Differences between Tendai and Shingon

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Queequeg
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Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Queequeg »



Came across this video. Its in Japanese so unless you understand, its probably not much interest. The speaker is a Tendai priest, but was originally ordained in Shingon and trained at both Koyasan and Hiezan. He explains that both traditions are very similar - for instance, goma is basically the same; he can tell the difference based on minor details like the placement of implements, but the average lay person probably could not.

Substantively, its interesting the differences he points out, for instance in the way that Mahavairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai) is conceived. In Shingon, Dainichi, he says, is the source from which all other Buddhas emanate. So for instance, Shakyamuni Buddha is an emanation of Dainichi who appeared in this world. In Tendai, Dainichi and Shakyamuni are considered 一体 or One Body. This difference is subtle - but I think it reflects deep difference in view. To suggest that Shakyamuni Buddha is an emanation of Dainichi implies a linear process in which Dharmakaya Buddha pre-exists in some sense (in a deeper analysis that is probably too crude to put it that way) and then manifests a form body in response to circumstances. The One Body suggests the flattening of cause and effect (the simultaneity of cause and effect) we find in the Inclusive Three Truths structure. Dainichi and Shakyamuni are two folds of a single body (IIRC, the Sambhogakaya is related as Rochana Buddha). This is in the esoteric sense, I think. In the exoteric sense, the three bodies are unified in the Shakyamuni Buddha who appears in the Lotus, informed by, for instance the Avatamsaka Sutra that relates Vairochana (also called Dainichi in Japanese) to the sambhogakaya Shakyamuni manifested on his awakening at Gaya out of spontaneuous bliss.

Another difference he suggested is that Shingon focuses on the Esoteric Sutras, primarily the Mahavairochana Sutra and Vajrasekhara Sutra on which the Womb World and Diamond World mandalas are based, respectivley, while Tendai also emphasizes the broader Mahayana canon.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by User 3495 »

Thank you for your explanation! :good:
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:27 pm(IIRC, the Sambhogakaya is related as Rochana Buddha)
Which is fascinating. Why? Rocana is the sun, Vairocana is that which emanates from the sun (i.e. sunbeams, illumination, etc.). Vairocana is named for what he "does," so to speak. He emanates Buddhas. IIRC descriptions of Mahāvairocana typically involve him emanating myriads of Jinas (Conquerors) from his fingers, his eyelids, etc. This is much how Śākyamunibuddha is depicted in the Lotus tradition, like he is absorbing the features of Mahāvairocana.

For instance, in Charles Muller's translation of Venerable Chegwan's 天台四教儀 (Heaven's Peak Fourfold Teaching Exegesis), a Korean Tiāntāi catechism text, Śākyamunibuddha is depicted as "Casting off his fine Vairocana garb" before descending to earth.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:29 am Why? Rocana is the sun, Vairocana is that which emanates from the sun (i.e. sunbeams, illumination, etc.). Vairocana is named for what he "does," so to speak. He emanates Buddhas. IIRC descriptions of Mahāvairocana typically involve him emanating myriads of Jinas (Conquerors) from his fingers, his eyelids, etc. This is much how Śākyamunibuddha is depicted in the Lotus tradition, like he is absorbing the features of Mahāvairocana.
Is this description from sutra? or sastra? Can you say which? It's a bit different than what I have read.
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

No, it's just the etymology of the names. Or if you mean the image of Vairocana I was talking about, I think it's from the Mahāyāna Brahmājālasūtra or the Vairocanābhisaṁbodhisūtra. I can look it up when I get back home at the end of the day.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:15 pm No, it's just the etymology of the names.
Ah, that explains why I've not come across this before. I am not given to searching the etymology of the terms. I struggle enough to understand the meaning of the terms as used in the sutra. :)

thanks!!
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

jake wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:04 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:15 pm No, it's just the etymology of the names.
Ah, that explains why I've not come across this before. I am not given to searching the etymology of the terms. I struggle enough to understand the meaning of the terms as used in the sutra. :)
If anything, the twin etymologies of Rocana and Vairocana tell us that etymology is not, in this case particularly, a good vehicle to derive direct meaning from, and can only serve as a history of sounds made with the mouth, and not necessarily a history of the concepts these sounds are attached to.

Case and point, why I found the saṃbhogakāya as Rocana Buddha "fascinating" is that from an etymological view alone, one would expect "Vai-Rocana" (the illumination) to be derived from Rocana (the sun). Now, drawing heirarchies out of the trikāya is not necessarily a fruitful exersize, but it's likely safe to say the dharmakāya is not derived from the saṃbhogakāya.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by FromTheEarth »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:15 pm No, it's just the etymology of the names. Or if you mean the image of Vairocana I was talking about, I think it's from the Mahāyāna Brahmājālasūtra or the Vairocanābhisaṁbodhisūtra. I can look it up when I get back home at the end of the day.
Dear Caoimhghín, I am indeed curious about the Rochana-Vairochana relation you mentioned, especially regarding the imagery aspect. Could you kindly find the quotation, please?
The common theory I heard about is that there was only one term "vairochana," with the term 盧舎那("rochana") as an abbreviated transliteration of it. Then the Chinese masters not familiar with Sanskrit mistakenly/expediently treated these as two separate terms.
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

FromTheEarth wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:46 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:15 pm No, it's just the etymology of the names. Or if you mean the image of Vairocana I was talking about, I think it's from the Mahāyāna Brahmājālasūtra or the Vairocanābhisaṁbodhisūtra. I can look it up when I get back home at the end of the day.
Dear Caoimhghín, I am indeed curious about the Rochana-Vairochana relation you mentioned, especially regarding the imagery aspect. Could you kindly find the quotation, please?
There's a few things that are uncited.

Verocana is at least a semi-popular name in Indian history. Beings also bearing this name include a nāgarāja in the Pāli Canon who pays homage or gives dāna to the Buddha in the Nārada­buddha­vaṃsa Bv11. My Sanskrit and Pāli are poor but here, "yadā verocano nāgo, dānaṃ dadāti satthuno," I think that means something like, "when Verocana the Nāga gave gifts to the teacher," but that is only very tentatively.

This name also appears attached to an asura who is a student of Prajāpati who teaches a heretical doctrine of the ātman (self/soul) as śarīra (body) which the asuras adopt. This story comes from an Upaniṣad referenced on wikipedia article, attesting to the popularity of the name.

WisdomLibrary further says there are at least these more figures in Indian history further named Vairocana/Verocana/Virocana, a demon who appears to also be named Bali, a son of Agni, and a son of Sūrya. Wisdom Library also has a few etymologies/definitions of the name Vairocana, but I can also cite Malcolm:
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:I know that Mahāvairocana is 大日如來 in Chinese, "Great Sun Tathāgata".

However, the Sanskrit escapes me, due to my lack of familiarity with that language.

[...]

What is the etymology?
Vairocana: vi means aspects, here it means "to emanate"; rocana means the sun. So, the term is a word for the sun which means "to illuminate."
I also see the term translated occasionally as "the Illuminator."

On terms of Vairocana's association of emanations of Gautama Buddha, the passage from the Brahmājālanāmamahāyānasūtra:
Now, I, Vairocana Buddha, am sitting atop a lotus pedestal. On a thousand flowers surrounding me are a thousand Shakyamuni Buddhas. Each flower supports a hundred million worlds. In each world a Shakyamuni Buddha appears. All are seated beneath a Bodhi-tree. All simultaneously attain Buddhahood. All these innumerable Buddhas have Vairocana as their original body. These countless Shakyamuni Buddhas All bring followers along — as numerous as motes of dust. They all proceed to my lotus pedestal to listen to the Buddha’s precepts. I now preach the Dharma, this exquisite nectar. Afterward, the countless Buddhas return to their respective worlds and, under a Bodhi-tree, proclaim these major and minor precepts of Vairocana, the Original Buddha.
This passage appears in a translation that is floating around online from A. C. Muller. There are multiple recensions of the Brahmājāla in the Taishō Canon, to say nothing of the Dīrghāgama recension there too. This recension is too long to be T21, so I'm sorry that I don't have the Taishō citation. The Muller translation has Taishō numbers, but I haven't cross-referenced them yet.

With respect to specifically Buddhas either enthroned upon or proceeding forth from the body of Mahāvairocana, I didn't find this in the Brahmajāla, which leads me to conclude it's either in the Buddhāvataṁsakasūtra or the Vairocanābhisaṁbodhisūtra and I'm looking through these now. The passage I'm thinking about has specifically Buddhas enthroned on/in or coming from his fingertips and eyelashes, but I have to find it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Differences between Tendai and Shingon

Post by Caoimhghín »

I'm having a hell of a time substantiating the fingers and eyelashes passage that I remember reading. Until I can, best to treat it as wrong.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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