Lineage

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Lineage

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

NeonPhoenixNeko wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:09 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:58 am
NeonPhoenixNeko wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:22 am Additionally, it strikes me as odd that Samantabhadra gets so much glorification in these two sutras / tantras. In past Mahayana sutras he is usually considered important, but never to the extent of being the 'essance of the mind of all buddhas' and whatnot. Perhaps this is merely an evolution of thought in early tantra leading to its later forms. But I wonder if it is the very same Samantabhadra mentioned in the Past Vows Sutra among others, there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer around this though.
Samantabhadra the Bodhisattva from the Avatamsaka is not the same as Samantabhadra the primordial Buddha, if that is part of the confusion.
Yes, that is what my confusion is. In the two main Shingon sutras Samantabhadra is mentioned as a bodhisattva, while still being glorified in other parts by various terms such as Vajrasattva-Samantabhadra, The mind-ground of Samantabhadra, etc. I am trying to understand the distinction between the two, if any, within these two texts.
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They are not the same figure at all, as far as I know, simply the same name. I know nothing of Shingon though, and am basing that on Tibetan Vajrayana/Mahayana traditions. As far as I know the only similarity is the name.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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如傑優婆塞
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Re: Lineage

Post by 如傑優婆塞 »

Also, are you implying that I ask him rather than asking on the forum..?
Remember this? He's here as a member who goes by 'Eijo' (Rev. Eijo) but is more active on that FB page. The choice is yours :smile:
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Lineage

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

如傑優婆塞 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:14 am
Also, are you implying that I ask him rather than asking on the forum..?
Remember this? He's here as a member who goes by 'Eijo' (Rev. Eijo) but is more active on that FB page. The choice is yours :smile:
I will do some more personal research firat qnd see if I come across some answers, although I imagine I'll only start having more! XD
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Bodhiquest
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Re: Lineage

Post by Bodhiquest »

jake wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:03 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:13 pm
Bodhiquest wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:37 am

On the contrary; unfortunately only a handful people in the entire world teach Shingon to laypeople openly.
I thought Shingon was largely a tantric lay lineage?

Do you mean teach to UNINITIATED laypeople openly?
You're correct. There is no vinaya in Shingon (or other Japanese traditions) so technically there are no monastics. As Seishin mentions I think most just sort of understand that this is implied when writing about laypeople or ordained.

That said, I'd be very interested to hear more from Bodhiquest on what he means by "teach Shingon to laypeople openly." Rather surprising statement!
Laypeople in the sense Seishin explained. So basically if you are not ordained and want to have access to anything more than some basic practices, then your options are extremely limited. In most Tibetan Buddhist groups, from what I understand, you have programs in place to get into actual Vajrayana practices after some time and familiarity. In Shingon you won't find that kind of thing happen in temples; you'd have to find a teacher willing to open those teachings up and slowly progress there.
NeonPhoenixNeko wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:02 am
Bodhiquest wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:37 am
Shingon seems far more accessible than the tibetan traditions.
On the contrary; unfortunately only a handful people in the entire world teach Shingon to laypeople openly.
Interesting, what about the books published on Shingon then? BDK released a book on Shingon Texts mostly written by Kukai, are these sorts of teachings not supposed to be taught to uninitiated?
I'm not sure what the orthodox stance on reading the Mahavairocana and Vajrasekhara Sutra/Tantra is. However for Kukai's works and the like, all of what you can find in English is also easily available in Japanese bookshops. In those texts you'll see discussions of philosophy and thought, but nothing about the actual practices themselves.
Also when I say more accesible, I mean moreso that it's less confusing to navigate. There are several sects with different viewpoints, a ton of history involved, and even politics. When I read anything on the Tibetan Vajrayana it's like another language, with a handful of terms I'm unfamiliar with! Shingon just seems a bit more straightforward in terms of lineage and philosophy.
Ah, I see. I'd guess that the reason for this is that only a tiny amount of Shingon literature is available in English. There might indeed be more doctrinal cohesion, however, as the sub-sects of Shingon appear not to differ on anything but some very specific points.
The biggest problem is what I mentioned above: with Tibetan Buddhism sure, you can get super confused; but if you want to clear up that confusion and learn from a teacher as you are, it's relatively easy to do, generally speaking. These are things that cannot be understood only intellectually, after all. Shingon however has a minuscule presence overseas, and in almost all cases the "real stuff" is behind the walls of ordination.
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Lineage

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

Indeed that is rather unfortunate. I am slowly learning tibetan tradition so I ssuppose it's just a matter of immersing myself and getting down to the books :p.

At the very least I think Shingon has some great philosophy, which goes far deeper than most other Japanese sects (although that may be biased to say), so I will take these limited teachings gratefully and learn what I can. :bow:

In any case I've found it a great introduction to concepts such as dharmakaya, the syllable Ah, the significance of the vajra, etc, all to be found within tibetan traditions.
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Re: Lineage

Post by crazy-man »

You're correct. There is no vinaya in Shingon (or other Japanese traditions) so technically there are no monastics.
That isn´t correct, There was a "Revival" of the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya in Tokugawa Japan and thera are a small group of Mulasarvastivada Vinaya Monks at Shinbessho and Ninnaji (Omuro sect)

Shayne Clarke - Miscellaneous Musings on Mūlasarvāstivāda Monks
Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya Revival in Tokugawa Japan
https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2884
https://www.academia.edu/24783761/_Misc ... gawa_Japan._

Clarke Shayne - Mulasarvastivada Vinaya Revival in Tokugawa Japan (JJRS 06)


Mūlasarvāstivāda School in Japan by Vira Avalokita, Sthera
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... l_in_Japan
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