Some questions about Shingon

nomono
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Some questions about Shingon

Post by nomono »

  • Is there some similarities with the Huayan school? How is the cosmology in Shingon described?
  • Are there treatises, commentaries, works etc. like in the Tibetan tradition (like Jewel Ornament of Liberation) that talk about the Nature of Mind, the bardos, Buddhanature etc.? In the tibetan schools there are a lot of books that directly talk about the Nature of Mind, what Enlightenment and Trikaya is (eg. Uttaratantra commentaries).They are very concise, detailed and direct. Are there similar works that talk about the alayavijnana, Jnana, Buddhanature etc? I would like to know the soteriological goal of Shingon. Mahayana schools like Zen for example are in my experience are not very into describing things like the tibetans do, therefore it can be difficult to understand what they think about the Nature of Mind etc..
  • Any books from contemporary Shingon masters/teachers/monastics in English?
  • Is there rainbow body in Shingon?
  • Is Fudo Myoo a full Buddha?
  • Is there Pureland practice in Shingon and Phowa?
  • Which are the highest Tantras of Shingon? What would be the equivalent to Dzogchen, Mahamudra or Kalachakra?
  • I dont know if you heard about the rangtong-shentong debate in the tibetan tradition, but if so, how would Shingon fit in this scheme? Would it be rather rangtong or shentong in view and approach?
  • Are there only non monastic clergy (priests) in Shingon or is there also a full vinaya system?
  • How is Buddhanature and the tathagatagarbha sutras described and defined? Are they definitive or provisional?
  • Are prayers and mantras or the liturgy in general always in Japanese or is sanskrit encouraged and practiced?
  • How does Mahavairocana fit in the scheme? Is he seen as both a Buddha, as well as a metaphor for our own primordial buddhahood?
  • Are there plans to get transmission of other tantras and practices from the Tibetans?
  • Is there something like dream yoga practice?
  • Are there also things like chakras, drops etc. in the Shingon which correspond to areas of the body?
  • Are there writings about the rebirth process thats clear as the tibetan books of the dead?
  • I see a lot of new age thingy like Shingon reiki healing, is that legitimate?
Thank you very much in advance.
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Way too many questions for me to answer. You ask about books. It was recommended to me and now I recommend the same to others: Read the first 100 pages of Hakeda's Kukai: Major Works and then read Takagi and Dreitlein's Kukai on the Philosophy of Language (if you live in Europe, send me a PM I have a few copies here and can beat the price online).

Also, Reiki has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Shingon. The Shingon Reiki stuff is not related to Shingon Buddhism. I think someone just liked the name. There are a few other groups these days that claim to be "modern versions" of Shingon. They're not.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Again, too many to answer but here is an interesting article on one strain (there were more than one) of Shingon Pure Land thought, as conceived by a medieval master named Kakuban (pdf file):

https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2291

This book by a Japanese Shingon priest is also highly recommend as a basic overview. It's also quite a bit more expensive than it was when I came across it in the early 1990s.:



As for the Huayan School, Shingon founder Kukai ranked the Huayan Scripture second-highest to his own esoteric scriptures, so he had respect for it. I don't know that one can speak of comparative cosmology between the two systems; Shingon thinks of reality in its own way and I can't do justice to the Shingon worldview in this kind of limited format.

" I would like to know the soteriological goal of Shingon.": Shingon speaks of Sokushin Jobutsu, or "Buddahood in this very body." Through manipulation of body, speech, and mind (using mantras, mudras, visualizations, ritual implements, altar spaces, and mandalas), one can become one with a Buddha or Bodhisattva through ritual technique. Shingon also has rituals for more worldly goals. There are a large number of rituals, mandalas, and esoteric texts.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by FiveSkandhas »

"Are prayers and mantras or the liturgy in general always in Japanese or is sanskrit encouraged and practiced?"

A form of Sanskrit known as Siddham (or bonji 梵字 in Japanese) was used. See for example:

http://www.visiblemantra.org/siddham.html
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Bodhiquest
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Bodhiquest »

nomono wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:27 pm
  • Is there some similarities with the Huayan school? How is the cosmology in Shingon described?
There are a lot of similarities.
  • Are there treatises, commentaries, works etc. like in the Tibetan tradition (like Jewel Ornament of Liberation) that talk about the Nature of Mind, the bardos, Buddhanature etc.? In the tibetan schools there are a lot of books that directly talk about the Nature of Mind, what Enlightenment and Trikaya is (eg. Uttaratantra commentaries).They are very concise, detailed and direct. Are there similar works that talk about the alayavijnana, Jnana, Buddhanature etc?
Shingon is 1200+ years old. There's a mountain of literature in Japanese.
  • I would like to know the soteriological goal of Shingon. Mahayana schools like Zen for example are in my experience are not very into describing things like the tibetans do, therefore it can be difficult to understand what they think about the Nature of Mind etc..
Briefly, the goal of Shingon is to attain buddhahood [in this life], to know the mind as it truly is, to attain the various kayas, etc. etc.
  • Any books from contemporary Shingon masters/teachers/monastics in English?
The small number of books specifically about Shingon that are currently available in English broadly fall into this category, bar a few exceptions.
  • Is there rainbow body in Shingon?
IDK
  • Is Fudo Myoo a full Buddha?
Depends.
  • Is there Pureland practice in Shingon and Phowa?
Yes for pure land, IDK for phowa. Stuff like phowa exists in the broader East Asian Buddhist world though.
  • Which are the highest Tantras of Shingon? What would be the equivalent to Dzogchen, Mahamudra or Kalachakra?
Briefly, that's not how it works in Shingon.
  • I dont know if you heard about the rangtong-shentong debate in the tibetan tradition, but if so, how would Shingon fit in this scheme? Would it be rather rangtong or shentong in view and approach?
I'd advise dropping the Tibetan Buddhist ideas and just exploring Shingon and taking it on its own terms. Neither the Chinese nor the Japanese discussed things called rangtong and shentong.
  • Are there only non monastic clergy (priests) in Shingon or is there also a full vinaya system?
The Shingon Risshu tradition is supposed to be extant and if so, they should, in theory, be following a full vinaya system.
  • How is Buddhanature and the tathagatagarbha sutras described and defined? Are they definitive or provisional?
Technically only the "Tantric" texts are definitive.
  • Are prayers and mantras or the liturgy in general always in Japanese or is sanskrit encouraged and practiced?
For mantras and liturgy, Japanese is standard. Some people find it valuable to know both.
  • How does Mahavairocana fit in the scheme? Is he seen as both a Buddha, as well as a metaphor for our own primordial buddhahood?
Both and more.
  • Are there plans to get transmission of other tantras and practices from the Tibetans?
No because Shingon is a complete system.
  • Is there something like dream yoga practice?
IDK
  • Are there also things like chakras, drops etc. in the Shingon which correspond to areas of the body?
Yes.
  • Are there writings about the rebirth process thats clear as the tibetan books of the dead?
IDK
  • I see a lot of new age thingy like Shingon reiki healing, is that legitimate?
No. Neither are nonsense like "Kukai Energy" lol.
There are very tenuous and suggestive links between Shingon and Reiki, as in indirect links that many other Japanese practices with esoteric aspects also have with Shingon, but unless someone does a deep dive into this subject it's likely not possible to tell. Any links aren't going to be very deep or strong anyway though.

Thank you very much in advance.
In general, the few books on Shingon currently available in English are good places to start learning more through a combination of primary texts and good explanation. The first 100 pages of Kukai: Major Works is absolutely the place to start with, afterwards the other books are also good. I quite like Shingon Buddhism: Theory and Practice. The written resource situation is unfortunately pretty poor for now so it's difficult to access a great deal of information unless you can read Japanese, or are connected with a teacher.
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Genjo Conan »

The Shingon Risshu tradition is supposed to be extant and if so, they should, in theory, be following a full vinaya system.
I could be wrong about this, but my understanding is that, the same as the other Japanese Buddhist schools, the Risshu school was forcibly secularized during the Meiji-era haibutsu kishaku "reforms" (for lack of a better word). There are individual Japanese priests or temples that follow the Dharmaguptaka vinaya but, to the best of my knowledge, the Dharmaguptaka lineage itself has died out in Japan.
Malcolm
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:16 pm
The Shingon Risshu tradition is supposed to be extant and if so, they should, in theory, be following a full vinaya system.
I could be wrong about this, but my understanding is that, the same as the other Japanese Buddhist schools, the Risshu school was forcibly secularized during the Meiji-era haibutsu kishaku "reforms" (for lack of a better word). There are individual Japanese priests or temples that follow the Dharmaguptaka vinaya but, to the best of my knowledge, the Dharmaguptaka lineage itself has died out in Japan.
Long ago, as a result of Saicho's Mahāyāna reformation.
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Queequeg
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:52 pm Long ago, as a result of Saicho's Mahāyāna reformation.
That is terribly misleading. You are ignoring 1200 years of history.

Monks, including those in the Tendai order continued to observe much of the Vinaya, including celibacy, for centuries, up to the time that Oda Nobunaga burned the whole mountain down. The Bodhisattva Precepts did not supplant vinaya. Generally, they were in addition.

I would argue Shinran, taking Mappo seriously, who took a wife and had children, was a significant turning point since Shin became the most popular form of Buddhism in Japan over the next few centuries. The regulation of Buddhism under the Tokugawa Shogunate really strangled the monastic institutions of vitality. The persecution Genjo refers to above I think was the nail in the coffin.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:52 pm Long ago, as a result of Saicho's Mahāyāna reformation.
That is terribly misleading. You are ignoring 1200 years of history.

Monks, including those in the Tendai order continued to observe much of the Vinaya, including celibacy, for centuries, up to the time that Oda Nobunaga burned the whole mountain down. The Bodhisattva Precepts did not supplant vinaya. Generally, they were in addition.
What are you talking about? Saicho cancelled bhikṣu ordination, calling for it to be replaced by a ten precept Mahāyāna ordination:
The Hossō school was in charge of the Bureau of Monks at that time, and so in a position to block Saichō's writings from reaching the court. In frustration, the normally reticent and humble Saichō became more extreme in his positions, until finally the noise reached the court in spite of the Bureau's attempts to cut him off. From an initial position advocating some minor changes in the ordination process, Saichō came to request that Mt. Hiei be declared a solely Mahāyāna temple exempt from having to use the Hīnayāna ordination precepts of the Ritsu.or Vinaya school. He proposed that, instead, they take their ordination from a Mahāyāna scripture, the Fan wang ching, or ‘Sūtra of Brahma's Net’. These precepts are referred to as the Bodhisattva precepts, and had always functioned as a complement to the traditional monastic precepts; they were never designed to replace them. Thus, the establishment found Saichō's position entirely inadmissible.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10 ... 3100436835

Groner's book makes it pretty clear too.
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by karmanyingpo »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:54 am "Are prayers and mantras or the liturgy in general always in Japanese or is sanskrit encouraged and practiced?"

A form of Sanskrit known as Siddham (or bonji 梵字 in Japanese) was used. See for example:

http://www.visiblemantra.org/siddham.html
As I understand any Sanskrit that is used tends to be heavily Japonized in pronunciation. For example svaahaa in Sanskrit becomes sowaka. I believe, this is because Sanskrit was first roughly written into Chinese characters that roughly fit their pronunciation and then those characters were pronounced in a slightly different way in Japanese and that of course over time has changed further.

Siddham is striclty speaking not a form of Sanskrit but rather a writing system for Sanskrit. It is closely related to Tibetan script, Bengali, etc.

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Queequeg
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:14 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:52 pm Long ago, as a result of Saicho's Mahāyāna reformation.
That is terribly misleading. You are ignoring 1200 years of history.

Monks, including those in the Tendai order continued to observe much of the Vinaya, including celibacy, for centuries, up to the time that Oda Nobunaga burned the whole mountain down. The Bodhisattva Precepts did not supplant vinaya. Generally, they were in addition.
What are you talking about? Saicho cancelled bhikṣu ordination, calling for it to be replaced by a ten precept Mahāyāna ordination:
The Hossō school was in charge of the Bureau of Monks at that time, and so in a position to block Saichō's writings from reaching the court. In frustration, the normally reticent and humble Saichō became more extreme in his positions, until finally the noise reached the court in spite of the Bureau's attempts to cut him off. From an initial position advocating some minor changes in the ordination process, Saichō came to request that Mt. Hiei be declared a solely Mahāyāna temple exempt from having to use the Hīnayāna ordination precepts of the Ritsu.or Vinaya school. He proposed that, instead, they take their ordination from a Mahāyāna scripture, the Fan wang ching, or ‘Sūtra of Brahma's Net’. These precepts are referred to as the Bodhisattva precepts, and had always functioned as a complement to the traditional monastic precepts; they were never designed to replace them. Thus, the establishment found Saichō's position entirely inadmissible.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10 ... 3100436835

Groner's book makes it pretty clear too.
This discussion really doesn't belong in this thread, but, again, more nuanced than you make it out.

Saicho envisioned a very strict code of behavior on Mt. Hiei, and in practice, monks were expected to observe the good behavior expected of monks throughout the Buddhist world. In the end he came around to a view that that monks who left the mountain to serve functions in society ought to take the full Vinaya precepts. How that played out in practice is another story - but in general, it wasn't as if all of a sudden monks had no code of conduct. And moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.

As I was saying, the process was gradual one that played out over centuries.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pm

This discussion really doesn't belong in this thread, but, again, more nuanced than you make it out.

Sure it does, since the full bhikṣu ordination only survives in Shingon.
Saicho envisioned a very strict code of behavior on Mt. Hiei, and in practice, monks were expected to observe the good behavior expected of monks throughout the Buddhist world. In the end he came around to a view that that monks who left the mountain to serve functions in society ought to take the full Vinaya precepts.
Not according to all sources I have read on the issue.
How that played out in practice is another story - but in general, it wasn't as if all of a sudden monks had no code of conduct. And moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.
Not him personally, but the debate he started with Nara establishment would eventually have the effect.
As I was saying, the process was gradual one that played out over centuries.
I didn't say other wise, nevertheless you might find this of interest:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44362410?r ... b_contents

Even though Saicho's reformed ordination was not instituted in his lifetime, it was instituted within days of his death. This set the stage for the eventual decline of bhikṣu ordination and the Ritsu school, so that within 500 years, there were no bhikṣus left in Japan. Eison revived bhikṣu ordination by ordaining himself since there was no valid ordination lineage left in Shingon.
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Queequeg
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pm Saicho envisioned a very strict code of behavior on Mt. Hiei, and in practice, monks were expected to observe the good behavior expected of monks throughout the Buddhist world. In the end he came around to a view that that monks who left the mountain to serve functions in society ought to take the full Vinaya precepts.
Not according to all sources I have read on the issue.
I made a few statements there. Are you disputing everything or just some things or one thing?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pm Saicho envisioned a very strict code of behavior on Mt. Hiei, and in practice, monks were expected to observe the good behavior expected of monks throughout the Buddhist world. In the end he came around to a view that that monks who left the mountain to serve functions in society ought to take the full Vinaya precepts.
Not according to all sources I have read on the issue.
I made a few statements there. Are you disputing everything or just some things or one thing?
I am disputing your contention that Saicho's abandonment of bhikṣu ordination did not lead to the inevitable decline of bhikṣu ordination in Japan.
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pmAnd moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.
Well, as the founder of his own sect, he does have that power in his own house:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aoyKh1Ynax
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:12 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pmAnd moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.
Well, as the founder of his own sect, he does have that power in his own house:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aoyKh1Ynax
Actually, he didn't. That was why he was petitioning the government for permission to set up an ordination platform, which was granted.

My point was, even as Tendai monks may not have been receiving the Vinaya precepts, they were still expected to observe very strict codes of conduct. Maybe I should have been clear but I was trying to point out that monks were still observing strict codes of conduct long after Saicho, both in Tendai and in Japan in general, disputing Malcolm's terse and misleading remark.

Malcolm, as we all know, is just argumentative most of the time.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:56 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:35 pm

Not according to all sources I have read on the issue.
I made a few statements there. Are you disputing everything or just some things or one thing?
I am disputing your contention that Saicho's abandonment of bhikṣu ordination did not lead to the inevitable decline of bhikṣu ordination in Japan.
Then you're arguing with a straw man. I'm disputing your simplistic remark above that credits Saicho with the disappearance of the Vinaya precepts in Japan.

BTW, the article you cited above refers to a fellow who self ordained because he wasn't happy that the ordinations that were continuing to be given were not serious enough for him.

Again, it was a while, and the result of a lot of steps by a lot of people that finally ended the vinaya ordinations in Japan. Sure, Saicho and Tendai had a part, but its misleading to say that Saicho was the reason it died out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:45 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:12 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pmAnd moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.
Well, as the founder of his own sect, he does have that power in his own house:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aoyKh1Ynax
Actually, he didn't. That was why he was petitioning the government for permission to set up an ordination platform, which was granted.

My point was, even as Tendai monks may not have been receiving the Vinaya precepts, they were still expected to observe very strict codes of conduct. Maybe I should have been clear but I was trying to point out that monks were still observing strict codes of conduct long after Saicho, both in Tendai and in Japan in general, disputing Malcolm's terse and misleading remark.
My remark was not at all misleading. It was indeed terse. I made no comment on the strictness, or otherwise, of Tendai monks. That was your trip. For example, Hindu monks have very strict discipline, but they are not bhikṣus.

Malcolm, as we all know, is just argumentative most of the time.
In fact, you raised the argument, not me.
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:50 pm Then you're arguing with a straw man. I'm disputing your simplistic remark above that credits Saicho with the disappearance of the Vinaya precepts in Japan.
They lead to that, most certainly.
BTW, the article you cited above refers to a fellow who self ordained because he wasn't happy that the ordinations that were continuing to be given were not serious enough for him.
It is not that they were not serious ordinations, they were pure shams that were not carried out according to the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya procedures. By this point, Ritsu had already died out, etc.
Again, it was a while, and the result of a lot of steps by a lot of people that finally ended the vinaya ordinations in Japan. Sure, Saicho and Tendai had a part, but its misleading to say that Saicho was the reason it died out.
Pretty much, as the most important monastic establishment in close proximity to the capital, Kyoto, the absence of bhikṣu ordination there most certainly was the principle factor that lead to the decline of bhikṣu ordination in Japan during the Heian era.
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Re: Some questions about Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:45 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:12 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:13 pmAnd moreover, Saicho hardly had the influence to be able to bring anything like Vinaya ordination to a halt.
Well, as the founder of his own sect, he does have that power in his own house:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aoyKh1Ynax
Actually, he didn't.
Supposedly, right after his death, this bodhisattvaśīla was implemented over vinaya specifically. So did he or didn't he? He seems to have done something that was only accomplished after his death, so certainly the effort is shared between some amount of people (i.e. his students etc.).

As I understand, in Japanese Buddhism there is a formal distinction between monks and priests, but that in practice "monk" is normally used regardless, so that is often a difference only in theory. The Tendai "monks," as I understand it, are priests of Tang esoterica in the Japanese context but not "monks." Do you think this is a wrong way to look at things?

On terms of their conduct, I imagine they were as good and bad as any other sample of the monastic populace of the time, which I imagine isn't a controversial opinion.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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