Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:35 amI think there are texts and there is reality on the ground.
Texts are not apart from the reality on the ground, but one aspect of it. Such texts, teachings, views, etc. influence and define what and how people think of Zen and Zen teachers, and that in turn conditions expectations and behaviours. For instance, right when looking up from whom to learn Zen, one of the first things one is advised to check are lineage credentials, so on almost every website and every book of a Zen teacher/community has a section dedicated to lineage as proof of authenticity. There is no special consideration given to the specific views of the teacher, nor to what ordination was received, or any other aspects.
The reality on the ground is that one has to look long and hard to find a fully-awakened master in any school. And whether Zen, Vajrayana or any other lineage, there are many sincere and dedicated teachers who are able to assist the students with their practice to some extent.
However, unlike in Zen, teachers elsewhere are not required or presumed to be awakened (except tulkus). For a Zen teacher to say that s/he is an ordinary being who simply passes on whatever s/he learnt from others, that goes against the very definition of transmitting the mind and not the scriptures.
One thing is clear to me though, we can wring our hands about the absence of enlightened 0teachers, degeneration of the Dharma, etc, or we can practice and realise that that is indeed the best and only way to address these concerns.
Does that practice require an enlightened teacher or not? If it does, then it is a problem not to find such a teacher.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:33 am
Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:35 amI think there are texts and there is reality on the ground.
Texts are not apart from the reality on the ground, but one aspect of it. Such texts, teachings, views, etc. influence and define what and how people think of Zen and Zen teachers, and that in turn conditions expectations and behaviours. For instance, right when looking up from whom to learn Zen, one of the first things one is advised to check are lineage credentials, so on almost every website and every book of a Zen teacher/community has a section dedicated to lineage as proof of authenticity. There is no special consideration given to the specific views of the teacher, nor to what ordination was received, or any other aspects.
Texts also bemoan the scarcity of realised teachers, at times. And lineage is surely an indication at least, if not a guarantee. Do you have a better system in mind?
Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:33 am
The reality on the ground is that one has to look long and hard to find a fully-awakened master in any school. And whether Zen, Vajrayana or any other lineage, there are many sincere and dedicated teachers who are able to assist the students with their practice to some extent.
However, unlike in Zen, teachers elsewhere are not required or presumed to be awakened (except tulkus). For a Zen teacher to say that s/he is an ordinary being who simply passes on whatever s/he learnt from others, that goes against the very definition of transmitting the mind and not the scriptures.
I have not yet met a Zen teacher who claimed to be fully enlightened, free of all obscurations. I think the claim that a teacher needs to be fully enlightened in order to transmit is false. But yes, a teacher can only transmit what he or she has. For instance, a teacher can guide students towards kensho and post-kensho practices. But at a certain stage may not be able to guide a student further. The student then goes and looks for another teacher. This happened throughout Zen's history.
Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:33 am
One thing is clear to me though, we can wring our hands about the absence of enlightened 0teachers, degeneration of the Dharma, etc, or we can practice and realise that that is indeed the best and only way to address these concerns.
Does that practice require an enlightened teacher or not? If it does, then it is a problem not to find such a teacher.
Enlightened or not enlightened? Is that the only dichotomy in your mind?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:59 amTexts also bemoan the scarcity of realised teachers, at times. And lineage is surely an indication at least, if not a guarantee. Do you have a better system in mind?
The lineage system is not a commonly used way in education, not even in Buddhism. Just consider how both mundane (engineers, scientists, scholars, craftsmen, etc.) and religious (theologians, priests, monks, cantors, etc.) experts are trained within institutional environments, and what quality assurance (supervision) means in various professions.
I have not yet met a Zen teacher who claimed to be fully enlightened, free of all obscurations. I think the claim that a teacher needs to be fully enlightened in order to transmit is false.
Do you have a specific view regarding the traditional lineage history that goes back to Shakyamuni? Is it not a transmission where the mind of the student and the mind of the teacher agree (see a definition here: seal of the buddha-mind)?
Enlightened or not enlightened? Is that the only dichotomy in your mind?
The question of the topic is about whether Zen teachers are awakened. According to the usual definition of what makes a Zen teacher (dharma transmission), and what transmission refers to (dharma lamp), they necessarily are. Do you know of a different criteria?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:18 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:59 amTexts also bemoan the scarcity of realised teachers, at times. And lineage is surely an indication at least, if not a guarantee. Do you have a better system in mind?
The lineage system is not a commonly used way in education, not even in Buddhism. Just consider how both mundane (engineers, scientists, scholars, craftsmen, etc.) and religious (theologians, priests, monks, cantors, etc.) experts are trained within institutional environments, and what quality assurance (supervision) means in various professions.
Studying under a teacher from a particular lineage is akin to studying in a particular institutional environment.

If one completes a doctorate, then the supervisor is a significant factor. In maths when one talks about young researchers, one hears a lot of things like 'he was a student of....". So there is a lineage and in fact a maths genealogy website and for instance I know that I am Hilbert's great-great-great-great-grandson (through Hecke-Maak-Jacobs-etc). https://www.mathgenealogy.org/id.php?id=7298

More relevant still are the apprenticed arts and crafts. The point is that Zen training is predicated on a personal relationship.
Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:18 pm
I have not yet met a Zen teacher who claimed to be fully enlightened, free of all obscurations. I think the claim that a teacher needs to be fully enlightened in order to transmit is false.
Do you have a specific view regarding the traditional lineage history that goes back to Shakyamuni? Is it not a transmission where the mind of the student and the mind of the teacher agree (see a definition here: seal of the buddha-mind)?
My rather prosaic view is that as it always happens with human beings, many get a little, very few get a lot and some don't get anything.

Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:18 pm
Enlightened or not enlightened? Is that the only dichotomy in your mind?
The question of the topic is about whether Zen teachers are awakened. According to the usual definition of what makes a Zen teacher (dharma transmission), and what transmission refers to (dharma lamp), they necessarily are. Do you know of a different criteria?
I think I gave mine in my previous post. People's mileage may differ.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:18 am
they still insist on first gaining sudden awakening to buddha-mind.
And sudden awakening to buddha-mind is something different from actually becoming a 100% perfect Buddha.
As you can see above, there actually is a view that even a bodhisattva on the highest stage is not good enough.
None of the quotes you quoted above actually say that a very learned person cannot relay the Buddha's teaching in a satisfactory manner. All they say is that a bodhisattva on the highest stage is not good enough to be a Buddha. That much is already obvious given the very definition of Buddha to begin with. But of course, you obviously personally interpret it differently and obviously I don't interpret it that way.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:02 pmIf one completes a doctorate, then the supervisor is a significant factor. In maths when one talks about young researchers, one hears a lot of things like 'he was a student of....". So there is a lineage
There are a number of crucial differences between saying that one has studied under this and that teacher, and that there is a unique lineage of special transmission independent of scriptures. Naturally, every Buddhist is a descendent of the Buddha in a way. It is still the norm that monastics in China and Vietnam receive Shi/Thích 釋 (i.e. Shakya) as their family name. But in Zen only select people are called descendants, and it was meant to distinguish that person from all the other Buddhists (until practically everyone got to be a Chan descendant, like in China).
So it's rather like as if among all the maths PhD's some started to claim a unique expertise in mathematics because they studied under someone who studied from a disciple of an allegedly super talented, but generally unknown and already deceased professor, and because of that they now teach maths independent of numbers and logic, therefore it is not something one could learn anywhere else. And if you think this is an exaggeration, look at what Sheng-yen had to say about the matter (Hoofprint of the Ox by Sheng-yen, p 112):
''Where the doctrinal schools (jiao) locate authoritative tradition in the transmission of the Buddhist scriptures, the Chan school looks to a "mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself. Known variously as the "transmission of the lamp or flame" or the "transmission of the treasury of the true eye of the Dharma," Chan claims to be heir to a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind that runs parallel to his spoken word-Dharma.'
The point is that Zen training is predicated on a personal relationship.
As you noted, even mathematics and arts are so, therefore it is nothing new or unique about Zen, especially if you keep in mind that Zen existed primarily within a monastic environment. However, whether one actually receives a doctorate is not the decision of one person, and it is not actually received from a single individual but an institution. Furthermore, the validity of one's calculations does not depend on whether one is a student of a specific teacher.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:33 pmAnd sudden awakening to buddha-mind is something different from actually becoming a 100% perfect Buddha.
There is such an interpretation by those who talk of "sudden awakening, gradual practice".
None of the quotes you quoted above actually say that a very learned person cannot relay the Buddha's teaching in a satisfactory manner.
That would be a teaching according to the usual manner, relying on the scriptures, following a gradual path. That is what Zen teachers wanted to distinguish themselves from.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:03 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:02 pmIf one completes a doctorate, then the supervisor is a significant factor. In maths when one talks about young researchers, one hears a lot of things like 'he was a student of....". So there is a lineage
There are a number of crucial differences between saying that one has studied under this and that teacher, and that there is a unique lineage of special transmission independent of scriptures. Naturally, every Buddhist is a descendent of the Buddha in a way. It is still the norm that monastics in China and Vietnam receive Shi/Thích 釋 (i.e. Shakya) as their family name. But in Zen only select people are called descendants, and it was meant to distinguish that person from all the other Buddhists (until practically everyone got to be a Chan descendant, like in China).
So it's rather like as if among all the maths PhD's some started to claim a unique expertise in mathematics because they studied under someone who studied from a disciple of an allegedly super talented, but generally unknown and already deceased professor, and because of that they now teach maths independent of numbers and logic, therefore it is not something one could learn anywhere else. And if you think this is an exaggeration, look at what Sheng-yen had to say about the matter (Hoofprint of the Ox by Sheng-yen, p 112):
''Where the doctrinal schools (jiao) locate authoritative tradition in the transmission of the Buddhist scriptures, the Chan school looks to a "mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself. Known variously as the "transmission of the lamp or flame" or the "transmission of the treasury of the true eye of the Dharma," Chan claims to be heir to a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind that runs parallel to his spoken word-Dharma.'
The point is that Zen training is predicated on a personal relationship.
As you noted, even mathematics and arts are so, therefore it is nothing new or unique about Zen, especially if you keep in mind that Zen existed primarily within a monastic environment. However, whether one actually receives a doctorate is not the decision of one person, and it is not actually received from a single individual but an institution. Furthermore, the validity of one's calculations does not depend on whether one is a student of a specific teacher.
In maths, it is not 'the validity of a calculation' that we are talking about, but whether one is a capable researcher. In Zen it's whether one truly received the transmission.

It sounds to me that you are putting in doubt the entire teacher-to-disciple transmission. Can it happen outside the teacher to disciple relationship? I think so, but very rarely. You are much more of a scholar than me, wasn't Chinul like that? And Huineng as well, the first breakthrough?

Of course this could be the exceptions that prove the rule sort of thing - very rare cases indeed.

If you are out to say that the entire teacher-student relationship is hyped up, well, come out and say so. Perhaps Secular Buddhism is more your thing. That's fine. Horses for courses. For my part I've really appreciated teachers' inputs and will continue to seek it when appropriate. I am also not a regular Zen student, so everything we are saying here has very limited relevance to the tradition as it is being lived.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:18 am
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pmYes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.
If the transmission were of something less than the buddha-mind, then it'd be a gradual path, something that Zen teachers distanced themselves from right at the start, and only kept strengthening that position over the centuries.
That’s good.

Baizhang Huaihai explained it this way:

'Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 31)

'Only a Buddha alone is a great teacher, because there is no second person; the rest are all called outsiders, also called demons talking.'
(p 37)

'From the first to the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood they are still disciples - right now as long as they have any seeking mind at all, they’re all called immoral monks, nominal saints; they’re all called jackals. Clearly they can’t digest the offerings of others.'
(p 57)

'Even people in the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood cannot get rid of this completely, and flow into the river of birth and death.'
(p 58)

'The first, second, third, and fourth stages have the affliction of clear understanding; the fifth, sixth, and seventh stages have the affliction of various kinds of knowledge, the eighth, ninth, and tenth stages have the afflictions of bodhisattvas simultaneously illumining both realities, on up to the affliction of cultivating the fruit of Buddhahood and its innumerable practices - you only care for knowledge and understanding of meanings and expressions, and don’t realize that instead these are binding afflictions.'
(p 68)

And Huangbo:

'Even if you attain the three [stages of] sagehood and the four fruits [of the Hinayana] and complete the ten stages [of the bodhisattva], you will still remain within [the domain of] ordinary and sagely.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 38)

Linji went even further:

'Followers of the Way, if you take my viewpoint you’ll cut off the heads of the saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya buddhas; a bodhisattva who has attained the completed mind of the tenth stage will be like a mere hireling; a bodhisattva of equivalent enlightenment or a bodhisattva of marvelous enlightenment will be like pilloried prisoners; an arhat and a pratyekabuddha will be like privy fi lth; bodhi and nirvana will be like hitching posts for asses. Why is this so? Followers of the Way, it is only because you haven’t yet realized the emptiness of the three asamkhyeya kalpas that you have such obstacles.'
(Record of Linji, p 10, tr Sasaki)

'Followers of the Way, don’t take the Buddha to be the ultimate. As I see it, he is just like a privy hole. Both bodhisattvahood and arhatship are cangues and chains that bind one. Th is is why Mañjuśrī tried to kill Gautama with his sword, and why Aṅgulimāla attempted to slay Śākyamuni with his dagger.'
(p 31)

But that's all Hongzhou school interpretation. For something closer to the gradual perspective there are the teachings of Zongmi, Yanshou, and Jinul, although they still insist on first gaining sudden awakening to buddha-mind.
There is nothing there that dictates that 8th/9th bhumi, etc, etc. would not have that necessary knowledge to do all of the above.
As you can see above, there actually is a view that even a bodhisattva on the highest stage is not good enough.
I disagree not with the text but actual complete Buddha has been not testified to be reached by Chan in modern age. My understanding is great emptiness is hard to reach in the first place: this samadhi is considered Buddha. However, how is sambhogakaya obtained? What does a complete Buddha do to help sentient beings? One’s assumption can easily falls to Sravakayana path.
Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:35 am I think there are texts and there is reality on the ground.

The reality on the ground is that one has to look long and hard to find a fully-awakened master in any school. And whether Zen, Vajrayana or any other lineage, there are many sincere and dedicated teachers who are able to assist the students with their practice to some extent.

This is how it's always been. Whether in the past it was better, I cannot say. But other people are certain these are degenerate time, the Kali Yuga, etc. :shrug:

One thing is clear to me though, we can wring our hands about the absence of enlightened teachers, degeneration of the Dharma, etc, or we can practice and realise that that is indeed the best and only way to address these concerns.

_/|\_
I agree most people have received initial teaching with a teacher and then little contact. The full confidence needs to be affirmed by individuals at this point. There are monks who have accumulated more than enough merit, yet hasn’t been absorbed into great samadhi. There is something missing.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:47 pm
That would be a teaching according to the usual manner, relying on the scriptures,
I don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:59 am
I have not yet met a Zen teacher who claimed to be fully enlightened, free of all obscurations. I think the claim that a teacher needs to be fully enlightened in order to transmit is false. But yes, a teacher can only transmit what he or she has. For instance, a teacher can guide students towards kensho and post-kensho practices. But at a certain stage may not be able to guide a student further. The student then goes and looks for another teacher. This happened throughout Zen's history.
The issue is students cannot discern their teachers due to limited exposure?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:04 pmIn Zen it's whether one truly received the transmission.
But what is the nature of transmission? Usually it is understood as a certification of the attainment of a disciple. It does not mean the whole process of receiving teachings.
It sounds to me that you are putting in doubt the entire teacher-to-disciple transmission.
What is called Dharma transmission is not teaching someone how to meditation or how to follow the precepts, but the acknowledgement that one has attained the same level of awakening as the one who gives the transmission (see definitions give here).
Can it happen outside the teacher to disciple relationship?
In various ways. If we take the aspect of historical lineage, then the answer is remote succession (yaosi 遙嗣), where one person claims inheritance from someone who is already dead. A modern example for that is how Xuyun transmitted the lineages of the three lost schools of Chan and thus Xuanhua became the ninth ancestor of the Guiyang line. If we take the awakening aspect, then anyone ever awakened could be said to have received the mind seal of the buddhas.
wasn't Chinul like that? And Huineng as well, the first breakthrough?
If what you refer to is whether someone can awaken without extended training under a single teacher, then yes, there are many examples from that starting with the agamas/nikayas where a monk asked for a brief instruction from the Buddha, then went away, meditated, and attained liberation. Jinul is an example of a super influential teacher within Zen who is not a lineage member. Hanshan Deqing is another such person. Two recent reformers, Hakuin in Japan and Gyeongheo in Korea, are also like that, as they have never received certification by anyone, but they are currently the sole sources of all Rinzai and Imje lineages in their respective countries. However, those latter two were quickly put in a lineage by their disciples.
If you are out to say that the entire teacher-student relationship is hyped up, well, come out and say so.
Dharma transmission generally means certification. It does not mean the whole process of learning. I do not say that studying under a teacher is unimportant, nor is that the topic.
Perhaps Secular Buddhism is more your thing.
Unlikely.
For my part I've really appreciated teachers' inputs and will continue to seek it when appropriate.
And so have I.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmI don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.
The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master all teachings, and attain omniscience, but has not yet done so. Without omniscience why wouldn't one need to rely on the buddhas' teachings?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmI don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.
The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master all teachings, and attain omniscience, but has not yet done so. Without omniscience why wouldn't one need to rely on the buddhas' teachings?
Master all teachings...but this is based on wisdom, I think, not particularly rigid views of our understanding of sutras. Which means new teachings arise in conjunction with sentient beings’ capacities. ‘Buddha does nothing’ I greatly protest with this view because it’s really is a Sravakayana view. Omniscience cannot be reached based on that view. Buddha is infinite and unmeasurable, and this attitude makes a Buddha, and for newly enlightened beings his work and training is considered Bodhisattva but it’s still the actual work of Buddhas.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Keep in mind ‘congruence’ is very foreign to the two or second vehicle. They cannot transcend individual (not to say there isn’t individual), and this can be quickly understood when referencing Mahaprajnaparamita Sutras, platform sutras, heart Sutra, etc.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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People try too hard to blur the line between fruit of Arahant and absolute emptiness-absolute non-self (unless one chooses to stop after transcending to it), to avoid sectarian I guess. It’s very clear Mahaprajnaparamitas Sutras are not part of Arahant teaching. Mahaprajna transcends all duality (consciousness) that’s why it’s called such.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by seeker242 »

Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmI don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.
The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master all teachings, and attain omniscience, but has not yet done so. Without omniscience why wouldn't one need to rely on the buddhas' teachings?
Because they understand it well enough without having to continue reading books about it
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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LastLegend
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by LastLegend »

Where do people see that an Arahant has vows? If he does, he is considered a Bodhisattva. Only in Mahayana, we see Ancient Buddhas such Samantabhadra, Avalokitesvara, Amitabha, Medicine Buddha, etc have vows! Why doesn’t Shakyamuni Buddha have any vows? Why are there so many Shakyamuni around Mahavairocana? It’s really amazing that people still see an Arahant is equivalent to a Buddha.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by LastLegend »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:49 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:18 pmI don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.
The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master all teachings, and attain omniscience, but has not yet done so. Without omniscience why wouldn't one need to rely on the buddhas' teachings?
Master all teachings...but this is based on wisdom, I think, not particularly rigid views of our understanding of sutras. Which means new teachings arise in conjunction with sentient beings’ capacities. ‘Buddha does nothing’ I greatly protest with this view because it’s really is a Sravakayana view. Omniscience cannot be reached based on that view. Buddha is infinite and unmeasurable, and this attitude makes a Buddha, and for newly enlightened beings his work and training is considered Bodhisattva but it’s still the actual work of Buddhas.
Suffering comes aspirations, not omniscience. False assumption.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Astus »

seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:47 pmBecause they understand it well enough without having to continue reading books about it
Do you mean that everything there is to know to attain buddhahood is found in buddha-mind, and a Zen teacher knows buddha-mind "well enough" to no longer need to study the Buddha's teachings?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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