Why we struggle to learn languages

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Punya
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Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Punya »

This TED talk was recently posted on the Facebook page of https://esukhia.net/.



The speaker, Gabriel Wyner, is the author of Fluent Forever. If you want to know more, you can now buy the Kindle version of his book for just US$2.27.

I'm sure there are similar books on the topic. Nevertheless, if you are not familiar with the latest thinking on language (or really any educational) learning, this book could change your life!
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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Queequeg
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Queequeg »

Haven't watched. I'm sure its interesting. Looking at that screenshot I can't help but think how that slick tech bro suit cool nerd look with the trimmed facial hair, and the whole TED talk motif is looking very ought-teens dated. It will eventually be a punch line, like bell bottoms in the 80s, which came back in the 90s.

Good riddance to the techbronerd chic. I see young breeders moving into my neighborhood with that look and I just want to say to them, you're too doughy for those skinny jeans.

Yeah, I'm a bitter, shallow X gen. I wear dickies and hoodies like I did when I was 20, so I'm open to ridicule, too.

Sorry. Carry on.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Punya
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Punya »

LOL Queequeg.

I have to say I'd be surprised that, as a long-standing buddhist, you couldn't get past the superficial stuff. A lesson I learnt when one of my children went through the grunge stage was that there is still a lovable person under there somewhere. It's an idea that has stuck.

I acknowledge that maybe the TED talk guy is trying to be slick, the powerpoint is pretty average and, as one Kindle reviewer said, the book is a bit of an 'infomercial with some good points'.

In my view the good points are:

Learn to use a Spaced Repetition System
Learn your language's sound system
Immersion systems are preferable ie don't waste time learning translations.

As the guy was trained as an opera singer, I found his perspective on learning your language's sound system fascinating.

Having just started what I think is my fourth Tibetan beginner course his tips seem to be valuable. SRS is more fun than endless drills. The tips may be more useful to those of us who haven't been in the education system for some time although my youngest son, who has just graduated from uni, commented this week that he wish he'd known about the SRS when he was studying.

As always, if my DW posts help just one person, then I'm happy. :anjali:
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
Natan
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Natan »

Path to fluency... go live in the country and avoid English speakers.
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Queequeg
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Queequeg »

Heh. Of course I was kidding. :)

I met my wife at that language school he's talking about. Due to that contract, we didn't actually speak until several weeks into the program, sneaking English because she spoke no Japanese when she started.

He has a good point about language learning. As he was speaking I was thinking about words or thoughts that have no direct translation between English and Japanese. One word 我慢 (gamman) which kind of means patience, but has a whole culturally conditioned experience that it goes with - gamman is something a parent might tell a child who really has to pee with no restrooms around - that experience can't be found in a book or a flashcard. It could relate to grammatical structure - in Japanse, even though there are words for "I", in fact several, they are not used often and the first person subject is often implied. Or meaning of sentences often are highly contextual and can't be deciphered in isolation - something a friend of mine calls Japanese mind reading that often presents a obstacles to non-native speakers.

I've seen similar advice for just remembering stuff - those competitive memory champions I've heard have systems where they might visualize a room they are familiar with and associate facts they are trying to remember with features of the room.

To learn a language, there is no alternative as good as just getting thrown into the deep end and having to live the language. The immersive experience is key. "Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in, great for solving problems, after it creates the problems" -Modest Mouse
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Brunelleschi
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Brunelleschi »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:10 pm Heh. Of course I was kidding. :)

I met my wife at that language school he's talking about. Due to that contract, we didn't actually speak until several weeks into the program, sneaking English because she spoke no Japanese when she started.
Cool, you speak Japanese? Wasn't your wife a professor of Japanese Poetry or something? Seems that language course went pretty well, lol.

Eehh...Watashi wa Nihongo ga sukoshi wakarimasu :shrug:
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Queequeg
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Queequeg »

Brunelleschi wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:49 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:10 pm Heh. Of course I was kidding. :)

I met my wife at that language school he's talking about. Due to that contract, we didn't actually speak until several weeks into the program, sneaking English because she spoke no Japanese when she started.
Cool, you speak Japanese? Wasn't your wife a professor of Japanese Poetry or something? Seems that language course went pretty well, lol.

Eehh...Watashi wa Nihongo ga sukoshi wakarimasu :shrug:
She's amazing. I like to claim her success because... someone so brilliant stuck with me, so that must be something. lol

She studies a genre of Buddhist paintings.

As for my abilities, I can hold a conversation over beers. :cheers: kanpai!
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Queequeg »

Back to the OP...

I mentioned the mnemonic device competitive memory champions use to remember things... isn't that what is done when one visualizes a mandala? The iconography is a way to visualize abstract teachings. Their placement in the tower indicates their relative importance to the central area which represents the high teachings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:05 pm Path to fluency... go live in the country and avoid English speakers.
Definitely. And while you’re there, the best thing to do is get a native speaking girlfriend. (Or boyfriend)
Natan
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Natan »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:05 pm Path to fluency... go live in the country and avoid English speakers.
Definitely. And while you’re there, the best thing to do is get a native speaking girlfriend. (Or boyfriend)
I did that, And you're right. Lived with her family for 7 months. No better way than to lose arguments. Lol.
Brunelleschi
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Brunelleschi »

I think Michel Thomas does some cool stuff. His method is basically to compare a new language with a language you already have knowledge of. So for example if you know English but want to learn French there are alot of similarities. The grammar of French is basically "Old English" and many many of the words are the same, with slightly different meaning/context. Table, comfortable, regret. This of corse means shared suffixes etcetera.

Maybe not as helpful when going from say English to Tibetan or Japanese - but I found it really helpful.

Various media such as movies, books, music I also find helpful. Especially when you reach a certain level.
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Queequeg
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Re: Why we struggle to learn languages

Post by Queequeg »

I recall that when I was in India, I would meet these children, inevitably they wanted to be my guide, who could speak several languages. I don't know the depth of their fluency, but I was amazed to be approached with pitches in several languages - "Do you need a guide?" "ガイドいりますか."... and several other languages. I would respond in Japanese to see how much they knew, and I'd be amazed that they could carry on basic conversations with near perfect pronunciation. This wasn't just one isolated incident. I encountered this at the Ellora caves as well as Varanasi. I asked them how they learned these languages and they said they picked it up from tourists.

It was remarkable.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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