Queequeg wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:01 pm
BTW, the article you cited above refers to a fellow who self ordained because he wasn't happy that the ordinations that were continuing to be given were not serious enough for him.
It is not that they were not serious ordinations, they were pure shams that were not carried out according to the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya procedures. By this point, Ritsu had already died out, etc.
That's what Eizon et al. seemed to think, and the article quotes a colorful remark about people running around an ordination platform. I'm going to take that with a grain of salt.
Ordination is as serious as one takes it. All the ritual formalities could be observed, and every effort made to impress the seriousness of the vows. Buddhist history is still littered with monks behaving badly even in places where we can assume ordination is the real deal.
The fact is that the bhikṣu ordination lineage in Japan was broken. Generally, Vinaydharas in India, Tibet, China, etc., would not accept such a lineage as valid.
Pretty much, as the most important monastic establishment in close proximity to the capital, Kyoto, the absence of bhikṣu ordination there most certainly was the principle factor that lead to the decline of bhikṣu ordination in Japan during the Heian era.
That is a good point. But you're assuming a certain set of assumptions about the state of the monastic institutions and monastics in Japan in the Heian period. Are you depending on other sources for this position? Are you arguing that the formality of ordination doesn't qualify as the continuation of vinaya ordination?
An ordination rite depends on the rite being carried out correctly, by a sthavira who has been a monk for ten years, and a quorum of other senior monks. It is a complicated procedure, where the vows are gone through in blocks, and the aspirant accepting them. If it is not carried out correctly, it isn't valid.
In addition, in no school does one become a fully ordained bikṣu in one day, other than the merit ordinations most Thai men undergo. Generally, one is ordained a śrāmana, a novice, then later, a bhikṣu, after living as novice under the direction of preceptor for some years.
"...people running around an ordination platform." I think this not merely hyperbole.
I can't site to a particular article to dispute you - just that from what I know of Buddhist history in Japan, Buddhism was still a robust and vital force in Japan up until the Tokugawa period with many robust monastic communities throughout the country.
But not, unfortunately, the community of bhikṣus. Monastic /= bhikṣus.