Bliss in Zen (sukha)

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Wayfarer »

I think 'chasing after experience' is one thing - we are warned against pursuing it, or being attached to it. But I'm sure any meditator here will know that blissful feelings will sometimes arise after meditation. When that first happened to me, it was a complete surprise and totally unexpected. It was also in the most mundane of circumstances, namely standing at the checkout later in the day, a short while after I had taken up daily sitting. I hadn't known that these feelings could arise at all. Of course I was very impressed by that, and of course then I wished for it again. But after a while I began to realise that I had absolutely no control over it. It might happen, might not. Over time I became aware that hankering after those kinds of feelings was itself a hindrance, so I learned to let go of that; I thought of it as 'the bliss you cannot have'. I suppose it still happens from time to time, but I don't do anything to cultivate it, if it happens, it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Well, bliss that "might happen", or might not is not the kind of bliss that is usually referred to in poems by Mahasiddhas and whatnot, since that's what started this thread. That "bliss" is in fact unshakeable and beyond happening or not happening, or being produced by conditions, including meditation. That's why meditation is not actually doing, or is non-doing, or however you want to say it - something which does come up in Zen all the time also. However unless you are a realized person it appears that it comes and goes because you have your afflictions and obscurations in the way. On the other hand, samsaric bliss, and any samsaric experience really can also be a gateway to real "bliss", and in fact of course ultimately is not something different anyway. That's my understanding at any rate.

So, if one has a good teacher, they can point out to one the difference between samsaric bliss and the "real bliss", and this is in fact, part of the reason to have a good one, IMO. The bliss-chasing trip (follow your bliss lol) is a big thing, inside and outside of Buddhadharma, and such an easy mistake to make, especially in our culture that worships happiness, but has so little of it:(
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by muni »

So, if one has a good teacher, they can point out to one the difference between samsaric bliss and the "real bliss", and this is in fact, part of the reason to have a good one, IMO. The bliss-chasing trip (follow your bliss lol) is a big thing, inside and outside of Buddhadharma, and such an easy mistake to make, especially in our culture that worships happiness, but has so little of it:(
I do not think it is so easy, just to have a good teacher. Since when our mind is not ready, we can have all great awaken masters with full power trying to help, but how it will work? But indeed awaken masters can point out what is not ego.

No need to lose our courage, all have/is Buddha Nature.
*I do not teach separation.* sz.

Wisdom beings know that we are not separate. This is why they are able to grant blessings."
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

muni wrote:
So, if one has a good teacher, they can point out to one the difference between samsaric bliss and the "real bliss", and this is in fact, part of the reason to have a good one, IMO. The bliss-chasing trip (follow your bliss lol) is a big thing, inside and outside of Buddhadharma, and such an easy mistake to make, especially in our culture that worships happiness, but has so little of it:(
I do not think it is so easy, just to have a good teacher. Since when our mind is not ready, we can have all great awaken masters with full power trying to help, but how it will work? But indeed awaken masters can point out what is not ego.

No need to lose our courage, all have/is Buddha Nature.

A qualified teacher (doesn't need to be the highest of high teachers, just someone qualified that you connect with) can certainly check you if you are going in the "bliss seeking" direction. Hell, close Dharma brothers and sisters can (and do, thankfully) do that.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by jundo cohen »

I find a tangled discussion like this a hindrance to realization. especially in a thread devoted to what is true "in Zen" where such intellectual pursuits are frowned upon as obstruction.** Perhaps I just come from a "keep it simple and stupid" corner of the Mahayana. Otherwise, it becomes like someone searching for their own eyeball, and getting lost instead in tangled discussions of what is an eye, ancient ophthalmology texts,what is a true or false eye, what color were the Buddha's eyes, would a Buddha where glasses, what is seeing in the dark, what is an abiding eye, why is an eye not a nose.

Just open the eyes and see! :ugeek:

Anyway, as part of our "simple and stupid", the corner of Zen Practice I am familiar with would speak of a radical equanimity, wholeness, vibrancy, peace and complete lack of friction with the world such that the hard borders between self and other will soften, and sometimes fully drop away. As well, all the complexity, division and friction of this world and self ... and the equanimity, wholeness, vibrancy, peace and complete lack of friction as self and other drop away ... are found and lived as one beyond one, not two. Even life and death and the passage of time and all the other contrasts and categories of life prove to be there yet never there at all.

I don't know if that is "right enlightenment" or "wrong enlightenment" or any "enlightenment" of all. I am not sure if it would meet the the approval of anyone in this thread or some long dead teacher. I am not sure if this fits someone's definition of "bliss" or not (maybe it is just semantics, but frankly it does not matter if it does or not because a priceless pearl beyond compare as it is). I just know there is little need to talk much, for such overflows in satisfaction just to be intimate thus and live thus.

Simple and stupid.

Gassho, J

** Not that such discussion does not have their place in some Traditions, with a beauty and power of their own, and that is to be celebrated. I do not say which is better or worse for people of different paths, just what is generally called a hindrance in the Zen neck of the woods, It is just that, in much of the Zen World perhaps, such intellectual pursuits are generally found to so often take one away from the goal. Perhaps we simple and stupid folk just need a general finger pointing to the moon, a basic context, and then we just go sit and find such. Too many details get in the way, much as I can drive my car becoming one with the highway and the drive, but cannot build a motor or read the schematics. Would such technical knowledge aid in appreciating the passing mountains, and that blue sky, on Route Not 2? So it is with driving Buddha!

Really, you will find books and books and pages and pages on this by Zen masters. :tongue: But seriously, most of those pages and pages will be advice to give up the categories and complex systems of thought. So many examples, such as "put down your thinking, opinions, condition, and situation, you can find your true nature." (Seung Sahn) "Put aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. ... Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha." (Dogen in Fukanzazengi).

Or Rinzai:

“Followers of the Way, even if you should master a hundred sutras and
śāstras, you’re not as good as a teacher with nothing to do. If you do master
them, you’ll regard others with contempt. Asura-like confl ict and egotisti-
cal ignorance increase the karma that leads to hell. Such was the case of
Sunakṣātra bhikku—though he understood the twelve divisions of the
teachings, he fell alive into hell. Th e great earth had no place for him. It’s better
to do nothing and take it easy. [i.e., simple and stupid]
http://info.stiltij.nl/publiek/meditati ... sasaki.pdf
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by AlexMcLeod »

My teacher has three rules for practice that may be of help.

1. Don't worry.
2. Don't intellectualize.
3. Enjoy your practice.

We keep intellectualization separate from our practice. There is a place for it, but afterward, throw it away.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

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** Not that such discussion does not have their place in some Traditions, with a beauty and power of their own, and that is to be celebrated. I do not say which is better or worse for people of different paths, just what is generally called a hindrance in the Zen neck of the woods, It is just that, in much of the Zen World perhaps, such intellectual pursuits are generally found to so often take one away from the goal. Perhaps we simple and stupid folk just need a general finger pointing to the moon, a basic context, and then we just go sit and find such. Too many details get in the way, much as I can drive my car becoming one with the highway and the drive, but cannot build a motor or read the schematics. Would such technical knowledge aid in appreciating the passing mountains, and that blue sky, on Route Not 2? So it is with driving Buddha!
And yet, you managed a big chunk of words in the attempt to tell people how wrong they are, ironic huh?

So it sounds more like you don't like or don't get the flavor of the words, rather than having an objection to words and of within themselves, as you have done just as much conceptualizing as everyone else in the thread.
Really, you will find books and books and pages and pages on this by Zen masters. :tongue: But seriously, most of those pages and pages will be advice to give up the categories and complex systems of thought.
Not remotely unique to Zen, even though Zen certainly emphasizes it. Not sure what point there is in making a statement like that in the thread though, other than to set up credentials, or declare this thread "not Zen". That would be ironic, Surely an expansive Zen view can accommodate a lightly intellectual conversation. Any meditator knows, trying to forcibly sweep away thought creates more proliferation. So a spacious Zen view (or non-view if you like word games) can withstand a talk like this, of course if you want to not participate yourself, that's up to you!
It is just that, in much of the Zen World perhaps, such intellectual pursuits are generally found to so often take one away from the goal.
Naw, there are Zen texts, you just don't like the thread, think it's not a "Zen thread", or whatever.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by jundo cohen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
And yet, you managed a big chunk of words in the attempt to tell people how wrong they are, ironic huh?

So it sounds more like you don't like or don't get the flavor of the words, rather than having an objection to words and of within themselves, you have done just as much conceptualizing as everyone else in the thread.
Hi Johnny,

As I said, Zen folks have filled bookshelves with thousands of pages telling folks to not intellectualize. It is ironic seemingly, but the fact is that almost any "Zen book" will repeat that message. In fact, this anti-intellectual theme in Zen is so well known, I am sure anyone here has heard about it so many times. If one looks closely, most of the words are directed toward emptiness, and the ultimate emptiness of words and categories to help us. The words of the Zen masters point one beyond an ordinary attempt to understand through intellectual knowledge, to more subtle knowledge.

Dogen believed in words and words, but his writing focused on "turning words" and creative or poetic expression of what is so hard to express, not analysis of categories.

It probably means that, in a thread to discuss the "Zen" meaning of something, often less is more, simple is clearer than the complex explanation, a wordless gesture holds all reality, and many things need to be left unsaid and simply experienced. Sorry, but it is so. Otherwise, it is talking about flowers, horticulture and hot houses, rather than taking in the rich Spring scent.

Some Huang Po ...

Bodhidharma said: ‘The Buddha enunciated all Dharmas in order to eliminate every vestige of conceptual thinking. If I refrained entirely from conceptual thought, what would be the use of all the Dharmas?' Attach yourselves to nothing beyond the pure Buddha-Nature which is the original source of all things. ... Ordinary people all indulge in conceptual thought based on environmental phenomena, hence they feel desire and hatred. To eliminate environmental phenomena, just put an end to your conceptual thinking. When this ceases, environmental phenomena are void; and when these are void, thought ceases. But if you try to eliminate environment without first putting a stop to conceptual thought, you will not succeed, but merely increase its power to disturb you.

...

If you now set about using your minds to seek Mind, listening to the teaching of others, and hoping to reach the goal through mere learning, when will you ever succeed? Some of the ancients had sharp minds; they no sooner heard the Doctrine proclaimed than they hastened to discard all learning. So they were called ‘Sages who, abandoning learning, have come to rest in spontaneity'. In these days people only seek to stuff themselves with knowledge and deductions, seeking everywhere for book-knowledge and calling this ‘Dharma-practice'. They do not know that so much knowledge and deduction have just the contrary effect of piling up obstacles. Merely acquiring a lot of knowledge makes you like a child who gives himself indigestion by gobbling too much curds. Those who study the Way according to the Three Vehicles are all like this. All you can call them is people who suffer from indigestion. When so-called knowledge and deductions are not digested, they become poisons, for they belong only to the plane of samsāra. In the Absolute, there is nothing at all of this kind. ... The canonical teachings of the Three Vehicles are just remedies for temporary needs. They were taught to meet such needs and so are of temporary value and differ one from another. If only this could be understood, there would be no more doubts about it. Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching suited to a certain occasion, and, being impressed by its forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable Dharma which the Tathāgata could have preached. People of our sect would never argue that there could be such a thing. We just know how to put all mental activity to rest and thus achieve tranquillity. We certainly do not begin by thinking things out and end up in perplexity.

...

Mind is the Buddha, while the cessation of conceptual thought is the Way. Once you stop arousing concepts and thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, long and short, other and self, active and passive, and suchlike, you will find that your Mind is intrinsically the Buddha ...

...

Q: If I follow this Way, and refrain from intellectual processes and conceptual thinking, shall I be certain of attaining the goal?

A: Such non-intellection is following the Way! Why this talk of attaining and not attaining? The matter is thus—by thinking of something you create an entity and by thinking of nothing you create another. Let such erroneous thinking perish utterly, and then nothing will remain for you to go seeking!


http://terebess.hu/zen/huangboBlofeld.html

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundo cohen on Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

It probably means that, in a thread to discuss the "Zen" meaning of something, often less is more, simple is clearer than the complex explanation, a wordless gesture holds all reality, and many things need to be left unsaid and simply experienced. Sorry, but it is so. Otherwise, it is talking about flowers and hot houses, rather than taking in the rich Spring scent.
It's a discussion forum, if it doesn't meet your specifications you can just not participate, which is actually the way to leave words behind on the subject. Are you willing to spend serious bandwidth talking about why we should stop talking? The more you do this, the more you dig the exact hole you are saying you want to get out of.

If you don't get the discussion that's fine, but you are in no place to credential or authorize the conversation of others.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by jundo cohen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
It probably means that, in a thread to discuss the "Zen" meaning of something, often less is more, simple is clearer than the complex explanation, a wordless gesture holds all reality, and many things need to be left unsaid and simply experienced. Sorry, but it is so. Otherwise, it is talking about flowers and hot houses, rather than taking in the rich Spring scent.
It's a discussion forum, if it doesn't meet your specifications you can just not participate, which is actually the way to leave words behind on the subject. Are you willing to spend serious bandwidth talking about why we should stop talking? The more you do this, the more you dig the exact hole you are saying you want to get out of.

If you don't get the discussion that's fine, but you are in no place to credential or authorize the conversation of others.
Hi Johnny,

I have no place to credential or authorize the conversation of others, and it is a free forum where folks can do as the please (within the TOS, of course). If you want to talk about "Zen", then talk about "Zen" to your heart's content.

I am just saying that one cannot really pierce "Zen" by talking and analyzing Zen in certain ways. This kind of talk about Zen as found in this thread may simply obscure. This is so well known, it does not need repeating by me. Otherwise it is the difference between talking about swimming and getting wet, not to mention being the water.

Kodo Sawaki:

What do we have when we truly have a grip on things as they are? Beyond-thinking [hishiryō]. Beyond-thinking doesn’t allow itself to be thought. No matter if you think so or not: things are simply as they are. ... There’s no buddha outside of practice, and no teaching except for beyond-thinking – those are Master Dôgen’s essential principles.

...

Ideas are based on how things would stand if everything were already settled. The buddha-dharma is about that which hasn!t settled yet. Things are still in motion.

Religion isn’t an idea. It’s practice.

Don’t get lost in thoughts about the buddha-dharma.

You can express reality completely freely with words. Yet these words are not in themselves reality. If reality were in the words themselves, we would burn our tongue whenever we said “fire”. And whenever we talked about wine, we would get drunk. In reality, it isn’t so easy.

What isn’t real is useless, no matter what we call it. And no matter how we use theories, we don’t make any progress through them. Words are nothing more than words.


Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by dharmagoat »

Some wonderful quotes, Jundo.
:anjali:

Johnny, make him post more.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

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am just saying that one cannot really pierce "Zen" by talking and analyzing Zen in certain ways. This kind of talk about Zen as found in this thread may simply obscure. This is so well known, it does not need repeating by me. Otherwise it is the difference between talking about swimming and getting wet, not to mention being the water.
Yes, obviously words are not realization. Regardless, we find ourselves here with you quoting people and lecturing about not talking. If this stuff is so, and you have nothing to lecture about, then just stop talking. Everyone here understands words are not realization, and understands prapanca. If it doesn't need repeating, why do you feel compelled to do so? Surely silence is the better option, if you are capable of giving people space to make their own conclusions.
What isn’t real is useless, no matter what we call it. And no matter how we use theories, we don’t make any progress through them. Words are nothing more than words.
Ah, a "teaching moment" to teach something everyone here is already aware of, ironically with words.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by DGA »

jundo cohen wrote:I find a tangled discussion like this a hindrance to realization. especially in a thread devoted to what is true "in Zen" where such intellectual pursuits are frowned upon as obstruction.
Hi Jundo,

I had found this particular discussion to be particularly rewarding, because it has largely been oriented toward practice. Would you mind pointing out where this thread went wrong as an intellectual pursuit, or where it became a tangled discussion?

The repeated injunctions against seeking out bliss experiences have been a drag, but otherwise I feel enriched by this thread. Where did I go wrong?
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by AlexMcLeod »

I am not Jundo, but I'd wager a guess that he was referring to all the "what is the definition of bliss" that was going on.

It really is easier shown than said.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by AlexMcLeod »

Of course, I thought the entire purpose of these boards was intellectualization. If they are for direct practice rather than down time, then someone took a wrong turn somewhere. :jumping:
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

AlexMcLeod wrote:I am not Jundo, but I'd wager a guess that he was referring to all the "what is the definition of bliss" that was going on.

It really is easier shown than said.

Knowing a thing or two about how different Buddhist traditions define bliss/sukha, and how they don't is probably a good use of our time, I too have enjoyed the thread, and particularly got a lot from Astus' postings.

While it's true that realization can never come from only from study alone, the importance and usefulness of study shouldn't be put down with these blanket statements, some of the sentiment in this thread is bordering on a kind of evasive anti-intellectualism. It's one thing to point out that words are words (again, something everyone already knows), it's another to label conversation as being discursive because you don't like what people are saying.

If someone really feels these things are better felt than said, again, they don't need to say anything at all. The fact that they feel compelled to by definition means they have no place pointing out the same flaw in others. If you want silence and space (surely a good thing), then give the thread silence and space, if you want to talk, talk.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by jundo cohen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Yes, obviously words are not realization. Regardless, we find ourselves here with you quoting people and lecturing about not talking. If this stuff is so, and you have nothing to lecture about, then just stop talking.
Ah, it is not about silence (although sometimes it is). It is about how words and the brain are used and not used and used-not-used.

Fukanzazengi:

Think (思量) not thinking (不思量). How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. (非思量)

A comment by David Loy (in yet another Zen book!) gives a hint on the difference and sameness and difsameness of thinking not-thinking non-thinking:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=R5K ... en&f=false

Johnny, may I softly offer that perhaps your confusion "silence" / "just stop talking" (I don't believe I have used such strong words as "just stop talking" to anyone ever in any conversations with people in this Community, search as you might) with how silence and books and shouts and well turned turning words may be used to understand "Bliss in Zen" or anything really about the heart of Zen may demonstrate that you do not understand what Zen is about, even if you did briefly have some experience with a Soto Zen group years ago before turning elsewhere. This is much more subtle than "just stop talking".

The discussion here is not about how "bliss" is understood in Buddhism, but about (to quote the title) "Bliss in Zen (sukha)", and to understand that one cannot talk about it in the usual way, for usual talk is the root and branch of delusion.

And that leads to DGA's question, which I promise to respond to also ... with words and non-words in a thread I will start later today.

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundo cohen on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:46 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by AlexMcLeod »

Okay, this is harder through text without your being in my energy field.

Let go of the argument for a second, and go back to the post of mine you just quoted with an open heart. It was just an experiment, to see if I could convey through text over interwebs, so if nothing, oh well.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Johnny, may I softly offer that perhaps your confusing "silence" and "just stop talking" (I don't believe I have used such words to anyone ever) may demonstrate that you do not understand what Zen is about, even if you did briefly have some experience with a Soto Zen group years ago before turning elsewhere. This is much more subtle than "just stop talking".
I was involved formally with Zen (as in, at a Zendo) for 5 years, it was not a passing thing, even if I moved on. I also grew up practicing martial arts and meditating in a room with Bodhidharma at shomen, and so have been bowing to him since the age of 8, I still practice martial arts in which every class opens with Zazen/Mokuso and have done this uninterruptedly for 30 years now...so Zen is not as foreign a thing to me as you seem to think.

You can say what you want, and have whatever opinion you want about my own understanding of Zen, but you are just digging your own hole deeper every time you post about non-posting.

As to how have you acted to others, or what you have or haven't done, buddy that's public record and speaks for itself. How many times are going to say "never have I done x" like it's some credential? Why are you even concerned with constantly expressing how little I know about Zen? So what?

I wasn't saying you should stop talking per se, only that your commentary was pointless, if you really want to stop, then stop, that's all that's required. The point I was making is that you should either )(*& or get off the pot, if you have nothing to really say on the subject of bliss in Zen than "stop talking about it", why should anyone take that seriously?

Apparently there is something about the discursiveness here that draws you as much as everyone else.
This is much more subtle than "just stop talking".
you continually make reference to things which are subtle, but refuse to even attempt to describe those things, and claim they cannot be described, or even alluded to evidently. This may very well be so, if so though, why are you here still talking about it, other than to assert your own authority, or demonstrate my lack of it?

So )(*& or get off the pot, answer DGA, answer me, whatever, but stop with the evasions by claiming it's too subtle to explain, that is not conversation in good faith.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Bliss in Zen (sukha)

Post by jundo cohen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I was involved formally with Zen (as in, at a Zendo) for 5 years, it was not a passing thing, even if I moved on. ... you continually make reference to things which are subtle, but refuse to describe those things and claim they cannot be described.
Hi Johnny,

You can practice something for many years and not truly understand it. Even the 5000 devotees got up and walked out on the Buddha though they had been practicing for years. If it can happen to such devotees and the Buddha, sure can happen to you and some Soto Zen teacher long ago.

As as to it being something "that cannot be described", well, any Mahayana fellow knows that there are aspects which cannot ... should not and must not be described ... on this Way, for to stick them with names, categories and mental boxes causes them to lose their force or, worse, become themselves obstructions.

Here is more to educate and inform you on this before I open a thread on this later ...

http://wwzc.org/dharma-text/thinking-about-not-thinking
As to how have you acted to others, or what you have or haven't done, buddy that's public record and speaks for itself. How many times are going to say "never have I done x" like it's some credential? Why are you even concerned with constantly expressing how little I know about Zen? So what?
Well, the fact is that you can search the archives of Dharma Wheel high and low, east and west, and you will never find one instance ever, forever, in which I have used harsh words to someone, although sometimes my offering of views such as this does around strong response. In this case, I am merely raising issue with your knowledge of Zen and how you are discussing it because you are in a thread in the Zen forum discussing by the very name of the thread "X in Zen". It needs to be discussed in a Zenny way to properly address that. Did not Meido make much the same point? I believe that so many of Astus' lovely quotes that he frequently posts make just such a point.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundo cohen on Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org
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