in the weeds here

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Seishin
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Seishin »

haha wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:42 pm
what words in the Lotus sutra inspired Zhi Yi to produce a whole new Buddhist school.
Zhiyi’s confession before his death might indicate that he was carrying out his teacher’s instructions/teachings.
Yes. This is important to note.
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Re: in the weeds here

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Further relevant to 10 Realms, specifically to our practice:

Page.129 of Lankavatara Sutra. The version I have: https://terebess.hu/english/lankavatara ... df#page308



“Mahamati, things do not give rise to themselves. This does meant by the emptiness of mutual exclusion.
not mean they do not arise—unless one is in samadhi.
what is meant by non-arising. The absence of self-existence is what is meant by non-arising. What lacks self-existence is momentary and in continuous flux and manifests different states of existence but without possessing any existence of its own. Thus, whatever exists is devoid of self-existence.


It begs the question, besides One Samadhi, what mind should we arise?
It’s eye blinking.
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

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Seishin wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:08 pm Forgive me if I format this wrong. It's been a long time since I posted here...
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am so i just would like to know from what text do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...
If you're looking for a quote saying "there are 10 Worlds" you won't find it, accept for passing reference to Ten Worlds in chapter 9 (page 166 BDK, page 182 Kosei). This passing reference may be simply a translation thing, so I wouldn't put much weight into it. In reality, the 10 worlds is an interpretation and understanding, which is why it is unique to the Lotus Schools, through Zhiyi. As I said on my website, the 10 Worlds comprise of the standard 6 Realms, with the addition of Sravaka, Pratyeka, Bodhisattva and Buddha. These are all mentioned in the Lotus Sutra, but not as 10 Worlds, or as 4 higher realms for the latter etc. This is because it is an interpretation of the text (I'm not even sure if this is Zhiyi's interpretation or by others). I think what is important to stress here, is that these 10 are described by Zhiyi as mental realms, not realms that we are born in to (although we are reborn in the 6, we are not reborn in the 4). The reasons of including the 4, and for viewing these as mental realms are manifold and based on numerous texts, not just the Lotus Sutra. However, one clue was mentioned by Q...
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am Q said it is derived from nyo ze so and that piece in the Lotus sutra...but this was always a piece to do with Sunyata.
According to the Lotus Sutra, all beings possess these 10 Suchnesses, including Buddhas. Therefore we possess the same qualities of the Buddha, just as the Buddha possess the same qualities as us, and all beings in the 10 realms. This is the connection I think you are missing

The further connection between the 10 Worlds and the 10 Suchnesses is seen in the Three Realms of Existence, again on my website.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am Never before Tien Tai the great did anyone discuss this as a ten world ichinen sanzen anything
No, that is because it was created by Zhiyi.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am other wise it is just theory made up by some guy and hung the Lotus sutra on it to give it some sort of weight in who they are presenting it to...
It is a theory, but it does have basis on scripture, but it is an interpretation. Like Malcolm pointed out, theories appear in all schools from numerous masters. That doesn't mean they are not important, but it does mean they are open to debate and disagreement.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am it's odd but i believe Tien Tai the great was handing in some theory to the emperor at his request but died before finishing it.
Ichinen sanzen is an important theory within Tiantai/Tendai Buddhism, and has numerous connections with other doctrine and practices. Personally I believe the most important doctrine in Tendai is the Three Truths, which I feel can be seen echoed throughout Tiantai/Tendai Buddhism, including within ichinen sanzen. However I'm sure there are others who'll disagree.

I think, also, it is important to understand that the exact number isn't important here. The importance is in the mutual possession, which is from the Lotus Sutra, Hoben chapter.

I think, again, I must stress that Tiantai doesn't just base his understanding of the Lotus Sutra on just the Lotus Sutra. This is why I feel it is important to have a good understanding of Buddha Dharma to be able to understand both the Lotus Sutra and Zhiyi. Without that foundation, we are lost in a thicket of views.

Gassho,
Seishin
ok thank you...but it solves nothing.

I would like to know where it comes from ...It is supposed to be based on something in the Lotus Sutra ...and yet no one will type the words...
How do you think i feel about Master Nichiren Daishonin , Bodhisattva Jogyo and now this huge question...Where is the text that p[roves it is derived from the Lotus Sutra...

all your post does is reinforce the belief with no substance of textual evidence it comes from Lotus sutra...One should never say something is said by Buddha when for sure Buddha never said any such thing...

I'll go one further...there is nothing in the Lotus sutra that could allude to ichinen sanzen.... ...


with the Lotus sutra as a good house keeping seal of approval...people can say anything...


IS someone is lying about it having any relation to anything said in The Lotus Sutra?????

...if you wish to teach me and show me where I'm wrong...i would be indebted to you..like for real...for i now need hoops to jump through in order to carry on...
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Seishin wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:08 pm
No, that is because it was created by Zhiyi.


Gassho,
Seishin
ok so you are an honest one...

but why say it comes from the Lotus Sutra..and then ends up as some kind of big ultra buddhist realization ...entering Japan and confusing the whole issue with made up stuff unrelated to what Buddha taught...something that came from a guy who needed to say it is from Lotus sutra ...
i mean really now....is that it...we accept stories that are made up ...

but hopefully you can settle this ...type the lines that are in sutras that show ichinen sanzen...otherwise it is a non buddhist teaching...
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Re: in the weeds here

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I have given you the answer. I'm not sure how to make it clearer. It is based on an understanding of the Lotus Sutra. The components can be found in the Lotus Sutra. I've shown you those components. I'm not sure what else you are looking for or how I can help you
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Re: in the weeds here

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A few of things to ponder here;
1. who has said that ichinen sanzen was taught by the Buddha? If they did say that they were wrong. All texts I've studied said it was taught by Zhiyi based on the Lotus Sutra.

2. "Based on" is important here. Star wars is based on The Hidden Fortress. You'll even find scenes and dialogue in Star Wars that was taken straight from The Hidden Fortress. However, you won't find Star Wars in the Hidden Fortress. You'll find components, but not the movie.

3. Does it need to have been spoken by the Buddha for it to have any merit? Take for example the daimoku. You won't find it in a single Sutra.
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Seishin wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:26 pm A few of things to ponder here;
1. who has said that ichinen sanzen was taught by the Buddha? If they did say that they were wrong. All texts I've studied said it was taught by Zhiyi based on the Lotus Sutra.

2. "Based on" is important here. Star wars is based on The Hidden Fortress. You'll even find scenes and dialogue in Star Wars that was taken straight from The Hidden Fortress. However, you won't find Star Wars in the Hidden Fortress. You'll find components, but not the movie.

3. Does it need to have been spoken by the Buddha for it to have any merit? Take for example the daimoku. You won't find it in a single Sutra.
well star wars a side....lol....my god man did you just use that ....

The Daimoku is the title of the lotus sutra...

i don;t think you can actually cite an example..one line in the Lotus sutra that even alludes to ichinen sanzen..

but hey i shall leave you to it...

it's not my cup of tea to bash another man's religion...

nuff said...

unless you can recall a line or two from the sutra ...

it might alleviate the hoops i have to go through in order to believe in Nichiren Daishonin...why would He use something that is not kosher to the Lotus ....

I'm convinced He did His best to show corruption and misuse of the name Buddha and title Lotus Sutra...

and left a practice that allows for what ever label you want to impute on Buddha , the entity of MyoHo RenGe Kyo...but i know i have learned so much and have had my eyes opened so much from this practice...the (omits what ever)

have a nice day
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Re: in the weeds here

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Well let's think for a second; the daimoku isn't the sanskrit title of the text. It is a translation, and many scholars suggest, not a good one. You'll also not find a single line in the sutra that suggests chanting the title will bring... well, anything. It was Zhiyi, the guy you've completely and utterly ripped apart and insulted in the Nichiren forum, that said the essence of the Lotus Sutra is found in the title. And it was Nichiren who suggested chanting the title as a practice of the Lotus Sutra. Therefore, using your own logic, the daimoku was made up and completely useless BS.

No, you will not find a single line in the Lotus Sutra that teaches ichinen sanzen because it was a philosophy created by Zhiyi, based on the Lotus Sutra. A fact that has been repeated here and on my website. You'll find the aspects and philosophy underpinning it, not just from the Lotus Sutra, but from other texts too, again this has been given to you. And yet, you still want someone to prove that ichinen sanzen is taught by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra. This has been a rather bizarre return to this group for me.
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Re: in the weeds here

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:good:
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Re: in the weeds here

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Seishin wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:56 am Well let's think for a second; the daimoku isn't the sanskrit title of the text. It is a translation, and many scholars suggest, not a good one. You'll also not find a single line in the sutra that suggests chanting the title will bring... well, anything. It was Zhiyi, the guy you've completely and utterly ripped apart and insulted in the Nichiren forum, that said the essence of the Lotus Sutra is found in the title. And it was Nichiren who suggested chanting the title as a practice of the Lotus Sutra. Therefore, using your own logic, the daimoku was made up and completely useless BS.

No, you will not find a single line in the Lotus Sutra that teaches ichinen sanzen because it was a philosophy created by Zhiyi, based on the Lotus Sutra. A fact that has been repeated here and on my website. You'll find the aspects and philosophy underpinning it, not just from the Lotus Sutra, but from other texts too, again this has been given to you. And yet, you still want someone to prove that ichinen sanzen is taught by the Buddha in the Lotus Sutra. This has been a rather bizarre return to this group for me.
I apologize for offending Ten Tai the Great. It's my way ...i'm sort of gruff and have no filters.

had a huge think on this and realize from what you said there would be no Nichiren chanting practice if not for Zhi Yi ...

the whole ten worlds thing is not exactly some notorious maligning of buddhism and the Lotus sutra...like art people get different inspirations...

sometimes i get caught up in the weeds and it is a struggle...

anyway i'm grateful you put your heart into trying to get me to see what is happening...

you do realize my religion was shattered with the gakki and shoshu divorce...it was brutal and the scar tissue is still there.

thank you for your patience and efforts...it helps a lot...
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Re: in the weeds here

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I have thought long and hard on what i ended up doing here at DW...slandering Ten Tai the Great.

Reading the opening of the eyes one see Nichiren followed Ten Tai the Great .

Here is a passage from that gosho

from:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... Part%20Two
The eighth volume of The Annotations on “The Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra” comments as follows: “In this passage, three types of arrogance are cited. First, there is a section that exposes people of mistaken views. This represents [the arrogance and presumption of] lay people. Next, there is a section that exposes the arrogance and presumption of members of the Buddhist clergy. Third is a section that exposes the arrogance and presumption of those who pretend to be sages. Of these three, the first can be endured. The second exceeds the first, and the third is the most formidable of all. This is because the second and third ones are increasingly harder to recognize for what they really are.”


Now one can see where i fit in here...I can anyway.

This is where ignorance causes great karma...and hurt...

I reacted to something that i understood totally incorrectly.

concepts of sutras and their beginnings and then an attempt to define someone as great as Zhiyi to just be some charleton.
Not to mention jumping to conclusion that anything Buddhist that was not directly Indian by nature is a corruption.

there is no apology...the karma is done...the effects are already there.

i did learn something though ...besides jumping to conclusions...

Seishin wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:56 am Well let's think for a second; the daimoku isn't the sanskrit title of the text. It is a translation, and many scholars suggest, not a good one. You'll also not find a single line in the sutra that suggests chanting the title will bring... well, anything.
Nam Myoho RenGe Kyo is not of Tendai...It is pointing to something other obviously..
Also it is used as a chant....

something i never knew.

if there was any good that came out of this discourse for me it is that and what i am.
Last edited by Minobu on Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Seishin
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Re: in the weeds here

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I'm glad you've been able to come to this conclusion
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

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Seishin wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:24 am I'm glad you've been able to come to this conclusion
You have no idea how much this has helped me.

I learned that Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo is something other than the title of the Lotus Sutra.

I am sure it the name of the Buddha whom Nichiren speaks of.

also the resopect Nichiren has for Zhiyi is incredible...i never realized how much He learnt from Tendai and that the religion i base my life on and try to understand is all TenDai based...

that is incredible...

thank you..

i learn from slander...it's a hard road to take but it is a road common to some of us...

we pay a very expensive price to learn this way...
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