Katsu?

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shanehanner
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Katsu?

Post by shanehanner »

What is the practice here and what is the purpose? Is this Katsu? minute 5:12

passel
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Re: Katsu?

Post by passel »

shanehanner wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:01 am What is the practice here and what is the purpose? Is this Katsu? minute 5:12

It's an overspilling of the ki. One of his students has a blog at zenembodiment.com
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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shanehanner
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Re: Katsu?

Post by shanehanner »

passel wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:01 am
shanehanner wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:01 am What is the practice here and what is the purpose? Is this Katsu? minute 5:12

It's an overspilling of the ki. One of his students has a blog at zenembodiment.com
I see. So is this done as a way for the teacher to measure a students cultivation of qi or what is the purpose?
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well wisher
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Re: Katsu?

Post by well wisher »

I found the video section from minute 5:35 onward hilarious. Like a yelling contest drama show between a student and master. :rolling: :twothumbsup: "FIT"!
I have no idea what is going on, can someone enlighten me about that?

Zen Koan humour - To me, the wordplays can produce joy and laughter even more intoxicating than any world substances! (eg. alcohol and drugs).
Oh man, I am bursting with laughter :rolling: :yinyang:

What is the antidote, quiet-seated mediation with no words? :meditate:
source_learning
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Re: Katsu?

Post by source_learning »

I'm probably not the best person to answer this, but I've known a few people who practiced at Sogenji. Trainees go to the abbot several times a day to demonstrate their realization of their koan. This is a common way that realization gets expressed (particularly so, I imagine, when language difficulties are involved) but it's not the only way.

By all accounts, this is the most difficult part of the training: having to display your understanding to the master day after day after day in this no-holds-barred fashion. I heard of monks (not here, but at another monastery) having to be literally dragged to the dokusan room. During my two and a half years in Soto Zen, I only had the opportunity to do this a handful of times, and it was more about requesting instruction than demonstrating anything.
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well wisher
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Re: Katsu?

Post by well wisher »

Very interesting, thanks very much for the info on this zen practice! This is new knowledge to me.
Matylda
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Re: Katsu?

Post by Matylda »

Altogether it is very sad or even stupid to film such things.. neither eyes or ears should never reach to others sanzen/dokusan.. to discuss others dokusan i utterly stupid thing.. shame that someone filmed dokusan/sanzen between roshi and disciple.. real shame
zengarten
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Re: Katsu?

Post by zengarten »

On the contrary - open vastness, nothing to hide!
Train your voice before you have your first meeting with such a master and destroy his eardrums with your first katsu!
Then report back.
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bokki
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Re: Katsu?

Post by bokki »

Madam Matylda..,
i must be wrong here,
but a katzu has never been a hidden thing,
nor a question at dokusan.
more over, it has been freely shown on numerous occasions,
to a wast number of people.
it is not a koan, per se,
so it does not need to be thought in secret,
so there is no need to be sad.
it is not mujino koan, or the sound of one hand.
btw, i, personally, find it funny, and lacking,
it seems to me, as if someone is coughing..
but, all in all, mdm, m, its not a koan...
and if they go shouting like this..they may worry a mouse or a rat.
sqweeek.
Matylda
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Re: Katsu?

Post by Matylda »

for the reason of extremely stupid commentscoming out of ignorance and basic misunderstanding it is why such things should never be open or disclosed to public...
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bokki
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Re: Katsu?

Post by bokki »

madam, i do not want to stretch this,
but can you tell me,
have you not been at a making of a monastic?
madam, have you never heard a katsu, outside of the closed doors of dokusan?
even, is it not, that a katsu has been used, publicly..
for centuries? since, lets say, Rinzai?
why lament now,
its an old school tool.
not a secret..
please, why sad?
a katsu will never be a secret,
its for all of us to hear and see..
i am sorry, i may not know what im talking about, madam
source_learning
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Re: Katsu?

Post by source_learning »

Matylda wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:33 pm for the reason of extremely stupid commentscoming out of ignorance and basic misunderstanding it is why such things should never be open or disclosed to public...
I won't claim to be free of ignorance and know that my comment is just addressing the surface of what is happening in these interactions. My experience is in Soto Zen in Japan--somehow when I wrote "2.5 years of training in Soto Zen monasteries in Japan," that got edited. I don't have any personal investment in the question of whether what I encountered and heard from others is "authentic Zen" or not any more as I've chosen not to continue wearing robes as a representative of the tradition.

But I would note that Dogen himself recorded many of the interactions he had with his own teacher in the dokusan room (in Hokyoki.) And also that Harada Roshi is an extremely respected teacher, both in the West and in Japan, and is for many a representative par excellence of the Rinzai tradition. He almost certainly authorized this video. I've appreciated much of what you've written elsewhere, but without any knowledge of your own experience in Zen, it's difficult to contextualize your comments.
Matylda
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Re: Katsu?

Post by Matylda »

My experience in zen is irrelevent as for the confusion such videos make. As for Sogeji roshi I guess he approved however certainly he does not read this forum neither is probably not aware of the confusion it makes on this forum. And there is beyond any doubt that dokusan is a prvate matter not public, and should ot be discussed in public.
source_learning
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Re: Katsu?

Post by source_learning »

Matylda wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:36 pm My experience in zen is irrelevent as for the confusion such videos make. As for Sogeji roshi I guess he approved however certainly he does not read this forum neither is probably not aware of the confusion it makes on this forum. And there is beyond any doubt that dokusan is a prvate matter not public, and should ot be discussed in public.
Fair enough, and I agree that people shouldn't discuss what is happening in their own dokusan experiences. I don't think anyone at Sogenji is doing that; these are just empty images and sounds.

But I don't see any harm though in discussing the context in which this is occurring, especially if it may help prevent views that are grossly off-base. But I'll leave that to those more immersed in the tradition than myself to decide.
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bokki
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Re: Katsu?

Post by bokki »

madam, may you point what exactly is the confusion this video brings.
all i have seen is a practicing dojo.
and a few katsu.
why would that be a problem, please?
i have not seen any koans being answered.
lol, there is even books with answers.
well, anyway
i think, personally,
it is a great video,
and i watched it with pleasure.
KAAAAAAAAAATSU!
lol.
Matylda
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Re: Katsu?

Post by Matylda »

source_learning wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:47 pmF
air enough, and I agree that people shouldn't discuss what is happening in their own dokusan experiences. I don't think anyone at Sogenji is doing that; these are just empty images and sounds.

But I don't see any harm though in discussing the context in which this is occurring, especially if it may help prevent views that are grossly off-base. But I'll leave that to those more immersed in the tradition than myself to decide.
Well as far as such things exist people will discuss them, isn't it? Since Sogenji is a place for foreigners mainly, my guess is that they also do discuss, without roshi being aware of course, so probably more privately then it happens here with wild and blind guesses and opinions. Anyway it is pretty unhealthy to stir the minds of ignorant people by such public show.
Matylda
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Re: Katsu?

Post by Matylda »

As ar as I remember stories about foriegners training in Japan at Morinaga Soko roshi place, where there were also non Japanese practitioners, roshi at once kicked out anyone trying to discuss dokusan/sanzen or koan. But it was much much smaller group then f.e. Sogenji, so much easier o control and see whats up with people.
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