Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:05 pm"everything that had to be mastered" in order to do what though? Teach beings how to practice appropriately? Point them in the right direction, etc, etc? Which is what a teacher's job is. Does one really need to have attained anuttara samyak sambodhi in order to do that teacher job properly?
In theory Zen transmits the buddha-mind, so any member of the transmission lineage must have the mind of a buddha, in other words, be a buddha. In practice, it is whatever a lineage member seems fit. So either the very meaning of the lineage is incorrect, or the practice, or both, or one might believe that both are actually correct and valid. In order to accept both as valid the common choice has been to say that one specific line is true (or truer), but the others are corrupt, considering the regular criticism of everyone else (e.g. northerners vs southerners, heze chan vs hongzhou chan, kanhua chan vs mozhao chan).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by LastLegend »

muni wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:47 am
A Buddha would ‘receive’ any sentient being with no differentiation.
Lastlegend,
Because Buddha does not cling to great or small, women or man, such or such... whatever classification or form.
Buddha perceives Buddha.
Wisdom plays without obstructions, automatically helping all dreams to awaken, out of suffering.
We can use guidance, and then indeed the work to awaken is for us.
Zen instructions are very very simple... just body breath and proper focus. There is not much to add to it
One learns zen more through the body than teaching in the sense of reason or intelectual explanation
Hi Mathilda,
It are perhaps karmic dreams who are very complex. "Don't know", a Tibetan master gave as example, an example stolen from Zen. It seems to take self-ground away. Its actually all I know about Zen: Don't know.

Wonderful.
“Don’t know” my teacher meant the great non-self of emptiness.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by reiun »

Matylda wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:37 pm
reiun wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:21 pm
Matylda wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:44 pm

this drama does not happen anymore, bottom dropping out - it comes from very old texts of Chinese masters who came over to Japan in Kamakura era. today it is much less dramatic, since the power of practice is very weak in comparison with the oldies. Today it is enough to have just some intuition and there is another koan to go. we forgot that zen practice is for complete liberation, and there are many signs of it.



no. this would be another pitfall
Your opinion is misinformed and contradicted by direct contemporary experiences.
What do you mean? do you mean that 'the locked gaze, and another kind of senseless' is any achievment? or do you mean something else?
I mean specifically that I sincerely hope you realize what it takes to pass Mu, and thus make this conversation 'moot'.
山端 (大道) 法玄 Yamahata (Daidō) Hōgen (1935-)
After that, for seven years, I wondered around from monastery to monastery, from master to master, mainly staying at monasteries of the Rinzai sect - Kamakura, Kyoto, Kyushu with no answer at all. After seven years, at Kyoto station, I remembered the experience with the younger monk. He lived in Fukui prefecture, so I changed my train to visit him. I arrived at about eleven o'clock in the evening. That was in the midst of the november sesshin. When I saw him, he welcomed me, and again I asked him exactly the same question. He did not reply with the same answer, but just with "I understand your question - I would like to recommend that you join our sesshin", so I joined the sesshin. However, he gave me the koan "Mu", but, I didn't understand - what is Mu? My native koan, my homework, was different. I wanted to clarify the real absolute meaning of life, and the absolute answer for what I should do now, otherwise I can't move, can't sleep, can't eat - I can't even take one step, but he replied "Ok, I understand your question - if you really do this koan Mu, your native question will get the real answer because this is it - Mu". So, I believed him. "If I really do this Mu, can I get the real answer to my native question". He replied, "Yes". So during that sesshin I only did Mu, day and night, for the whole week, just Mu. Even at midnight, I sat in the graveyard outside - and just Mu. Mu. On the fifth night, when I did Mu, the whole universe, just Mu.

When I did Mu, the whole universe was Mu. When I went to the toilet, the whole universe followed me to the toilet. Whatever I do, the whole universe does the same, no gap at all - when I shout "aaaah", the whole universe is just "aaaah" - no gap, no separation, just oneness. The whole universe is just Mu. So, his promise was not wrong. That was the real answer for my question, not at an intellectual level, not an intellectual answer. So, my native question and answer both dissolved, disappeard. Just Mu.
[https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/hogen.html/quote]
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

reiun wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:18 pm When I did Mu, the whole universe was Mu. When I went to the toilet, the whole universe followed me to the toilet. Whatever I do, the whole universe does the same, no gap at all - when I shout "aaaah", the whole universe is just "aaaah" - no gap, no separation, just oneness. The whole universe is just Mu. So, his promise was not wrong. That was the real answer for my question, not at an intellectual level, not an intellectual answer. So, my native question and answer both dissolved, disappeard. Just Mu.
[https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/hogen.html/quote]
Well I think it is a joke, right? Such things almost do not happen nowdays. People pass mu without much experience. Hogen's was exceptional, since his master was exceptional, the kind you cannot find anymore. It is why Hogen chose him after walking all over Japan and visiting different masters. Anyway they both belong to the world which already died.

over 99,9% of practitioners are pretty excluded now from genuine experience due to their teachers who never had one. it concerns again the main subject - Are zen teachers awakened?
certain roshi in the Japanese deep provincial countryside who died already, and his disciple who is probably over 80 y.o. and had his experience over 50 years ago, do not change the situation of modern zen in the West, neither in the East.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:02 pm
seeker242 wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:05 pm"everything that had to be mastered" in order to do what though? Teach beings how to practice appropriately? Point them in the right direction, etc, etc? Which is what a teacher's job is. Does one really need to have attained anuttara samyak sambodhi in order to do that teacher job properly?
In theory Zen transmits the buddha-mind, so any member of the transmission lineage must have the mind of a buddha, in other words, be a buddha. In practice, it is whatever a lineage member seems fit. So either the very meaning of the lineage is incorrect, or the practice, or both, or one might believe that both are actually correct and valid. In order to accept both as valid the common choice has been to say that one specific line is true (or truer), but the others are corrupt, considering the regular criticism of everyone else (e.g. northerners vs southerners, heze chan vs hongzhou chan, kanhua chan vs mozhao chan).
It could be that the initial theory proposed above is just a wrong idea to begin with and zen transmission does not actually mean "this person is now a fully completed Buddha"
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:41 amIt could be that the initial theory proposed above is just a wrong idea to begin with and zen transmission does not actually mean "this person is now a fully completed Buddha"
What do you propose instead?
If there is no transmission, no lineage, then there is no Zen school to talk of, as it is one of, if not the only core element of it.

'The first ancestor, Bodhidharma, came from the west, and did not engage in various activities or give lectures on sutras or commentaries, but simply faced the wall in zazen for nine years at Shaolin. Sitting is exactly the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana. Generation after generation give face-to-face transmission, intimately receiving the secret seal, actually transmitting the bones and marrow between teachers and disciples. Just this is the single genuine matter; other things are not like this.'
(Eihei Koroku, IV.304, p 283; cf Shobogenzo Nehanmyoshin by Seijun Ishii)

'From Śākyamuni Buddha to Sōkei there are thirty-four patriarchs. Each of the transmissions between these Buddhist patriarchs is like Kāśyapa3 meeting the Tathāgata and like the Tathāgata getting Kāśyapa. Just as Śākyamuni Buddha learns in practice under Kāśyapa Buddha, each teacher and disciple exists in the present. Therefore, the right Dharma-eye treasury has been personally transmitted from rightful successor to rightful successor, and the true life of the Buddha-Dharma is nothing other than this authentic transmission.'
(Butsudo, in Shobogenzo, BDK ed, vol 3, p 88)

'When viewed in terms of the clerical elite, in other words, Zen clearly constitutes the most successful form of Buddhism in East Asia. Why has it been so successful? In 1987, John Jorgensen suggested one answer. It is basically the same explanation that Dogen gave. To wit: "The authentic life of the Buddha dharma exists only in this authentic transmission." In other words, Zen is the predominant form of Buddhism because of dharma transmission.'
(Dharma Transmission in Theory and Practice by William M. Bodiford, in Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice, p 264)

'Where the doctrinal schools (jiao) locate authoritative tradition in the transmission of the Buddhist scriptures, the Chan school looks to a "mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself. Known variously as the "transmission of the lamp or flame" or the "transmission of the treasury of the true eye of the Dharma," Chan claims to be heir to a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind that runs parallel to his spoken word-Dharma.
...
Institutionally speaking, a Chan master is someone who has awakened to the Buddha Mind through Chan training and whose enlightenment has been tested and sanctioned (C. yinke; J. inka) by an existing Chan master. Using the flame and lamp analogy, one could say that transmission of Chan Dharma requires that three things be simultaneously present: the enlightened insight of a previously sanctioned Chan master, the enlightened insight of the disciple, and the living reality of the Buddhadharma or Buddha Mind in which both are grounded. If any one of these is missing, enlightenment and transmission cannot be considered genuine, at least by Chan standards. By the same token, the formal granting of sanction is especially key to this, since the very basis of Chan practice and the integrity of Chan as an institution hinges on the idea that the historical transmission preserves intact the "Mind Dharma" of Buddha Sakyamuni. It is this certified wisdom that Chan practitioners seek to "ignite" and verify in their own minds; and, as the embodiment of that light, it is to the Chan master that he or she looks for guidance.'

(Hoofprint of the Ox by Sheng-yen, p 112, 113)

Some more on the nature of dharma transmission according to various sources:

'Dharma Transmission is what happens when your sight clears enough that you can see what your teacher and the Buddha have already seen: things as they are.'
(Hardcore Zen, p 73)

'Back when Gautama Buddha was alive there was an incident in wich he stepped up to give a talk. As was customary in India, flowers had been strewn at his feet before he began to teach. Instead of speaking, Gautama just picked up one of those flowers and held it silently aloft - and a guy named Mahakashyapa, one of his longtime students, smiled. Then the Buddha winked at him, called it a day's teaching, and walked away.
This little scene is viewed by Zen Buddhists as the moment when the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself. The Buddha's silent wink was taken to be the start of the formal acknowledgement known today as Dharma Transmission.'

(Hardcore Zen, p 137)

'Dharma transmission is actually the acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own.'
(The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Zen Buddhism, p 71)

yinke. ( J. inka; K. in’ga 印可). In Chinese, lit. “seal of/in approval,” “certification” and often seen in Western sources in its Japanese pronunciation inka; a seal of approval, certification, or transmission, which is given by masters in the various CHAN traditions across East Asia to practitioners who, in their estimation, have attained a satisfactory level of awakening or maturity of understanding to serve as public exponents of their lineage. Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha, to accept and train students, and to give them certification in turn once their training is complete.
(The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, p 1029)

'In an attempt to distinguish itself from the other Buddhist traditions that sought the teachings of the Buddha in sūtras and commentaries, the burgeoning Chan tradition of the eighth and ninth centuries emphasized the nonverbal transmission of the Buddha’s teachings. The notion of mind-to-mind transmission has thus served as an important trope in the self-fashioning of the Chan tradition.'
(on 'yixin chuanxin' in The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, p 1032)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:52 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:41 amIt could be that the initial theory proposed above is just a wrong idea to begin with and zen transmission does not actually mean "this person is now a fully completed Buddha"
What do you propose instead?
If there is no transmission, no lineage, then there is no Zen school to talk of, as it is one of, if not the only core element of it.
I propose that lineage and transmission does not mean full complete 100% Buddha, AKA 10th bhumi, etc, but rather what it actually says below that you quoted.

yinke. ( J. inka; K. in’ga 印可). In Chinese, lit. “seal of/in approval,” “certification” and often seen in Western sources in its Japanese pronunciation inka; a seal of approval, certification, or transmission, which is given by masters in the various CHAN traditions across East Asia to practitioners who, in their estimation, have attained a satisfactory level of awakening or maturity of understanding to serve as public exponents of their lineage.
A satisfactory level awakening. I don't see anything in any of the above that dictates that only 100% full, complete, perfection is the only thing that is satisfactory.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:27 pmA satisfactory level awakening.
What is that level?
I don't see anything in any of the above that dictates that only 100% full, complete, perfection is the only thing that is satisfactory.
Then let me highlight some passages and words from the above quotes.
  • 'the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself'
  • 'acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own'
  • 'Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha'
  • '"mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself'
  • 'a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind'
  • 'a Chan master is someone who has awakened to the Buddha Mind'
  • 'the historical transmission preserves intact the "Mind Dharma" of Buddha Sakyamuni'
Dogen identifies what is transmitted as "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana", just as it is in the so called Flower Sermon, and that expression itself is meant as not just the essence of the Dharma, but also what encompasses all the teachings. Being enlightened to that means knowing and embodying the entirety of the Dharma, exactly like the Buddha. As the transmission itself means a confirmation that the successor is on equal stance with the transmitter, since it is the Buddha himself who initiated it, all successors are on the same level as the Buddha. How could it be anything less than that? Do you assume that being enlightened to, or possessing/being the mind of the Buddha, is something less than buddhahood, that there is something more to attain?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by reiun »

Matylda wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:57 am
reiun wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:18 pm When I did Mu, the whole universe was Mu. When I went to the toilet, the whole universe followed me to the toilet. Whatever I do, the whole universe does the same, no gap at all - when I shout "aaaah", the whole universe is just "aaaah" - no gap, no separation, just oneness. The whole universe is just Mu. So, his promise was not wrong. That was the real answer for my question, not at an intellectual level, not an intellectual answer. So, my native question and answer both dissolved, disappeard. Just Mu.
[https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/hogen.html/quote]
Well I think it is a joke, right?
This comment and others you have made, such as koan study being "senseless" (i.e., pointless, stupid,, etc.) are inappropriate (they "question or critique teachings and practices of traditions in sub-forums dedicated to those particular traditions.") So not interested in engaging your comments on this topic.
Matylda wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:57 am over 99,9% of practitioners are pretty excluded now from genuine experience due to their teachers who never had one. it concerns again the main subject - Are zen teachers awakened?
If you understood the experience of passing Mu, the traditional first koan in a course of koan study, you could never say such a thing.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Astus wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:01 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:27 pmA satisfactory level awakening.
What is that level?
I don't see anything in any of the above that dictates that only 100% full, complete, perfection is the only thing that is satisfactory.
Then let me highlight some passages and words from the above quotes.
  • 'the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself'
  • 'acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own'
  • 'Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha'
  • '"mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself'
  • 'a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind'
  • 'a Chan master is someone who has awakened to the Buddha Mind'
  • 'the historical transmission preserves intact the "Mind Dharma" of Buddha Sakyamuni'
Dogen identifies what is transmitted as "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana", just as it is in the so called Flower Sermon, and that expression itself is meant as not just the essence of the Dharma, but also what encompasses all the teachings. Being enlightened to that means knowing and embodying the entirety of the Dharma, exactly like the Buddha. As the transmission itself means a confirmation that the successor is on equal stance with the transmitter, since it is the Buddha himself who initiated it, all successors are on the same level as the Buddha. How could it be anything less than that? Do you assume that being enlightened to, or possessing/being the mind of the Buddha, is something less than buddhahood, that there is something more to attain?
That’s great. My personal thoughts is a lot of teaching on the forum is influenced by Sravakayana, so the fruit to Buddhahood is limited.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

reiun wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:39 pm
Well I think it is a joke, right?
This comment and others you have made, such as koan study being "senseless" (i.e., pointless, stupid,, etc.) are inappropriate (they "question or critique teachings and practices of traditions in sub-forums dedicated to those particular traditions.") So not interested in engaging your comments on this topic.
Matylda wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:57 am over 99,9% of practitioners are pretty excluded now from genuine experience due to their teachers who never had one. it concerns again the main subject - Are zen teachers awakened?
If you understood the experience of passing Mu, the traditional first koan in a course of koan study, you could never say such a thing.
[/quote]

First i base my opinions on my own work when I had to interpret for foreigners
second it comes from my own questions to teachers and monks whom I could ask and got the clear answer
third, the critique of modern koan study, lack of samadhi power and kensho experience is made also by contemporary rinzai teachers in Japan, who express their concern about the level of zazen practice
so I think that the source is reliable and I have no doubt about what they say
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Malcolm »

Matylda wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:21 pm
reiun wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:39 pm If you understood the experience of passing Mu, the traditional first koan in a course of koan study, you could never say such a thing.
First i base my opinions on my own work when I had to interpret for foreigners
second it comes from my own questions to teachers and monks whom I could ask and got the clear answer
third, the critique of modern koan study, lack of samadhi power and kensho experience is made also by contemporary rinzai teachers in Japan, who express their concern about the level of zazen practice
so I think that the source is reliable and I have no doubt about what they say
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by seeker242 »

Astus wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:01 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:27 pmA satisfactory level awakening.
What is that level?
I don't know, I'm not a zen master. However, to claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.
Dogen identifies what is transmitted as "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana"
Yes, and to assert that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent of whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person has no idea what that is and therefore can't teach anyone about it, or guide anyone to it, I don't think that is reasonable. Such a person would have intimate knowledge of "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana"
'the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself'
According to who? The person who wrote that excerpt? Is that person a Buddha? If not, then how would they know?
'acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own'
According to Brad Warner? I think most people would laugh if it was claimed he was actual 100% perfect Buddha, including himself.
'Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha'
Who says that actual 100% Buddhahood is required to speak that way? Is everybody else just a fool who has no idea what any of that is, until they attain actual 100% perfect Buddhahood?
'a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind'
Every person who has not yet attained actual 100% perfect Buddhahood, has no idea what that is? According to who?
'"mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself'
To understand what a vision of that is, and to be able to relay it to others, who says that requires actual 100% perfect Buddhahood?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Astus »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pmto claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.
There is no such claim. The claim is that Zen transmits the very mind of the Buddha, that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself. If the claim was something other, that for instance they transmitted the realisation of a bodhisattva, or an arhat, or something else, then it wouldn't be the transmission of the buddha-mind. This is practically in order to be able to say that it can stand apart from the very teachings of the Buddha that one can find in the sutras, that a member of the lineage can be on an equal level as a source of truth as the sutras.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by LastLegend »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm
Yes, and to assert that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent of whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person has no idea what that is and therefore can't teach anyone about it, or guide anyone to it, I don't think that is reasonable. Such a person would have intimate knowledge of "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana"
Three things:
1) You need to vow to remain here to continue help sentient beings.
2) You need to tell yourself this is the last time you will take rebirth by karma.
3) You will transcend to absolute emptiness.

Then celestial beings will seal you.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by seeker242 »

Astus wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:40 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pmto claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.
There is no such claim. The claim is that Zen transmits the very mind of the Buddha, that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself.
Yes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.

If the claim was something other, that for instance they transmitted the realisation of a bodhisattva, or an arhat, or something else, then it wouldn't be the transmission of the buddha-mind. This is practically in order to be able to say that it can stand apart from the very teachings of the Buddha that one can find in the sutras, that a member of the lineage can be on an equal level as a source of truth as the sutras.
There is nothing there that dictates that 8th/9th bhumi, etc, etc. would not have that necessary knowledge to do all of the above.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Malcolm
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Malcolm »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm
Astus wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:40 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pmto claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.
There is no such claim. The claim is that Zen transmits the very mind of the Buddha, that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself.
Yes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.
Neither is the 10th, since the stage of buddhahood is the 11th, in sūtrayāna.
PeterC
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:32 pm
Matylda wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:21 pm
reiun wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:39 pm If you understood the experience of passing Mu, the traditional first koan in a course of koan study, you could never say such a thing.
First i base my opinions on my own work when I had to interpret for foreigners
second it comes from my own questions to teachers and monks whom I could ask and got the clear answer
third, the critique of modern koan study, lack of samadhi power and kensho experience is made also by contemporary rinzai teachers in Japan, who express their concern about the level of zazen practice
so I think that the source is reliable and I have no doubt about what they say
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Astus
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Astus »

seeker242 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pmYes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.
If the transmission were of something less than the buddha-mind, then it'd be a gradual path, something that Zen teachers distanced themselves from right at the start, and only kept strengthening that position over the centuries.

Baizhang Huaihai explained it this way:

'Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 31)

'Only a Buddha alone is a great teacher, because there is no second person; the rest are all called outsiders, also called demons talking.'
(p 37)

'From the first to the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood they are still disciples - right now as long as they have any seeking mind at all, they’re all called immoral monks, nominal saints; they’re all called jackals. Clearly they can’t digest the offerings of others.'
(p 57)

'Even people in the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood cannot get rid of this completely, and flow into the river of birth and death.'
(p 58)

'The first, second, third, and fourth stages have the affliction of clear understanding; the fifth, sixth, and seventh stages have the affliction of various kinds of knowledge, the eighth, ninth, and tenth stages have the afflictions of bodhisattvas simultaneously illumining both realities, on up to the affliction of cultivating the fruit of Buddhahood and its innumerable practices - you only care for knowledge and understanding of meanings and expressions, and don’t realize that instead these are binding afflictions.'
(p 68)

And Huangbo:

'Even if you attain the three [stages of] sagehood and the four fruits [of the Hinayana] and complete the ten stages [of the bodhisattva], you will still remain within [the domain of] ordinary and sagely.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 38)

Linji went even further:

'Followers of the Way, if you take my viewpoint you’ll cut off the heads of the saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya buddhas; a bodhisattva who has attained the completed mind of the tenth stage will be like a mere hireling; a bodhisattva of equivalent enlightenment or a bodhisattva of marvelous enlightenment will be like pilloried prisoners; an arhat and a pratyekabuddha will be like privy fi lth; bodhi and nirvana will be like hitching posts for asses. Why is this so? Followers of the Way, it is only because you haven’t yet realized the emptiness of the three asamkhyeya kalpas that you have such obstacles.'
(Record of Linji, p 10, tr Sasaki)

'Followers of the Way, don’t take the Buddha to be the ultimate. As I see it, he is just like a privy hole. Both bodhisattvahood and arhatship are cangues and chains that bind one. Th is is why Mañjuśrī tried to kill Gautama with his sword, and why Aṅgulimāla attempted to slay Śākyamuni with his dagger.'
(p 31)

But that's all Hongzhou school interpretation. For something closer to the gradual perspective there are the teachings of Zongmi, Yanshou, and Jinul, although they still insist on first gaining sudden awakening to buddha-mind.
There is nothing there that dictates that 8th/9th bhumi, etc, etc. would not have that necessary knowledge to do all of the above.
As you can see above, there actually is a view that even a bodhisattva on the highest stage is not good enough.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Dan74
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Dan74 »

I think there are texts and there is reality on the ground.

The reality on the ground is that one has to look long and hard to find a fully-awakened master in any school. And whether Zen, Vajrayana or any other lineage, there are many sincere and dedicated teachers who are able to assist the students with their practice to some extent.

This is how it's always been. Whether in the past it was better, I cannot say. But other people are certain these are degenerate time, the Kali Yuga, etc. :shrug:

One thing is clear to me though, we can wring our hands about the absence of enlightened teachers, degeneration of the Dharma, etc, or we can practice and realise that that is indeed the best and only way to address these concerns.

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