Goma ritual

[Kajmak383]

Good evening,

I was wondering, what the fire ritual in the Tendai tradition consist of?
Why has Tendai a esoteric ritual that comes from Shingon?
What does it represent?

Thank you

[Caoimhghín]

Why has Tendai a esoteric ritual that comes from Shingon?

I think it actually comes from India, way back.

[Matylda]

Good evening,

I was wondering, what the fire ritual in the Tendai tradition consist of?
Why has Tendai a esoteric ritual that comes from Shingon?
What does it represent?

Thank you

I do not think that it has any relation with shingon, probably they have their own lineage of transmission. By the way it is not only ritual it is actual practice. However as everything in secret mantra it is not discussed in open or in public. As far as I know from tendai teacher, it has 5 levels. One may compare to outer inner secret etc. it goes in pretty advanced way.
to know about goma one has to practice it at tendai monastery in an extensive way, not just ritual observed in public temples.

[Caoimhghín]

Good evening,

I was wondering, what the fire ritual in the Tendai tradition consist of?
Why has Tendai a esoteric ritual that comes from Shingon?
What does it represent?

Thank you

I do not think that it has any relation with shingon, probably they have their own lineage of transmission.

Venerable Kūkai and Venerable Saichō were initiated into a tantra they received in China, AFAIK. Later in a Tendai context, Venerable Ennin (I think) incorporated another tantra into mix that he also received from China.

I don't know a lot about this though, and the more I say the more likely I am to say something wrong. Indeed, I did, and already had to edit this message.

The tantra that Shingon and Tendai have in common, I do no know it's name, but the documentary A Pilgrimage to Koyasan, the narrator identifies a main teaching as the "nonduality of the two maṇḍalas," the two in question being the vajradhātu maṇḍala and the garbhakośadhātu maṇḍala. I don't know if the narration was written in consultation with the Shingon monks they interviewed for the project (and it is a very nice documentary) or if the narration was written by an academic Buddhologist.

I think they might actually be two intertwined tantras practiced together, but I don't know.

[Caoimhghín]

Earlier accidentally said Ven Kūkai was Ven Saichō's teacher. I was misremembering their relationship. I don't know if one was ever the other's formal guru. Sources say they are "friends."

Ven Kūkai gave abhiṣeka to and initiated Ven Saichō into the tantra he received from China, according to the preface to this Ryūichi Abé article. The article can be viewed for free, if one is willing to sign in via a Google account. It presents their relationship as very much student-teacher, but this sort of characterization is absent from sources like wikipedia. I'm not altogether sure what their relationship was.

I found what I remembered reading as to the detail about Ven Ennin.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=12538&p=162821&hil ... in#p162769

Shingon and Tendai have the same transmission from China via Ven Huìguǒ --> Ven Kūkai --> Ven Saichō.

From the above conversation referencing Paul Groner's work on the Tendai school, it speaks of Venerable Ennin incorporated "13 empowerments," some shared in common with Ven Kūkai, some not, into Tendai during his trips to China, but no one in that old thread seems to know anymore about it in great detail at least, like who gave these empowerments and which became incorporated into the Tendai school formally as a result. Maybe if someone has one of those books referenced, they'd feel like typing a citation for us.

I was wondering, what the fire ritual in the Tendai tradition consist of?

These threads are what I was originally trying to find, but I find the search function a little bit off-and-on here.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=31616&p=499603&hil ... ai#p499603

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=27520

[Matylda]

Good evening,

I was wondering, what the fire ritual in the Tendai tradition consist of?
Why has Tendai a esoteric ritual that comes from Shingon?
What does it represent?

Thank you

I do not think that it has any relation with shingon, probably they have their own lineage of transmission.

Venerable Kūkai and Venerable Saichō were initiated into a tantra they received in China, AFAIK. Later in a Tendai context, Venerable Ennin (I think) incorporated another tantra into mix that he also received from China.

I don't know a lot about this though, and the more I say the more likely I am to say something wrong. Indeed, I did, and already had to edit this message.

The tantra that Shingon and Tendai have in common, I do no know it's name, but the documentary A Pilgrimage to Koyasan, the narrator identifies a main teaching as the "nonduality of the two maṇḍalas," the two in question being the vajradhātu maṇḍala and the garbhakośadhātu maṇḍala. I don't know if the narration was written in consultation with the Shingon monks they interviewed for the project (and it is a very nice documentary) or if the narration was written by an academic Buddhologist.

I think they might actually be two intertwined tantras practiced together, but I don't know.

I vaguely remember what I read but as far as i can recall Saicho asked Kukai for some transmissions he did not receive but was refused on the ground that he should formally become a chela in chela-guru relationship. He denied it so nothing happened in fact.
Later on Ennin brought much more tantric transmissions after 7 years retreat in China, and situation reversed. tendai had more than shingon. True or not this I do not know, however split between shingon and tendai happened in thevery initial period of the history with two main figures.

My guess is that depending on whose narration we are exposed to we may hear different stories. But this is totally irrelevant
since what counts is pure fact that both schools are absolutely autonomous to this day.

[Queequeg]

I vaguely remember what I read but as far as i can recall Saicho asked Kukai for some transmissions he did not receive but was refused on the ground that he should formally become a chela in chela-guru relationship. He denied it so nothing happened in fact.
Later on Ennin brought much more tantric transmissions after 7 years retreat in China, and situation reversed. tendai had more than shingon. True or not this I do not know, however split between shingon and tendai happened in thevery initial period of the history with two main figures.

My guess is that depending on whose narration we are exposed to we may hear different stories. But this is totally irrelevant
since what counts is pure fact that both schools are absolutely autonomous to this day.

I could be wrong on the details, but basically, Saicho could not devote the time Kukai required as Saicho had responsibilities for establishing Enryakuji. IIRC, Saicho had some of his students stay for the full training, including one who later refused to return to Enryakuji. Its unfair to characterize any of this as some demonstration of superiority or what not. Anyone who studies Saicho will see that there was much more to him than his relationship with Kukai. Kukai demanded that Saicho make what he taught his sole occupation, and that requirement is what it is, as well.

It also illustrates Saicho's view that Esotericism isn't the be all end all that Kukai taught to be the case. In fact, Japanese Tendai includes both Exoteric and Esoteric teachings which are considered different expressions of paths to awakening. This contrasts with Kukai who considered only the Esoteric path as authentic.

As I understand, the main difference is the manner in which Shingon posits that all phenomena emanate from Mahavairocana while in Tendai, Mahavairocana and all Buddhas are co-equal emanations of Shakyamuni (and, if you shift perspective, the same can be mutually said of all Buddhas.). It might seem like a minor difference, but it has profound implications.

[Kajmak383]

Thank for all your answers.
What are those "sticks" they burn in the Goma ritual?
As far as I know it is practiced in Shugendō too, so what is the real meaning behind it? Is it just a tantric practice that we can't fully understand, unless we are an ordained priest?

[Seishin]

Thank for all your answers.
What are those "sticks" they burn in the Goma ritual?
As far as I know it is practiced in Shugendō too, so what is the real meaning behind it? Is it just a tantric practice that we can't fully understand, unless we are an ordained priest?

The Goma is a Tantric fire ritual based on Mahavairocana Tantra, Vajraśekhara Sūtra, Susiddhikara sūtra and supporting Goma Texts (Tendai places more emphasis on the Sussidhikara Sūtra than Shingon and leans toward the devotional aspects). Before studying the goma one must first be taught the juhachido, taizokai and kongokai mandala ritual meditations. This requires ordination.
The goal of the goma meditation is to realise oneself as Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairochana Tathagata). The fire represents the fire of wisdom, and we use this to burn away our defilements. Scholars maintain that the goma was essentially borrowed from the pre-existing vedic religions of ancient India. In the vedic gomas they would offer animal sacrifices. Of course, in the Buddhist goma, no animals are offered, instead there are various offerings as below;
37 pieces of cut wood symbolizing Thirty Seven Factors leading Enlightenment .
108 pieces of Nyuboku wood representing 108 mental afflictions. These are 12 finger lengths long representing the Twelve-linked chain of Dependent Origination.
As well as these there are mixed grains, rice, Shikimi leaves, sesame, incense and water offered to the fire, each with its own meaning and significance. I'm reluctant to say anything more on that.
The goma has various stages and includes numerous meditations within. What you usually see at temple events is a performance that has been sped up. In reality the goma will take a long time to complete.

Saicho and Kukai brought back esoteric Buddhism to Japan, however Saicho didn't have complete transmission. He requested Kukai to teach him, but Kukai wished him to devote all his time to Shingon. As Saicho was trying to establish Tendai he declined, but sent a few of his students to study with
Kukai. Those students ended up staying with Kukai, so Ennin went to China after Saicho's death to bring back complete transmission. He ended up doing that and more, becoming a rival to Shingon. What Kukai and Ennin brought back were slightly different lineages, but they weren't completely different. Despite being rival schools there was much cooperation between them, as both schools swapped texts and learnt from each other. Many people still (incorrectly) maintain that the esoteric lineage of Tendai came from Shingon. I think this is often stated for two reasons; 1) Saicho wanted to learn from Kukai and sent his disciples to Kukai, leading to the assumption that Tendai mikkyo comes from Kukai. 2) the word "shingon" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese zhēnyán, meaning mantra. In China it didn't refer to a particular school or lineage and so any esoteric temple may have been called zhēnyán temples. For this reason, what Saicho, Kukai and Ennin brought back was all referred to as zhēnyán/shingon. And it was because of this that Tendai mikkyo was always called shingon until fairly recent in history (now called Taimitsu). I think this is also why people think Tendai mikkyo comes from Kukai.

Throughout history, both Shingon and Tendai mikkyo has evolved. Both schools contain practices not found in each other, but the main four practices (shido kegyo) are by and large the same.

[Seishin]

Just to clarify what I said about the lineages being slightly different;
Ennin studied kongokai under Yuanzheng of Daxingshanshi monastery, Taizokai and Susiddhikara sutra under Yizhen of Qinglongsi monastery, further more Taizokai under Faquan of Xuanfasi, siddham under Yuanjian of Da’anguosi, and siddham pronunciation under the Indian Acarya Baoyue.

Kukai studied kongokai and taizokai under Huiguo. Huiguo taught Yichao, Yichao taught Farun, Farun taught Faquan.

[Queequeg]

Great, Seishin.

[Kajmak383]

Thank you very much Seishin!

And thanks all the others again.

[Seishin]

[Seishin]

As I understand, the main difference is the manner in which Shingon posits that all phenomena emanate from Mahavairocana while in Tendai, Mahavairocana and all Buddhas are co-equal emanations of Shakyamuni (and, if you shift perspective, the same can be mutually said of all Buddhas.). It might seem like a minor difference, but it has profound implications.

This is possibly my own failings and misunderstandings of Tendai doctrine (and I will be checking with my sensei), but I believe in Tendai Mahavairocana is not an emanation of Shakyamuni, instead, they are one and the same being (ittai 一体) making the Lotus Sutra on equal footing to the Tantras. In fact, not only Lotus Sutra, but all sutras, as they are all the teaching of the One Original Buddha (ichi Butsu 一佛). As Shakyamuni he teaches the 'open' teaching, and as Mahavairocana he teaches the 'secret' teaching, but they are in essence one teaching. But the distinction between the two bodies is only made due to our unenlightened minds. Nirmānakāya is also Dharmakāya in the ultimate sense...... I will be double checking this so take with a pinch of salt

[Queequeg]

As I understand, the main difference is the manner in which Shingon posits that all phenomena emanate from Mahavairocana while in Tendai, Mahavairocana and all Buddhas are co-equal emanations of Shakyamuni (and, if you shift perspective, the same can be mutually said of all Buddhas.). It might seem like a minor difference, but it has profound implications.

This is possibly my own failings and misunderstandings of Tendai doctrine (and I will be checking with my sensei), but I believe in Tendai Mahavairocana is not an emanation of Shakyamuni, instead, they are one and the same being (ittai 一体) making the Lotus Sutra on equal footing to the Tantras. In fact, not only Lotus Sutra, but all sutras, as they are all the teaching of the One Original Buddha (ichi Butsu 一佛). As Shakyamuni he teaches the 'open' teaching, and as Mahavairocana he teaches the 'secret' teaching, but they are in essence one teaching. But the distinction between the two bodies is only made due to our unenlightened minds. Nirmānakāya is also Dharmakāya in the ultimate sense...... I will be double checking this so take with a pinch of salt

Of course I'll defer to your explanation, but just picking up on some of the points you raise here -

I think we have to be careful in saying ittai means they are the same being. I think you'd agree that "being" is a fraught word when we're talking about Buddha. Ittai literally means "one body" and as I understand pertains to the oneness of the three bodies particularly, but the "one body" of all buddhas more generally. I suppose using the term emanation is also problematic because it is suggestive of a primary source out of which the others emanate.

As I understand, what we're actually talking about is the Essential Teaching of the Lotus Sutra which starts with the appearance of Prabhutaratna's Stupa and the gathering of Buddhas from the ten directions. All those buddhas are identified as "emanations" of Shakyamuni, but not, as noted above, as sort of copies of Shakyamuni projecting out of a single source. As Shakyamuni explains in the Life Span chapter, he awakened in the remote past and since appears wherever beings arise in whatever appropriate form, teaching according to capacities and conditions to lead beings to Buddhahood. As I understand, Mahavairocana is one of these appearances. So, along the lines you suggest, we can't say that Mahavairocana is superior or inferior. I understand there are some teachings which posit Mahavairocana as Dharmakaya to Shakyamuni's Nirmanakaya, but I think that obscures things a little bit - as though there is some sort of exclusive identity between Gautama and Mahavairocana which excludes other buddhas. Rather, to borrow some Ziporyn language - Shakyamuni appears as Bhaisajyaguru, and alternatively, Bhaisajyaguru appears as Shakyamuni - depending on where one stand in looking on. If, as we are here in this Saha, looking on Shakyamuni - the buddha who appeared as annuttarasamyaksambuddha to us, then Bhaisjyaguru is an avatar of Shakyamuni. Alternatively, if we are born in Vaiduryanirbhasa, Bhaisajyaguru would be our historical Buddha, and Shakyamuni would be his avatar in Saha.

In Shingon, Shakyamuni is posited as emanating from Mahavairocana, placing them in a vertical relationship; the latter is proposed as primary, ie. Dharmakaya is somehow primary to the rupakaya - sambhoga and nirmana kayas. In the Tendai view, one can't say that one is primary compared to the other, I believe. This would be a vertical view, which, as Zhiyi explains in other contexts, is untenable. Notably, these appearances of Buddha do not stand in a horizontal relationship - ie. they are not all independent and equal "beings". That is also untenable.

As I understand, its like in the Suramgama Sutra when all the devas want to make a throne offering to the Buddha. Each one sees the Buddha before them and they feel like they get the great honor of giving a throne to the Buddha, but what happens is the Buddha uses his powers to appear before each of them. He then takes all the thrones and combines them into one great throne. Are there many Buddhas, or one Buddha?

This is why, as I understand, any Buddha is appropriate as a honzon, because each is a dependent appearance in response to the needs of beings. Mahavairocana is the same - his significance being that he teaches the esoteric teachings.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Maybe we are.

This might be interesting if you understand Japanese:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=31556

I would be very interested to hear the explanation of your teacher.

[Seishin]

In the Tendai view, one can't say that one is primary compared to the other, I believe. This would be a vertical view, which, as Zhiyi explains in other contexts, is untenable. Notably, these appearances of Buddha do not stand in a horizontal relationship - ie. they are not all independent and equal "beings". That is also untenable.

Yes, this is essentially my understanding. You know, I deleted the word "being" and replaced it with numerous others. I didn't feel any word could describe it correctly, even though "body" is the translation. I wanted to highlight the fact they weren't different, but only appeared different due to circumstances (circumstances being the minds of the audiance). "Body" just didn't cut it for me, but I agree "being" also causes misunderstanding.

Sadly, my understanding of the written Japanese is far better than my understanding of spoken. And my understanding of written Japanese isn't great I watched the video but got lost a couple of times.

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

In Shingon, Shakyamuni is posited as emanating from Mahavairocana, placing them in a vertical relationship; the latter is proposed as primary, ie. Dharmakaya is somehow primary to the rupakaya - sambhoga and nirmana kayas.

I'm not sure the source of the explanation above but it is contrary to what I understand* of the Mahavairocanabhisambodhi-sutra, the Darijing Shu (commentary on the sutra), and the writings of Kukai such as his key works, like Sho-ji-jisso gi (The Meanings of Sound, Letter, and Reality) or Sokushin jobutsu gi (Buddhahood Immediately and in this Body), or the few of the kaidai (lecture notes) that Kukai wrote on the sutra.

Takagi and Dreitlein (2010) define Dharmakaya in the glossary, writing "In Kukai's system, 'the six great elements produce the fourfold Dharmakaya' (Sokushin jobutsu gi) and all four are dharmakaya and identical in essence, differentiated only in their activities or functions, specifically how and to whom they preach." continuing "The fourfold Dharmakaya is not separate and distinct from the beings being preached to 'The fivefold wisdom and fourfold Dharmakaya encompass the tenfold world with nothing left out." {pg, 366-367, Kukai on the Philosophy of Language}

There is a lot more in the glossary of the book that you can review but to sum up my understanding in brief Dharmakaya/Mahavairocana isn't primary (in vertical relationship) to anything, it is everything ("with nothing left out"). To be fair, there is a lot of confusing stuff online about Shingon. Even some online encyclopedias have unusual explanations or descriptions. Having studied both Tendai and Shingon to a slight degree I think it's probably better to learn about each tradition from itself instead of the compare and contrast approach. Your mileage may vary.

jake

*I readily admit I understand little so, grain of salt.

[Queequeg]

In Shingon, Shakyamuni is posited as emanating from Mahavairocana, placing them in a vertical relationship; the latter is proposed as primary, ie. Dharmakaya is somehow primary to the rupakaya - sambhoga and nirmana kayas.

I'm not sure the source of the explanation above but it is contrary to what I understand* of the Mahavairocanabhisambodhi-sutra, the Darijing Shu (commentary on the sutra), and the writings of Kukai such as his key works, like Sho-ji-jisso gi (The Meanings of Sound, Letter, and Reality) or Sokushin jobutsu gi (Buddhahood Immediately and in this Body), or the few of the kaidai (lecture notes) that Kukai wrote on the sutra.

Takagi and Dreitlein (2010) define Dharmakaya in the glossary, writing "In Kukai's system, 'the six great elements produce the fourfold Dharmakaya' (Sokushin jobutsu gi) and all four are dharmakaya and identical in essence, differentiated only in their activities or functions, specifically how and to whom they preach." continuing "The fourfold Dharmakaya is not separate and distinct from the beings being preached to 'The fivefold wisdom and fourfold Dharmakaya encompass the tenfold world with nothing left out." {pg, 366-367, Kukai on the Philosophy of Language}

There is a lot more in the glossary of the book that you can review but to sum up my understanding in brief Dharmakaya/Mahavairocana isn't primary (in vertical relationship) to anything, it is everything ("with nothing left out"). To be fair, there is a lot of confusing stuff online about Shingon. Even some online encyclopedias have unusual explanations or descriptions. Having studied both Tendai and Shingon to a slight degree I think it's probably better to learn about each tradition from itself instead of the compare and contrast approach. Your mileage may vary.

jake

*I readily admit I understand little so, grain of salt.

I defer to you, Jake.

I think the way I put it might be my own idiosyncratic expression of how I understand it.

But taking the language you used above, and I'm not going out to say anything more -

"the six great elements produce the fourfold Dharmakaya"

This suggests that the six great elements are primary, which is indeed different than what I suggested above.

Then, saying, "the fivehold wisdom and forufold Dharmakaya encompass the tenfold world with nothing left out" seems to suggest that wisdom and dharmakaya are the substrate of the world, encompassing them.

I'm probably still misunderstanding so, I'll stop there. Taking a step back, what this makes me think, though, is that Shingon and Tendai, while using some of the same language, are actually very different systems that don't line up very well, so maybe I'll just retract my comparative statement that set this off.

[Queequeg]

You know, I deleted the word "being" and replaced it with numerous others. I didn't feel any word could describe it correctly, even though "body" is the translation. I wanted to highlight the fact they weren't different, but only appeared different due to circumstances (circumstances being the minds of the audiance). "Body" just didn't cut it for me, but I agree "being" also causes misunderstanding.

Its tough getting the terms right. It seems no matter what word we choose, a footnote needs to be added. Makes for some tedious reading, LOL

[Seishin]

I would be very interested to hear the explanation of your teacher.

My sensei didn't really say either view was right/wrong, only to say that in the Lotus Sutra (according to Tendai) Prabhutaratna Tathagata is viewed as an emanation of Mahavairocana. Shayakyamuni and Mahavairocana share the same "seat" (stupa) "Nibutsu Heiza" which is the teaching of Ichibutsujo 一佛乘.