Dan74 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:04 pmIn Zen it's whether one truly received the transmission.
But what is the nature of transmission? Usually it is understood as a certification of the attainment of a disciple. It does not mean the whole process of receiving teachings.
It sounds to me that you are putting in doubt the entire teacher-to-disciple transmission.
What is called Dharma transmission is not teaching someone how to meditation or how to follow the precepts, but the acknowledgement that one has attained the same level of awakening as the one who gives the transmission (see definitions give
here).
Can it happen outside the teacher to disciple relationship?
In various ways. If we take the aspect of historical lineage, then the answer is remote succession (yaosi 遙嗣), where one person claims inheritance from someone who is already dead. A modern example for that is how Xuyun transmitted the lineages of the three lost schools of Chan and thus Xuanhua became the ninth ancestor of the Guiyang line. If we take the awakening aspect, then anyone ever awakened could be said to have received the mind seal of the buddhas.
wasn't Chinul like that? And Huineng as well, the first breakthrough?
If what you refer to is whether someone can awaken without extended training under a single teacher, then yes, there are many examples from that starting with the agamas/nikayas where a monk asked for a brief instruction from the Buddha, then went away, meditated, and attained liberation. Jinul is an example of a super influential teacher within Zen who is not a lineage member. Hanshan Deqing is another such person. Two recent reformers, Hakuin in Japan and Gyeongheo in Korea, are also like that, as they have never received certification by anyone, but they are currently the sole sources of all Rinzai and Imje lineages in their respective countries. However, those latter two were quickly put in a lineage by their disciples.
If you are out to say that the entire teacher-student relationship is hyped up, well, come out and say so.
Dharma transmission generally means certification. It does not mean the whole process of learning. I do not say that studying under a teacher is unimportant, nor is that the topic.
Perhaps Secular Buddhism is more your thing.
Unlikely.
For my part I've really appreciated teachers' inputs and will continue to seek it when appropriate.
And so have I.