Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by seeker242 »

Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:59 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:47 pmBecause they understand it well enough without having to continue reading books about it
Do you mean that everything there is to know to attain buddhahood is found in buddha-mind, and a Zen teacher knows buddha-mind "well enough" to no longer need to study the Buddha's teachings?

What I mean is that a person can know Buddha mind well that they don’t need to utilize books in order to guide people to it.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:46 pmWhat I mean is that a person can know Buddha mind well that they don’t need to utilize books in order to guide people to it.
That is not what relying on the scriptures means. It means that the source of one's knowledge originates from them. If Dharma transmission in Zen does not mean that the mind of Kashyapa matched the mind of the Buddha, i.e. that Kashyapa was of equal awakening to Shakyamuni, then it is a partial realisation that is passed on, it is incomplete, therefore not enough to attain buddhahood. And then in order to fulfil the goal of Mahayana, one necessarily needs to learn the rest of the teachings from the only other source available: the scriptures. Those Zen teachers who favoured the teaching of "sudden enlightenment, gradual practice" taught the harmony of Zen and doctrine, mainly Huayan. Here's what Yanshou wrote:

'QUESTION If you want to clarify the implicit truth of Buddhism [zong], you need only promote the message of the patriarchs. What use is there in combining it with citations from the oral teachings of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas, taking these as a guide? The reason why members of Chan lineages [zongmen] claim “By availing oneself of the eyes of a snake, one will not distinguish things for oneself” is that one only becomes a sage of words and letters [by following the scriptures], but does not enter the ranks of the patriarchs.
ANSWER The above claim is not intended to prohibit reading the scriptures. I worry that people will not know well the words of the Buddha. People develop understanding through texts. When people forget about the Buddha’s message, one safeguards the minds of beginners on the basis of [texts]. Whoever understands the teaching through the corpus of Buddhist writings will not create a mind and realm of objects in opposition to each other, but will realize the mind of the Buddha directly. What error is there in this?'

(Yongming Yanshou's Conception of Chan in the Zongjing lu: a special transmission within the sciptures by Albert Welter, p 248-249)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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seeker242
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by seeker242 »

Astus wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:22 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:46 pmWhat I mean is that a person can know Buddha mind well that they don’t need to utilize books in order to guide people to it.
That is not what relying on the scriptures means. It means that the source of one's knowledge originates from them.
And if they knew Buddha mind well enough, the source of one's knowledge would originate from them, precisely because they know it well enough.

But like I said earlier, you obviously interpret it differently than I, which is fine by me. I don't feel any need to try and prove to you that my interpretation is the correct one because I don't really care how you interpret it. You are free to interpret it however you like. So that means I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me, which really means continuing to debate it is just plain pointless, so that's that. :smile:

:anjali:
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by muni »

Buddha need in no any way to rely on scriptures, but what is called realm humans very much need it. We need as well known names to trust. All tangible tools, without, how can it reach most of us in our dream?

Liberating wisdom is not created. It is only to help us with all kind of tools Awaken Nature helps with created dharma which can be used to realize uncreated Dharma.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Which means new teachings arise in conjunction with sentient beings’ capacities.
Wisdom arises continuously as the adornment of that space.
Not created or achieved, it abides timelessly.
Like the sun in the sky, it is amazing and superb.
Fools like me need to go out of Zen! I go backwards bowing.


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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:22 am The question was very simple and straight - Are zen teachers awakened? Isn't it?
I gave the answer - NO. Then in the course of the discussion i gave the reason why I think NO.

There were many yes/no other posts. In the meantime I got a few private massages, some pretty abusive.
Probably I have offended some DW friends. Well will try to live with this and go on in my life with that burden :)

next, I wonder why anyone asked such question? and what the proper answer was expected? and if one is asking such sensitive question, i guess is doing it in serious sincerity, and also is waiting for the sincere answer. Am I right... or maybe wrong?
Matylda: I was disheartened to read that you received abusive PMs. It's unfortunate that people can rationalize their Wrong Speech.

First, I want to note that my question was clearly directed to Zen students and explicitly excluded non-Zennists.

As I explained to Grigoris, “why the question arose in my mind, I don’t know . . . and don’t remember what I might have read that gave cause.” When the question arose, I thought all, if not most, Zen students would answer in the affirmative (“yes, yes, yes”). Because I don’t belong to a Zen sangha and because of the raging pandemic here in California, I thought I could ask here and have the opportunity to confirm (or not) my belief in what Zen students believed about their Zen teachers.

Since I don’t live in Japan or Europe, I’ll focus on Zen in America and even here I’m more familiar with San Francisco Bay Area than others areas of America.

I have no idea what the proper number of Zen teachers in America in 2020 should be and I don’t know how one would arrive at a number. Do you? And training differs from sect to sect, lineage to lineage, but here is a link to the Board Members of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association. Of the Zen teachers who are on the Board (There are a few non-Zen teachers on the Board.), please tell me which teacher hasn’t sufficient training? And if you click on Teachers you'll see a long list of teachers who meet SZBA requirements.

Further, I have sat with the following Soto Zen teachers and would attest that each has, at a minimum, “glimpsed their true nature”:

Reb Anderson: See Zen Training for the Welfare of the World
Ed Brown: Listen The Ten Thousand Idiots
Norman Fisher: There are too many Dharma talks to pick, so choose your topic Everyday Zen
Alan Senauke: And for something really different, Everything Is Broken

You can decide for yourself who’s real and who’s not.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:47 pm You can decide for yourself who’s real and who’s not.
Clyde

thank you for your answer and care. I did not deny any of those people to be zen teacher. They are in fact, since due to causes and conditions they were put in the position. But when we touch awakening it is very different matter. There is also question of instructions, if correct instrctions are given to disciples or not, and if they are clear or hazy and unclear.
If we read writings of old masters, including Dogen, Hakuin and others it often comes to the point of their expressed criticism concerning teachers of their time. It is nothing wrong since they expressed their concern about the future of the dharma. Nothing else.
However today in our modern world any criticism is viewed as incorrect. Moreover even Buddhist ethical tenets of incorrect speech are used as an argument. Actually today in Japan there is ongoing discussion just about awakening, its depth and power, and there are no bad feelings about it, though generally teachers - roshis themselves are criticised for the state of things. And no bad feelings come. Bu there is attentive listening to what some say.
If one uses argument of incorrect speech, then unlimited space is left for the false claims. Teachers of old were aware of it. And I do not mean their spears to be directed when they were already after satori, but it was before, they had this critical mind which pushed them to visit different teachers and finally it was the factor which was crucial for their awakening.

Once I read testimony of a senior American teacher who said that though he had some insights, what missed in his practice was a genuine and deep satori. The man is dead now, but probably was one of the pioneers in America. This is worth of respect and the sincerity with which he said so is praiseworthy.
Today I do not see people like him.

Generally zen teachers, whether in the East or the West carry extremely heavy burden of responsibility, and if they take things lightly or without self criticism then only they will be resposnsible for this that something was missing in heir teachings and training.
Once I heard story in Japan when certain old roshi who was famous for his zen power visited an important monastery in the region, and an abbot of the monastery who was responsible for the training of monks and lay practitioners told him, I do not have this power of satori and experience as you have roshi, and the old roshi said - so why do you teach others!? And the abbot was silenced and confused. And the abbo himself was not a newcomer, or someone put in position by a sheer accident.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:05 amGenerally zen teachers, whether in the East or the West carry extremely heavy burden of responsibility, and if they take things lightly or without self criticism then only they will be resposnsible for this that something was missing in heir teachings and training.
'If sentient beings encounter someone with errant views in their quest for a good friend, they will never attain true enlightenment — that is a case of what is referred to as heterodox nature. The errors of the false teacher are not the fault of sentient beings.'
(The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 5, BDK ed, p 77)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Matylda »

Astus wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:51 am
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:05 amGenerally zen teachers, whether in the East or the West carry extremely heavy burden of responsibility, and if they take things lightly or without self criticism then only they will be resposnsible for this that something was missing in heir teachings and training.
'If sentient beings encounter someone with errant views in their quest for a good friend, they will never attain true enlightenment — that is a case of what is referred to as heterodox nature. The errors of the false teacher are not the fault of sentient beings.'
(The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 5, BDK ed, p 77)
:shock:
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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I hope I may comment something, although late. I have been ill the last few weeks. That sickness that is in the news.

For Master Dogen, realization of a Buddha was in our acts, words and thoughts right now and here. If we act with freedom from greed, anger and divided mind then we manifest Buddha. It is also vital that we truly see through this world of division and individuals to the absolute which is its other face.

I know many Zen teachers, east and west, who manifest all of that. It is not a matter of some opening, but about how one opens each and every day. It is not about one insight, but how one lives in life.

So, yes, many Zen teachers I know personally are awakened. That does not mean that they are perfect beings, but they all know the perfection of being.

Lillian
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Lillian wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:24 am I hope I may comment something, although late. I have been ill the last few weeks. That sickness that is in the news.

Glad you are okay.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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clyde wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:32 pm This is a question for Zen students (not Zen teachers nor about other traditions, only those that follow from Bodhidharma).

Is it your understanding that all Zen teachers have had an awakening (commonly expressed in Zen as “seeing one’s true nature”) though to varying degrees? It’s my understanding that it’s so and matches my limited exposure to some Western Zen teachers.

But I’m curious how others see it.
To my understanding no matter whether we are taking about western or eastern chan/zen/seon/thien teachers (china, japan, korea, vietnam) majority are not awakened , meaning they did not have awakening experience(s) kensho or kenshos and only very few had.

Fortunately i have the opportunity to practice with an awakened rinzai zen teacher.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Awakened is equal awakened of Sixth Patriarch.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by master of puppets »

As far as I see to be awakened can be very easy and/or so deep. different levels..
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by unborn »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:02 pm Awakened is equal awakened of Sixth Patriarch.
The op did not ask if there are any zen teachers who are as awakened as Hui neng, or Hakuin, or Torei or pick up anyone else you like to compare with 😉
The op by awakened means one who has realized or awakened to one's true nature or in other words had at least one awakening experience or kensho.
i think that most zen practitioners in this forum know that it is very rare that the initial kensho is deep and deeply transformative, much less final, so post awakening practice is a must for deepening of the initial awakening by having subsequent kenshos.

And when i said that the teacher with whom i practice is awakened it was not said that he is fully awakened or awakened as Hui neng or else.

A westerner who trained in Japan under Rinzai zen teacher for 25 years and became one of the 2 dharma heirs, received inka shomei and is lineage holder is awakened teacher without any doubt.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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unborn wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:01 pm Fortunately i have the opportunity to practice with an awakened rinzai zen teacher.
I congratulate you on having an awakened Zen teacher. You mention his sect (Rinzai), but not his name?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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unborn wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:01 pm
Fortunately i have the opportunity to practice with an awakened rinzai zen teacher.
And how do you actually know your teacher is awakened? What is the sign or mark of that awakening?
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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Maybe the finely webbed toes and fingers? :rolling:
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

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unborn wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:28 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:02 pm Awakened is equal awakened of Sixth Patriarch.
The op did not ask if there are any zen teachers who are as awakened as Hui neng, or Hakuin, or Torei or pick up anyone else you like to compare with 😉
The op by awakened means one who has realized or awakened to one's true nature or in other words had at least one awakening experience or kensho.
i think that most zen practitioners in this forum know that it is very rare that the initial kensho is deep and deeply transformative, much less final, so post awakening practice is a must for deepening of the initial awakening by having subsequent kenshos.

And when i said that the teacher with whom i practice is awakened it was not said that he is fully awakened or awakened as Hui neng or else.

A westerner who trained in Japan under Rinzai zen teacher for 25 years and became one of the 2 dharma heirs, received inka shomei and is lineage holder is awakened teacher without any doubt.
Fair unborn never arise, yet what arises is functional.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:03 pm
unborn wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:01 pm
Fortunately i have the opportunity to practice with an awakened rinzai zen teacher.
And how do you actually know your teacher is awakened? What is the sign or mark of that awakening?
Your own Buddha-nature sees or understands the awakened quality in an other person. Think about your own life, how and why did you embark on the spiritual life? Was there not an experience of someone being awakened to your mind. Some people may afterwards want to change the actual order of events, and put instead of the real event something that is more acceptable in their new social identity group. Anyway, something must have taken place, that is of vast importance.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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