ingrained habitual inclinations without giving it a single thought, being lost in samsara and suffering. Smart lazy is what Zen is, being free from hope and worry.

'as to buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do—defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.'
(Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 11-12)

'I neither desire heavenly realms,
Nor want blessings in this world.
When hungry, eat;
Tired, sleep.
Fools laugh at me,
But the wise know its wisdom.
It’s not being stupid –
It’s what we originally are.'

(Enjoying the Way by Nanyue Mingzan, aka Lazy Zan)

'You get up in the morning, dress, wash your face, and so on; you call these miscellaneous thoughts, but all that is necessary is that there be no perceiver or perceived when you perceive—no hearer or heard when you hear, no thinker or thought when you think. Buddhism is very easy and very economical; it spares effort, but you yourself waste energy and make your own hardships.'
(Foyan Qingyuan, in Instant Zen, p 70)

'An ancient sage said, “Every phenomenon is the original reality.” Fine. Yunmen held up his cane and said, “This is not the original reality.” After a pause, he said, “If so, then the three poisons, four perversions, five clusters, six senses, twelve media, eighteen elements, and twenty-five realms of being are not the original reality.” Why not understand in this way—you’d save quite a bit of effort.
Buddhism is a most economical affair, conserving the most energy—it has always been present, but you do not understand.
I tell you, moreover, that there is nothing that is true and nothing that is not true. How can there be truth and untruth in one thing? Just because of seeking unceasingly, everywhere is seeking; pondering principles is seeking, contemplating the model cases of the ancients is also seeking, reading Zen books is also seeking; even if you sit quietly, continuously from moment to moment, this too is seeking.
Do you want to understand? Then that seeking of yours is actually not seeking. This is extremely difficult to believe and to penetrate, hard to work on. Those of you who are not comfortable are that way, generally speaking, because you are either oblivious or excited. That is why you say you do not understand.
Right now, how can you avoid being oblivious or excited? When that very thought of yours arises, it is the flowing whirl of birth and death: do you consider it habit-activated consciousness, or do you consider it immutable? Contemplate in this way over and over again, and you will have a bit of guiding principle.'

(Foyan Qingyuan, in Instant Zen, p 80-81)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Red Pine occasionally shows up on this forum. You might search here and ask him.

The Zen Teaching if Bodhidharma is one of my favorite books. I’ve read it over many times.
I think the point Bodhidharma is making is that the nature of mind isn’t dependent on conditions, and it isn’t hiding anywhere. Everything we need is right here in front of our noses, and engaging in all sorts of busy activities, burning incense, memorizing and chanting sutras, intellectualizing everything on and on and on and on, it may bring us closer to MIND but it doesn’t bring MIND any closer to us, because mind isn’t anywhere else but right her to begin with. But then, this is totally Bodhidharma’s method, his thing, his Dharma.
To him, it’s like, we panic and say, “where’s my nose? I can’t see my nose!” And then build a factory to produce mirrors, and opening up a store to sell mirrors, and then going in and buying a mirror, and then, “Ah there’s my nose!”
And his point is always that you don’t have to do any of that. You just put your finger on your face and there’s your nose, where it always was.
At the same time, because of our habitual necessity to always complicate things, we don’t just see our mind. We can’t find what’s right there in the middle of our faces.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that you all of a sudden stop reading and studying and practicing various Dharma methods of whatever tradition you follow, but at some point, just as an apple gradually ripens for months on the branch of a tree and then suddenly drops, at some point you just have to quit holding on even to all your Buddhist baggage, just let it all go and see your mind directly.

He uses the idea of “being lazy” to invoke the idea of not holding on to busy activity (actions of body, speech and mind), not even Buddhist rituals or other activities.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Genjo Conan »

As several of the comments have written, I'm not certain that "lazy" here carries the same meaning that we usually give it.

Certainly at least some of the ancestors wrote that effort--maybe a great deal of effort--is required to achieve liberation. In the Fukanzazengi, Dogen writes that
intelligence or lack of it does not matter, between the dull and the sharp-witted there is no distinction. If you concentrate your effort single-mindedly, that in itself is negotiating the Way.
In the commentary to Zhaozhou's Dog, Wumen tells us to
Arouse your entire body with its three hundred and sixty bones and joints and its eighty-four thousand pores of the skin; summon up a spirit of great doubt and concentrate on this word 'Mu.' Carry it continuously day and night.
In our time, Shunryu Suzuki said:
Dogen Zenji was enlightened when he heard his master strike and say to the disciple sitting next to Dogen, "What are you doing? You have to make a hard effort. What are you doing?" That effort is Zen. That effort is to observe the precepts. If we make our best effort on each moment with confidence, that is enlightenment. . . . Whatever you do with your best effort, enlightenment follows. This is very important for our Zen practice and for our everyday life. We should make our best effort in our everyday life as well as in practice of Zen.
There are other examples. Virya is one of the Paramitas. Hakuin rails against his contemporaries who were unwilling to put in the time. Etc. Etc.

And yet I don't think work itself is a virtue. Busy-ness can cut us off from awareness. I've certainly spent periods of Zazen so focused on Doing Zazen Right that in the end I'm not sure what I was actually doing.

So I think Bodhidharma's "lazy" here means something like "not adding anything extra," or "not making it more than it needs to be." And I think that "not adding anything extra" is very difficult; I think it takes effort for us to be able to let go of effort.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

:good:

I think it also points to simply not being neurotic, as much as that's possible for us. A relaxed mind is a prerequisite.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by avatamsaka3 »

Can a lazy person awaken?
I hope so. Otherwise, I'll remain in samsara!

In the next sentence, the teaching explains that the goal of practice is to see one's nature. Making effort to see one's nature is the goal, not making effort to do other things.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by clyde »

According to Bankei,
Generally speaking, Zen teachers nowadays instruct people by setting up rules or using devices. Believing that without devices they can't manage, behaving as if without them it's impossible to instruct anyone, they're unable to teach by simply pointing things out directly. To teach people [this way], unable to manage without devices, is 'devices Zen.'

"Others tell students pursuing this teaching that it's no good unless they rouse a great ball of doubt and succeed in breaking through it. 'No matter what,' they tell them, 'you've got to rouse a ball of doubt!' They don't teach, 'Abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind!' [but instead] cause people without any ball of doubt to saddle themselves with one, making them exchange the Buddha Mind for a ball of doubt. A mistaken business, isn't it!
And there’s hope for a lazy and stupid person (like me),
I tell my students and those of you coming regularly here to the temple: 'Be stupid!' Because you've got the dynamic function of the marvelously illuminating Buddha Mind, even if you get rid of discriminative understanding, you won't be foolish. So, all of you, from here on, be stupid! Even if you're stupid, when you're hungry, you'll ask for something to eat, when you're thirsty, you'll ask for some tea; when it gets warm, you'll put on thin, light clothes, and when it's cold, you'll put on more clothes. As far as your activities of today are concerned, you're not lacking a thing!
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by avatamsaka3 »

And there’s hope for a lazy and stupid person (like me),
You don't seem stupid at all.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by confusedlayman »

clyde wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:21 pm I was reading in the Bloodstream Sermon from The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine,
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn’t run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don’t see their nature and think reading sutras, invoking buddhas, studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down, or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma.
So, can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?
laziness is obstacle to enlightment
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PadmaVonSamba and Genji Conan have good postings!

You know, I don’t think “idle” means lazy... There is a phrase that has been sitting in my thoughts for years. Master Sheng Yen used to say that to practice zen is to be like a 無事賢道人 wushi xian daoren. Wu shi means having nothing to do... much like the tibetan refrain of “let go of your worldly activities.”

At Dharma Drum, I got the sense that wushi is feeling that there is nothing in particular one needs to do. Nothing to learn, nothing to achieve, nothing to fill up one’s schedule with... to not be busy. It means one’s mind is not busy or preoccupied. You can be in retreat, but the mind may still be busy with many thoughts. Distraction in chinese is 分心 Tenzin, which means a split mind. Without a split mind, one naturally resides in one mind... or even no mind.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think that “idle” would mean lazy in the context of zen. In zen, one is always practicing, every moment is practice.

I’m not positive on this, but I also seem to remember wushi being equating with the stage of no more learning, ie. a fully awakened Buddha. Someone who has achieved the goal and no longer needs to put effort into their practice. Nothing to do... nowhere to go...

But zen is funny. They say you should practice like such a sage. You put in effort to practice no-effort, and one day no-effort will be perfectly natural.

Another colloquial usage of the word wushi means to have no problems. Master Sheng Yen also uses it like this, where having problems is synonymous with the afflictions. Without afflictions, there are no problems.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:45 pmYou know, I don’t think “idle” means lazy... There is a phrase that has been sitting in my thoughts for years. Master Sheng Yen used to say that to practice zen is to be like a 無事賢道人 wushi xian daoren. Wu shi means having nothing to do... much like the tibetan refrain of “let go of your worldly activities.”
The Record of Linji by Ruth Fuller Sasaki, p 159 wrote:One who has nothing to do 無事人 is a term used to describe the fully enlightened person. Linji says, “Buddhas and patriarchs are people with nothing to do”. The expression may have originated with Baizhang Huaihai, who states:
Just he for whom at present, as regards each and every external circumstance, there is no delusion, no disturbance, no anger, and no joy; and, as regards the gates of his own six sense organs, has wiped and settled them so that they are clean, this is the one who is without anything to do. (X 68: 12c)
This expression was used by both Guishan Lingyou and Huangbo Xiyun, the two great disciples of Baizhang. Guishan says:
One who is like the clear stillness of autumn water, pure, motionless, tranquil, and unobstructed—such a one is called a person of the Way, also a person who has nothing to do. (T 47: 577b–c)
Huangbo writes:
One whose outer and inner feelings are completely extinguished and who clings to nothing, such is the one who has nothing to do. (T 48: 382c)
[Huangbo] said, ‘The hundred-odd kinds of knowledge do not compare with nonseeking. This is the ultimate. The person of the Way is the one who has nothing to do, who has no mind at all and no doctrine to preach. Having nothing to do, such a person lives at ease. (T 48: 383b)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by Genjo Conan »

clyde wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:42 pm According to Bankei,
I have to admit, I've never gotten much out of Bankei. While I'm sure that he was a wonderful and inspiring teacher in person, every time I've tried to read his sermons it's like "great, abide in the Unborn...now what?"

I think it's also worth noting that Bankei had his awakening only after years of hard ascetic practice. I appreciate that he always denied that such practice was necessary or even advisable, but still... I'm not aware of any of Bankei's students going on to be well-known teachers, or any modern students successfully putting his teaching into practice. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of modern Zen practitioners attaining at least some fruits of the Way...but only with some effort.
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Astus wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:10 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:45 pmYou know, I don’t think “idle” means lazy... There is a phrase that has been sitting in my thoughts for years. Master Sheng Yen used to say that to practice zen is to be like a 無事賢道人 wushi xian daoren. Wu shi means having nothing to do... much like the tibetan refrain of “let go of your worldly activities.”
The Record of Linji by Ruth Fuller Sasaki, p 159 wrote:One who has nothing to do 無事人 is a term used to describe the fully enlightened person. Linji says, “Buddhas and patriarchs are people with nothing to do”. The expression may have originated with Baizhang Huaihai, who states:
Just he for whom at present, as regards each and every external circumstance, there is no delusion, no disturbance, no anger, and no joy; and, as regards the gates of his own six sense organs, has wiped and settled them so that they are clean, this is the one who is without anything to do. (X 68: 12c)
This expression was used by both Guishan Lingyou and Huangbo Xiyun, the two great disciples of Baizhang. Guishan says:
One who is like the clear stillness of autumn water, pure, motionless, tranquil, and unobstructed—such a one is called a person of the Way, also a person who has nothing to do. (T 47: 577b–c)
Huangbo writes:
One whose outer and inner feelings are completely extinguished and who clings to nothing, such is the one who has nothing to do. (T 48: 382c)
[Huangbo] said, ‘The hundred-odd kinds of knowledge do not compare with nonseeking. This is the ultimate. The person of the Way is the one who has nothing to do, who has no mind at all and no doctrine to preach. Having nothing to do, such a person lives at ease. (T 48: 383b)
:anjali: Thank you 🙏
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Re: Can a lazy person awaken?

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

I think it helps to drive yourself crazy trying....
Then you give up
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