Tendai and Zen comparison

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Dharmalight889
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Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Dharmalight889 »

I know I am asking a very large questions, but would someone be able to explain some basic differences between Tendai and Zen? I know the meditation techniques may be different (shikantaza and koans in zen, shamatha/vipashyana in tendai) but what are some other major differences someone may notice between the two traditions?
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Astus »

I presume this might be more on the Japanese schools, still, as a side note it is worth mentioning that the methods and teachings of both traditions can work well together, as exemplified by Ting Chen in The Fundamentals of Meditation Practice and Thích Thanh Từ in Keys to Buddhism. Ven. Sheng Yen also talks of Tiantai in Orthodox Chinese Buddhism.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Seishin »

Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:29 pm I know I am asking a very large questions, but would someone be able to explain some basic differences between Tendai and Zen? I know the meditation techniques may be different (shikantaza and koans in zen, shamatha/vipashyana in tendai) but what are some other major differences someone may notice between the two traditions?
I know that Zen lineages vary, and so can be hard to generalize. Therefore I know that the following areas that I identify as making Tendai different can be found in various Zen lineages. However, I think they are rare enough in Zen to make it different to Tendai;

The most obvious would be the integrated nature of Tendai. First we have the Tiantai lineage, which places the Lotus Sutra as the pivotal text. The teachings of Zhiyi are also a part of this lineage and are rarely found in Japanese Zen (they are found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, as Astus highlights above). Tiantai has numerous teachings that set it apart from Zen, but you mention a good one, which I shall focus on;

In Tendai we practice shikan, which whilst look the same as Dogen's shikantaza, are actually homophones. Shikan in Tendai comes to us from the Chinese 止観 meaning (roughly) to "stop" and "see", and are the Chinese translations of the Sanskrit shamatha and vipashyana. The Chinese characters of Dogen's shikantaza are 只管打坐, which do not mean shamatha and vipashyana. Zhiyi placed the practice of Shikan in to 3 types; gradual and sequential, variable, and perfect sudden. The first comes to us from the Sanskrit Agamas, the second from Vaipulya Mahayana, the third is Zhiyi's own classification of meditation based on the Lotus Sutra. Despite the Perfect Sudden being based on Zhiyi's understanding of the Lotus Sutra, I find it's description to be not too dissimilar to the various descriptions of Chan/Zen. For Tendai practitioners, although we are aiming for the Perfect Sudden Shikan, we utilize the others based on our own requirements. So we practice things such as the meditations to remove the 5 hindrances, the 9 stages of a human corpse, and others.... I'm not sure if these appear in Zen practice in general. Probably in some lineages.
The two sections of shamatha and vipashyana are important in Tendai, probably more so than in Zen, and beginners are often told to see these as two sections of practice. Only once they have experience with these can they make these two one seamless practice; i.e. 'shikan' instead of 'shi'-'kan'.
Again, just want to say that Tiantai was absorbed into Chinese Chan, and so many of these aspects can be found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, but uncommonly found in Zen - depends on teacher/lineage.

The Lotus Sutra plays a pivotal role in Tendai, and many mistakenly think this makes Tendai/Nichiren unique, however the Lotus Sutra is also pivotal in Chan, Soen, Thien and can even be found in Japanese Zen. Dogen referenced the Lotus Sutra a lot, and the Kannon chapter (Kannon Kyo) is recited in Zen lineages (as well as Shingon). Tendai does place more emphasis on the Lotus Sutra compared with these schools, with Zen usually putting more emphasis on the Prajnaparamita sutras - however they are also incredibly important in Tendai (and Shingon).

Tendai incorporates esoteric Buddhism (mikkyo), and not just a few practices - I think that needs to be highlighted. Tendai contains a complete esoteric lineage from China, just like Shingon, although ours is a slightly different lineage. This makes us unique to Zen, which typically only contains a few esoteric practices. Our view of these practices differ to Zen as well. From what I gather, the use of mantras and mudras in zen are an added extra, and not a means to enlightenment in and of themselves (again I know there will be lineages/teachers that say different, but I'm generalizing here). In Tendai, mikkyo is an equal and valid means to enlightenment, and is placed on par with the Lotus/Tiantai practices.

Tendai also incorporates Pure Land practice, which is again seen as a valid means to enlightenment. Our theory and praxis of Pure Land differs somewhat to the Pure Land Schools. The Chan, Soen, and Thien, schools have also incorporated Pure Land practice, but I'm not sure to what extent or how similar/different it is to Tendai. Pure Land practice in Zen is rare, and is usually secondary to the practice of Zen.

There is much much more that can be said, but I think I'll leave it at that.
In my haste to type this up I may have made some mistakes which I'm sure people will be quick to correct me on! :tongue:
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Tendai includes Zen-style meditation and other features among its large array of cultivation techniques.

Dogen (founder of Soto Zen sect in Japan) and Eisai (founder of Rinai Zen sect in Japan) both were Tendai practitioners before they split off and established their own schools.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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I wouldn't say that Tendai includes "Zen-style" meditation. What is "zen-style"? If you are referring to seated meditation (zazen) then it's worth pointing out that this is not unique to Zen buddhism or Tendai. Seated meditation is found almost universally in Buddhism. I think I get what you mean, but just wanted to make the point, as saying in includes zen-style makes it sound like Tendai incorporated zen after the fact, when this isn't true.
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Queequeg »

Seishin wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:59 am
Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:29 pm I know I am asking a very large questions, but would someone be able to explain some basic differences between Tendai and Zen? I know the meditation techniques may be different (shikantaza and koans in zen, shamatha/vipashyana in tendai) but what are some other major differences someone may notice between the two traditions?
I know that Zen lineages vary, and so can be hard to generalize. Therefore I know that the following areas that I identify as making Tendai different can be found in various Zen lineages. However, I think they are rare enough in Zen to make it different to Tendai;

The most obvious would be the integrated nature of Tendai. First we have the Tiantai lineage, which places the Lotus Sutra as the pivotal text. The teachings of Zhiyi are also a part of this lineage and are rarely found in Japanese Zen (they are found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, as Astus highlights above). Tiantai has numerous teachings that set it apart from Zen, but you mention a good one, which I shall focus on;

In Tendai we practice shikan, which whilst look the same as Dogen's shikantaza, are actually homophones. Shikan in Tendai comes to us from the Chinese 止観 meaning (roughly) to "stop" and "see", and are the Chinese translations of the Sanskrit shamatha and vipashyana. The Chinese characters of Dogen's shikantaza are 只管打坐, which do not mean shamatha and vipashyana. Zhiyi placed the practice of Shikan in to 3 types; gradual and sequential, variable, and perfect sudden. The first comes to us from the Sanskrit Agamas, the second from Vaipulya Mahayana, the third is Zhiyi's own classification of meditation based on the Lotus Sutra. Despite the Perfect Sudden being based on Zhiyi's understanding of the Lotus Sutra, I find it's description to be not too dissimilar to the various descriptions of Chan/Zen. For Tendai practitioners, although we are aiming for the Perfect Sudden Shikan, we utilize the others based on our own requirements. So we practice things such as the meditations to remove the 5 hindrances, the 9 stages of a human corpse, and others.... I'm not sure if these appear in Zen practice in general. Probably in some lineages.
The two sections of shamatha and vipashyana are important in Tendai, probably more so than in Zen, and beginners are often told to see these as two sections of practice. Only once they have experience with these can they make these two one seamless practice; i.e. 'shikan' instead of 'shi'-'kan'.
Again, just want to say that Tiantai was absorbed into Chinese Chan, and so many of these aspects can be found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, but uncommonly found in Zen - depends on teacher/lineage.

The Lotus Sutra plays a pivotal role in Tendai, and many mistakenly think this makes Tendai/Nichiren unique, however the Lotus Sutra is also pivotal in Chan, Soen, Thien and can even be found in Japanese Zen. Dogen referenced the Lotus Sutra a lot, and the Kannon chapter (Kannon Kyo) is recited in Zen lineages (as well as Shingon). Tendai does place more emphasis on the Lotus Sutra compared with these schools, with Zen usually putting more emphasis on the Prajnaparamita sutras - however they are also incredibly important in Tendai (and Shingon).

Tendai incorporates esoteric Buddhism (mikkyo), and not just a few practices - I think that needs to be highlighted. Tendai contains a complete esoteric lineage from China, just like Shingon, although ours is a slightly different lineage. This makes us unique to Zen, which typically only contains a few esoteric practices. Our view of these practices differ to Zen as well. From what I gather, the use of mantras and mudras in zen are an added extra, and not a means to enlightenment in and of themselves (again I know there will be lineages/teachers that say different, but I'm generalizing here). In Tendai, mikkyo is an equal and valid means to enlightenment, and is placed on par with the Lotus/Tiantai practices.

Tendai also incorporates Pure Land practice, which is again seen as a valid means to enlightenment. Our theory and praxis of Pure Land differs somewhat to the Pure Land Schools. The Chan, Soen, and Thien, schools have also incorporated Pure Land practice, but I'm not sure to what extent or how similar/different it is to Tendai. Pure Land practice in Zen is rare, and is usually secondary to the practice of Zen.

There is much much more that can be said, but I think I'll leave it at that.
In my haste to type this up I may have made some mistakes which I'm sure people will be quick to correct me on! :tongue:
Thank you, Seishin-sama.

One comment I would add - put a finer point on some things you mention- Tiantai, and especially Tendai, founded on teachings of Upaya found in the Lotus embraces almost any ethical activity as a means to awaken. This is especially captured in the teachings on four modes of practice - sitting, walking, Sitting and walking, neither sitting not walking - that expansively understood embrace all modes. I think this basic disposition laid the groundwork for the incorporation of Mikkyo in Tendai, as well as some of the more provacative arguments of Zhili.

This makes Tiantai/Tendai unique and especially distinguishes from Chan/Zen which tend to more focused and discrete methods. Tiantai/Tendai arguably provides a universalist template accommodating the full spectrum of practices according to needs.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Dharmalight889
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Seishin wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:59 am
Dharmalight889 wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:29 pm I know I am asking a very large questions, but would someone be able to explain some basic differences between Tendai and Zen? I know the meditation techniques may be different (shikantaza and koans in zen, shamatha/vipashyana in tendai) but what are some other major differences someone may notice between the two traditions?
I know that Zen lineages vary, and so can be hard to generalize. Therefore I know that the following areas that I identify as making Tendai different can be found in various Zen lineages. However, I think they are rare enough in Zen to make it different to Tendai;

The most obvious would be the integrated nature of Tendai. First we have the Tiantai lineage, which places the Lotus Sutra as the pivotal text. The teachings of Zhiyi are also a part of this lineage and are rarely found in Japanese Zen (they are found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, as Astus highlights above). Tiantai has numerous teachings that set it apart from Zen, but you mention a good one, which I shall focus on;

In Tendai we practice shikan, which whilst look the same as Dogen's shikantaza, are actually homophones. Shikan in Tendai comes to us from the Chinese 止観 meaning (roughly) to "stop" and "see", and are the Chinese translations of the Sanskrit shamatha and vipashyana. The Chinese characters of Dogen's shikantaza are 只管打坐, which do not mean shamatha and vipashyana. Zhiyi placed the practice of Shikan in to 3 types; gradual and sequential, variable, and perfect sudden. The first comes to us from the Sanskrit Agamas, the second from Vaipulya Mahayana, the third is Zhiyi's own classification of meditation based on the Lotus Sutra. Despite the Perfect Sudden being based on Zhiyi's understanding of the Lotus Sutra, I find it's description to be not too dissimilar to the various descriptions of Chan/Zen. For Tendai practitioners, although we are aiming for the Perfect Sudden Shikan, we utilize the others based on our own requirements. So we practice things such as the meditations to remove the 5 hindrances, the 9 stages of a human corpse, and others.... I'm not sure if these appear in Zen practice in general. Probably in some lineages.
The two sections of shamatha and vipashyana are important in Tendai, probably more so than in Zen, and beginners are often told to see these as two sections of practice. Only once they have experience with these can they make these two one seamless practice; i.e. 'shikan' instead of 'shi'-'kan'.
Again, just want to say that Tiantai was absorbed into Chinese Chan, and so many of these aspects can be found in Chan, Soen, and Thien, but uncommonly found in Zen - depends on teacher/lineage.

The Lotus Sutra plays a pivotal role in Tendai, and many mistakenly think this makes Tendai/Nichiren unique, however the Lotus Sutra is also pivotal in Chan, Soen, Thien and can even be found in Japanese Zen. Dogen referenced the Lotus Sutra a lot, and the Kannon chapter (Kannon Kyo) is recited in Zen lineages (as well as Shingon). Tendai does place more emphasis on the Lotus Sutra compared with these schools, with Zen usually putting more emphasis on the Prajnaparamita sutras - however they are also incredibly important in Tendai (and Shingon).

Tendai incorporates esoteric Buddhism (mikkyo), and not just a few practices - I think that needs to be highlighted. Tendai contains a complete esoteric lineage from China, just like Shingon, although ours is a slightly different lineage. This makes us unique to Zen, which typically only contains a few esoteric practices. Our view of these practices differ to Zen as well. From what I gather, the use of mantras and mudras in zen are an added extra, and not a means to enlightenment in and of themselves (again I know there will be lineages/teachers that say different, but I'm generalizing here). In Tendai, mikkyo is an equal and valid means to enlightenment, and is placed on par with the Lotus/Tiantai practices.

Tendai also incorporates Pure Land practice, which is again seen as a valid means to enlightenment. Our theory and praxis of Pure Land differs somewhat to the Pure Land Schools. The Chan, Soen, and Thien, schools have also incorporated Pure Land practice, but I'm not sure to what extent or how similar/different it is to Tendai. Pure Land practice in Zen is rare, and is usually secondary to the practice of Zen.

There is much much more that can be said, but I think I'll leave it at that.
In my haste to type this up I may have made some mistakes which I'm sure people will be quick to correct me on! :tongue:
Wow thank you for this detailed response! Clarified a lot of questions I had and gave me a good foundation of knowledge. If I am understanding it correctly, Tendai seems to focus on a wide range of practices and approaches to enlightenment, (study, meditation, pure land, esoteric) while Zen seems to primarily focus on meditation as a way to enlightenment (probably summarizing it very simply here, and someone could make arguments for the other practices in zen).

This makes me also wonder. To what extent does study play in Tendai? I know the Lotus Sutra is studied, but is study a key area of focus in Tendai? From your description, Tendai reminds me of Tibetan Buddhism and I know philosophy, logic, abhidharma, etc are studied extensively by many in Tibetan Buddhism, is the same true for Tendai? Also are many Indian authors studied like they are in Tibetan Buddhism, or does Tendai focus on Chinese/Japanese scholars?

Also I am curious how training looks for both lay and monastic in Tendai vs Zen. I'm assuming for lay practice it is pretty similar? Meditation and some study, although maybe there are some other differences I am not aware of. Monastic practice I know is slightly different with rituals and esoteric methods being taught in Tendai tradition but what other differences are there? Are there other common monastic practices? Is meditation stressed as much as it is in zen? Are retreats as common as they are in Zen?

Hope this isn't too much too ask. Thank you!
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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That is a lot of questions! :tongue:
To what extent does study play in Tendai?
Study and practice are the two wings of Tendai. If one is lacking you'll never attain Buddhahood. Therefore study is very important in Tendai. And we don't just study the Lotus Sutra either. In reality, all sutras are important to Tendai, as we do not discard any, however, that doesn't mean every Tendai Buddhist has studied every Sutra. That said, a Tendai Buddhist who is serious about practice should study as much as possible, and certainly not just the Lotus Sutra. This includes the Agamas (or the Nikayas in lieu of the Agamas), as well as the Mahayana Sutras and their commentaries. This also includes the classics such as the works from Nagarjuna (answering another of your questions), who is considered a patriarch of Tendai, and many other Indian classics - including Abhidharma which Zhiyi referenced often.
Also I am curious how training looks for both lay and monastic in Tendai vs Zen.
As I've not received training in Zen I can't give a comparison. What I have found is that the experience of lay people in Tendai can differ massively depending on what temple they attend and who their teacher is. There isn't any official lay study program in Tendai that I am aware of, and it is usually up to the teacher to decide what they teach lay people. For this reason, lay people may have different experiences.

Priests in Japan usually ordain young (between the ages of 10 and 15), and spend years learning the zengyō (preliminary practices) and depending on the teacher, sometimes kegyō (esoteric practices). They may also attend one of the 2 Tendai colleges to deeper learn the philosophy and both zengyō and kegyō. They then will attend gyōin on Mt Hiei - 2 months of intense practice.
For priests in the West it is a little different. Up until fairly recently there was no official training for western priests, and so you'd need to seek out priests qualified to ordain and train you, such as my current teacher Shōshin Ichishima (I was actually ordain by Ganshin Rock, but became a disciple of Ichishima sensei after Rock sensei passed away). Now there is a very good ordination program for westerners at the Tendai Institute in New York in which you go through the intense practice of gyōin, which I believe they split into 2 weeks over 6 years (I think).
Is meditation stressed as much as it is in zen?
Probably not as much as Zen, but it is very important.
Are retreats as common as they are in Zen?
For lay people?... in the US, yes, in the rest of the world, no. I believe there is something similar to a retreat at the base of Mt Hiei, where lay people can spend a few days immersed in Tendai practice, but these aren't so important, unlike in Zen, it seems. To be honest I don't know why. I get the feeling, speaking with others, that lay retreats really are a modern phenomenon and previously weren't popular amongst the lay. I might be wrong on that though.
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Seishin wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:33 am That is a lot of questions! :tongue:
To what extent does study play in Tendai?
Study and practice are the two wings of Tendai. If one is lacking you'll never attain Buddhahood. Therefore study is very important in Tendai. And we don't just study the Lotus Sutra either. In reality, all sutras are important to Tendai, as we do not discard any, however, that doesn't mean every Tendai Buddhist has studied every Sutra. That said, a Tendai Buddhist who is serious about practice should study as much as possible, and certainly not just the Lotus Sutra. This includes the Agamas (or the Nikayas in lieu of the Agamas), as well as the Mahayana Sutras and their commentaries. This also includes the classics such as the works from Nagarjuna (answering another of your questions), who is considered a patriarch of Tendai, and many other Indian classics - including Abhidharma which Zhiyi referenced often.
Also I am curious how training looks for both lay and monastic in Tendai vs Zen.
As I've not received training in Zen I can't give a comparison. What I have found is that the experience of lay people in Tendai can differ massively depending on what temple they attend and who their teacher is. There isn't any official lay study program in Tendai that I am aware of, and it is usually up to the teacher to decide what they teach lay people. For this reason, lay people may have different experiences.

Priests in Japan usually ordain young (between the ages of 10 and 15), and spend years learning the zengyō (preliminary practices) and depending on the teacher, sometimes kegyō (esoteric practices). They may also attend one of the 2 Tendai colleges to deeper learn the philosophy and both zengyō and kegyō. They then will attend gyōin on Mt Hiei - 2 months of intense practice.
For priests in the West it is a little different. Up until fairly recently there was no official training for western priests, and so you'd need to seek out priests qualified to ordain and train you, such as my current teacher Shōshin Ichishima (I was actually ordain by Ganshin Rock, but became a disciple of Ichishima sensei after Rock sensei passed away). Now there is a very good ordination program for westerners at the Tendai Institute in New York in which you go through the intense practice of gyōin, which I believe they split into 2 weeks over 6 years (I think).
Is meditation stressed as much as it is in zen?
Probably not as much as Zen, but it is very important.
Are retreats as common as they are in Zen?
For lay people?... in the US, yes, in the rest of the world, no. I believe there is something similar to a retreat at the base of Mt Hiei, where lay people can spend a few days immersed in Tendai practice, but these aren't so important, unlike in Zen, it seems. To be honest I don't know why. I get the feeling, speaking with others, that lay retreats really are a modern phenomenon and previously weren't popular amongst the lay. I might be wrong on that though.

Another great reply! Thank you for the information, its very useful. Two questions about the training you referenced,

is zengyo (preliminary practices) similar to ngondro in Tibetan traditions? Or are the practices different?

Could you also clarify what gyoin is? I tried to google information about it, but was not able to find much. The one thing mentioned was the ritual practice of gyo where one walks 18-52 miles, although that was all the information I could find.
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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is zengyo (preliminary practices) similar to ngondro in Tibetan traditions? Or are the practices different?
Although I don't know what ngondro is, a quick google tells me that it is completely different. Tibetan Buddhism is a completely different lineage of Buddhism than Tendai/Tiantai. And Indian & Tibetan Buddhism continued to evolve separate from Japan and Tendai. There may be some similarities here and there, but its really best to think of them as completely separate lineages.

Zengyō consists of learning the exoteric practices, rituals, meditations and philosophy. This also covers more laborious aspects of temple life.

Gyōin is the 2 month intensive training. The first month is exoteric (i.e. zengyō), and the second month eosteric - kegyō. However, Gyōin is not a seminary as we would understand it. It is more about the experience, in which the priests wake early, practice all day in a highly regulated and ritualistic manner, and sleep a few hours a night. It's an ascestic practice essentially.
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Dharmalight889 wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:21 pm Could you also clarify what gyoin is?
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There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Seishin-sama, would you mind briefly explaining the four meditation manuals by Zhiyi? That might help answer some of OPs questions, at least from the Tiantai/Tendai side.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:44 pm Seishin-sama, would you mind briefly explaining the four meditation manuals by Zhiyi? That might help answer some of OPs questions, at least from the Tiantai/Tendai side.
Is there such a thing as "briefly" when it comes to Zhiyi's manuals? :tongue:

There are actually more than four, but the four main ones are;
1. 釋禪波羅蜜次第法門 Shi chán bōluómì cìdì famén (Shaku zen haramitsu shidai homon). A sequential explanation of the Dharma-gate of the perfection of meditation.
This text defines dhyāna, and the perfection of dhyāna, coming from the viewpoint of 'Gradual and Sequential' (hence the title). I really like this text as he defines numerous terms that appear frequently in his later texts, such as "dhyāna", "samādhi", "śamatha", "vipaśyanā", and more. He takes the more familiar Indian Mahayana meditation practices, from the view point of 'gradual and sequential' and places them in the context of Śrāvakas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas. He places these meditations in to four types; ‘Sequential’, ‘Sequential non sequential’, ‘Non sequential sequential’, and ‘Non sequential’. He also looks at the "Perfect Practice" which he calls the practice of Buddhas.
Other familiar topics covered are the three gates of 'breath, body, and mind', the 'Four Siddhāntas', the 'Four Form Dhyānas', the 'Four Immeasurable Minds', the 'Four Formless Dhyānas', and more.
I could say more, but I'll leave it at that.

2. 小止觀 Xiao zhi guān (Sho Shikan). I translate the title as 'Small [Treatise on] Calming and Seeing'.
This text is very much a manual of meditation, with numerous nuggets of philosophy for good measure. It was supposedly written for his brother who was ill, but is also aimed at lay people in general, so is a good beginners book for lay and monastic alike. It focuses on the practice of śamatha- vipaśyanā’ (shikan) meditation. Areas covered, first dealing with life in general; following precepts, clothing, food, dwelling, putting aside various worldly stresses (responsibilities that worry us), the need for good spiritual friends, renouncing desires, eliminating the (five) hindrances, and then for the meditation itself; regulating food, drink, sleep, body (posutre), breath, and mind. There are also many other practical areas covered such as descriptions of cultivation (in meditation), problems that occur, and recognizing when progress is being made.
Such a great book all round.

I'll go over the other 2 texts later when I have more time.
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Thanks!

Is the Shaku zen haramitsu shidai homon translated into English? I know Sho Shikan, Roku Myomon and Makashikan have been.

For those who come to Zhiyi from the Nichiren traditions, I don't think they know that Zhiyi authored many meditation and ritual manuals, in addition to his commentaries, and how heavily practice oriented the Tianatai and Tendai traditions are. This is understandable since Nichiren had his own unique practice that he was promoting.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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There isn't, I'm afraid, but there is a dissertation on the paper that is quite detailed
https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/279913
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Seishin wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:03 pm There isn't, I'm afraid, but there is a dissertation on the paper that is quite detailed
https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/279913
:twothumbsup:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Continuing from my last post;

3. 六妙法門 Liù miào famén (Roku myō hōmon). Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime.
This text, like the Sho Shikan, is more of a meditation manual with nuggest of philosophy for goood measure. I find it a disceptive text, as it is short (you can easily read it in a day), and seems repetative as it takes the Six Gates and puts them in different contexts (i.e., the chapters), however, when properly studied, you will find it is actually full of numerous practices and indepth philosophy.

The Six Gates are;
1. 数 Shu (Su) Counting
2. 隨 Zui (Sui) Following
3. 止 Shi (chih) Stopping
4. 観 Kan (Kuan) Seeing
5. 還 Kae (Huan) Turning (Returning)
6. 淨 Kiyoshi (Ching) Purify (Refine)

The Six Gates are a theme that regularly appears in Mahayana texts, such as those by Vasubhandhu (Abhidharmakośakārikā) and Asaṇga, in Pali texts (Digha Nikaya ii.291 and Majjhima Nikaya i.425) as well as the Dhyāna Sutras (Agamas from the Sarvāstivāda school) the latter of which list counting (ganana), following (anugamah), stabilizing (sthapana), contemplation (upalaksana), turning away (vivarta), and purification (parisuddhi), which is the same list used in this text. Zhiyi states that the Six Gates as outlined in his text is the same practice the Buddha used to achieve nirvana under the Bodhi Tree.

Zhiyi then takes these Six Gates and investigates them from the viewpoint of the following;
1. In relation to the dhyāna absorptions
2. In terms of sequential development
3. In accordance with suitability
4. As a means of counteraction
5. In terms of mutual inclusion
6. In terms of identities and differences
7. In accordance with “reversed” orientation
8. Contemplation of the mind
9. Perfect contemplation
10. Signs of realization

I find the text to be fairly practical, in terms of following the instructions given, however it does require some explanation from a qualified teacher. The main focus of these meditations (or single meditation...) is breath and mind, although there are also times when other elements are focused on.

Traditionally speaking, this is concidered a 'variable' text as it includes meditation as 'gradual & sequential', as a mahayana practice, and as a 'perfect-sudden' practice.

This text is usually studied after Sho shikan and before Maka Shikan. (I'll post about Maka Shikan another time)
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Seishin wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 amThe Six Gates are a theme that regularly appears in Mahayana texts, such as those by Vasubhandhu (Abhidharmakośakārikā) and Asaṇga, in Pali texts (Digha Nikaya ii.291 and Majjhima Nikaya i.425) as well as the Dhyāna Sutras (Agamas from the Sarvāstivāda school) the latter of which list counting (ganana), following (anugamah), stabilizing (sthapana), contemplation (upalaksana), turning away (vivarta), and purification (parisuddhi), which is the same list used in this text. Zhiyi states that the Six Gates as outlined in his text is the same practice the Buddha used to achieve nirvana under the Bodhi Tree.
Side note about the six gates occurring in the Nikayas and Agamas: they do not. It is found only in the later (commentarial) tradition.
See:
The Doctrine of the Six-stage Mindfulness of Breathing by KL Dhammajoti
How the Steps of Mindfulness of Breathing Decreased from Sixteen to Two by Bhikkhu Anālayo
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Tendai and Zen comparison

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Astus wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:50 am
Seishin wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:00 amThe Six Gates are a theme that regularly appears in Mahayana texts, such as those by Vasubhandhu (Abhidharmakośakārikā) and Asaṇga, in Pali texts (Digha Nikaya ii.291 and Majjhima Nikaya i.425) as well as the Dhyāna Sutras (Agamas from the Sarvāstivāda school) the latter of which list counting (ganana), following (anugamah), stabilizing (sthapana), contemplation (upalaksana), turning away (vivarta), and purification (parisuddhi), which is the same list used in this text. Zhiyi states that the Six Gates as outlined in his text is the same practice the Buddha used to achieve nirvana under the Bodhi Tree.
Side note about the six gates occurring in the Nikayas and Agamas: they do not. It is found only in the later (commentarial) tradition.
See:
The Doctrine of the Six-stage Mindfulness of Breathing by KL Dhammajoti
How the Steps of Mindfulness of Breathing Decreased from Sixteen to Two by Bhikkhu Anālayo
I think that's my clumsy typing that's confusing things. Sorry. One of the many reasons I tend not to come here to comment - I'm simply not good at it.

Zhiyi states he got the list from the Sutra on the Prince's Auspicious Response 太子瑞應本起經, however it is likely this sutra was influenced by Sarvāstivāda commentaries, especially Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra, but also others.

And scholars suggest that Buddhagosa based his similar (but not identical) list on Digha Nikaya ii.291 and Majjhima Nikaya i.425. although the list doesn't appear in these texts.

Hopefully I've got all that right now :toilet:
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