NFT madness

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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:20 pm ^ :good:

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
Some countries are better set up in this regard than the US. Having a lot of hydro, for instance, giving another means of balancing the load profile, which the US doesn’t have the geography for. But this is really a question of planned investment as you say.
what this have to do with NFT madness
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

One major reason: As a means of processing transactions, blockchain-based systems are comparatively slow. Blockchain’s sluggish transaction speed is a major concern for enterprises that depend on high-performance legacy transaction processing systems.9 A lack of standards and interoperability between various blockchain platforms and solutions is another challenge.10 Unless blockchain technology can be readily connected to existing enterprise systems, it will be of little utility in large programs and initiatives. Legal and regulatory concerns around data privacy, intellectual property, enforceability of contracts, and choice of jurisdiction are inhibiting the technology’s adoption.11 And businesses are constrained by blockchain’s technical complexity, which limits the feasibility of implementing distributed ledger systems.
https://apnews.com/sponsored/?prx_t=wYAEAVYYzAniAPA
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:04 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:20 pm ^ :good:

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
Some countries are better set up in this regard than the US. Having a lot of hydro, for instance, giving another means of balancing the load profile, which the US doesn’t have the geography for. But this is really a question of planned investment as you say.
what this have to do with NFT madness
Let me rephrase; what does NFT or cryptocurrency or blockchain have to do with solving any actual engineering problem? The answer would be - almost nothing.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:20 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:04 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:20 pm ^ :good:




Some countries are better set up in this regard than the US. Having a lot of hydro, for instance, giving another means of balancing the load profile, which the US doesn’t have the geography for. But this is really a question of planned investment as you say.
what this have to do with NFT madness
Let me rephrase; what does NFT or cryptocurrency or blockchain have to do with solving any actual engineering problem? The answer would be - almost nothing.
Blockchain as reported by the resident energy advisor serves micro grid efficiency so there value added that did not require re-engineering of the grid itself. Much like computer control of car engine efficiencies. Is it engineering? or has technology added layer to mechanics that adds tangible value making it a new aspect of human creation. Both hard and soft "engineering" being aspects of design. At 50+ I am conditioned to think mechanical process when I hear engineering thus the ambiguity.

This doesn't matter however. I am not saying that the NFT craze is a smart or efficient means of creating a new economy. I am not saying it is not a smart or efficient means of creating a new economy.

It is much like the political landscape where choices are limited and outcomes lack guarantee. So people look for something to focus their minds on. The thought of breaking the system is attractive and an easy mantra to get behind for many.

Of course this just creates new sets of problems. This is why I don't disagree with say perhaps Jake's suggested methodology of understanding such things from a modelling perspective. However the tech industry, human society nor life are contained to such ideals. Development is far more rapid than the wisdom gleaned through said development.

I don't disagree with most propositions here. They just don't describe the phenomenon as it is being expressed. It reveals how it is perceived which is great. But none of them are the type to buy NFT so they don't reflect cause. Do they aptly describe potential effect based on industry insights? Of course. I did not question this value however, just the appropriateness in regards to describing the motivators behind it.

:anjali:
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

The conclusion: Blockchain, another one bytes the dust.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:18 pm The conclusion: Blockchain, another one bytes the dust.
I imagine if human reality unfolded according to sagely desires there would be no need for buddhism because Shakyamuni expressed a desire for our liberation. Yet here we are.

Since the coin cap is now about 1.5 trillion it seems there is plenty of money for block chain to fuel its own disruptive purposes outside any one person's desires.

That is outside any of the market Gartner predicts as emerging in the next few years. They predict it to be scalable by 2025. Application value is already in the tens of billions.

https://www.gartner.com/smarterwithgart ... n-spectrum

Top ten technology in 2020 surpassing previous predictions.
https://www.gartner.com/en/documents/39 ... actical-bl
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: NFT madness

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:03 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm No, let me be very clear. I help regulate the industry. I'm very aware of its foibles. That doesn't mean that blockchain is going to come disrupt the energy sector.
OK and this makes you an authority on public interest in NFT and blockchain interests in what manner?

You misread what I said. I never made specific predictions regarding what industries/sector blockchain will disrupt. That is because this is about NFT madness. ....
He was responding directly to something you said when you wrote:
tkp67 wrote:FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I don't believe you were writing about NFT when you wrote that so why should his response to you only be about NFT?
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:03 pm Perhaps it isn't your wheelhouse and the confidence inspired by your position isn't beneficial.
Ditto?
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:03 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm There's nothing magical about blockchain here. Two-way balancing is being done right now, everywhere with high rooftop solar penetration. And to the extent that blockchain can make two-way balancing easier or more efficient, that's great.

But I note that you ignored the concerns that I raised earlier. Here are the biggest threats to grid reliability in the US:

1) extreme weather is becoming more common, and extreme weather makes it harder for thermal plants (gas, coal, nuclear) to run. (It has an effect on renewables as well, but in both California in 2020 and in last month's Texas freeze-up, most of the generation we lost was thermal generation.)

2) to decarbonize the grid, we either need a lot more nuclear plants, which no one wants to build, or we need a lot more transmission lines, to get energy from places where the sun is shining and the wind is blowing to places where it's not, and a lot more utility-scale storage.

Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
Great. Glad to see your position is so meaningful to you. However your position offers no insight on what drives drives blockchain development and adaptation in the world and is completely off topic.
So, to be clear, your answer to the point that you ignored the concerns he raised earlier is to declare them meaningless and off topic?
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:03 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm Since my commentary has been topical in regards to the motivations that are pushing the rollout of blockchain technology across sectors your commentary is not only totally off topic but is meaningless. You don't even understand my perspective and are commenting based on faulty interpretation.

I get it though. A bunch of very conditioned minds with very sharp views on what blockchain and cyrpto mean to their industry who refuse to be shaken by hype which is driving consumer interest for NFT. I even understand the projection of frustration regarding issues that don't process well in such minds. This doesn't mean expressing it as such leads to a reasonable conclusion.

What is the opportunity cost of salaries being spent attempting to cajole others of a one's perspective? When I sat on a board of directors supporting high value businesses one of the exercises of executives was to know at all times their value and to determine how it was being used so it seems appropriate here.
Ah, here is the common refrain, we're too academic or too conditioned, our minds are not open enough to fully grasp the nuance and complexity. Hear this from you a lot.

Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:36 pm
Since the coin cap is now about 1.5 trillion it seems there is plenty of money for block chain to fuel its own disruptive purposes outside any one person's desires.
That capitalization is not money, it represents the unrealized gains of a piece of property, like your house.

Bitcoins are not money, they are property, according to the IRS. In other words, they are not legal tender. They don't even fit the definition of "coins."

https://www.globallegalinsights.com/pra ... ations/usa

See section five, on taxes. One cannot use bitcoin to pay for groceries...well one can, but the tax reporting is onerous, as this web page notes.
That is outside any of the market Gartner predicts as emerging in the next few years. They predict it to be scalable by 2025.
https://101blockchains.com/disadvantages-of-blockchain/

None of these issues are overcome, and the privacy issues is, in particular, a major issue.
Application value is already in the tens of billions.
Not sure what you mean by "application value."
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

jake wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 pm
Ah, here is the common refrain, we're too academic or too conditioned, our minds are not open enough to fully grasp the nuance and complexity. Hear this from you a lot.
That's because we puny mortals cannot possibly comprehend the genius that is tkp67.
Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
He seems to be asserting that you are wasting the money of your companies by arguing with him on company time.
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Re: NFT madness

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:47 pm
Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
He seems to be asserting that you are wasting the money of your companies by arguing with him on company time.
Ah. Well, I'm not currently selling my labor, so....

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Re: NFT madness

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PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:20 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:04 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:20 pm ^ :good:

Some countries are better set up in this regard than the US. Having a lot of hydro, for instance, giving another means of balancing the load profile, which the US doesn’t have the geography for. But this is really a question of planned investment as you say.
what this have to do with NFT madness
Let me rephrase; what does NFT or cryptocurrency or blockchain have to do with solving any actual engineering problem? The answer would be - almost nothing.
I could maybe see it as a method to account for distributed data sources where some assurance of data integrity and origin are important, used for local system control of some kind- serious applications where IOT is not acceptable. But in such an application it would be competing with established and simpler methods- but even then I don't see a win given the computational complexity issue- its a lot easier to use plain old crypto and comsec to do the job. I work inside such organizations, the major issues with integration like this are enterprise boundaries, inertia and legacy requirements, not lack of technology.

In a lot of ways the blockchain hysteria reminds me of the XML hysteria of 10-15 years ago.. "going to change the world have to move everything to XML right now because its gonna fix all the things". and it mostly doesn't- it works if you put enough effort into it and dont mind the downsides.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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jake wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 pmAh, here is the common refrain, we're too academic or too conditioned, our minds are not open enough to fully grasp the nuance and complexity. Hear this from you a lot.

Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
DNS wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:05 am You own some rights to it and can re-sell it, but still bizarre that people are paying for this stuff!
Jake it is simple.

I am discussing the cause and effect behind such hype. Not a discourse on best practices, return on investment or the short sighted aspects of such a movement. The totality of that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread. However that type of commentary serves no benefit that I can tell. If it does I would be greatly indebted to be enlightened to the reasoning.

The minute dialog starts the become personal MANNNN expect me to call it out for what it is. Notice I don't challenge a specific provision (individual egocentric perspective) because it is valid as such. Just not in context to the the phenomenon as an aggregate.

Seems a bit ironic that a perspective that looks at the aggregate is seen as outlandish. Even more so since in the IT industry it is the norm.

Even more ironic that there is a seeming unspoken near consensus in this thread that most virtuous technologies win by proxy. Is that to say companies like Facebook and twitter are pinnacles of human development?

:anjali:
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm Even more ironic that there is a seeming unspoken near consensus in this thread that most virtuous technologies win by proxy. Is that to say companies like Facebook and twitter are pinnacles of human development?

:anjali:
But isn't the unspoken consensus merely an idiosyncratic reflection of the conditioned prevalence in social construction? By reflecting on the application of technology in art, it becomes immediately clear that the limited minds of commentators here instinctively turn away from the four truths. Or perhaps they do this by semi-conscious volition?

:sage:
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:48 am
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm Even more ironic that there is a seeming unspoken near consensus in this thread that most virtuous technologies win by proxy. Is that to say companies like Facebook and twitter are pinnacles of human development?

:anjali:
But isn't the unspoken consensus merely an idiosyncratic reflection of the conditioned prevalence in social construction?
A self imposed social construction is nothing more than a reflection of latent desire. Systemic racism works along the same measures.
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:48 amBy reflecting on the application of technology in art, it becomes immediately clear that the limited minds of commentators here instinctively turn away from the four truths. Or perhaps they do this by semi-conscious volition?

:sage:
Understanding the desires and drives of others doesn't require an intrinsic self. Observation of cause and effect is just that. Claiming objectivity is categorically impossible because it violates the four truths underscores the limitations of provision. It doesn't acknowledge the influence of billions of other humans.

Buddhism isn't about denying reality it is about seeing it with obfuscation of self. Now I can understand reverence for the state and the hesitation to claim such a position. I also understand that people can express varying degrees of objectiveness according to desire. Since it is a necessary trait in many professions I am confident if can pull it off anyone with a degree and such hallowed positions amongst themselves.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/2196073/

IBM, Tech Mahindra collaborate to create USD 1billion ecosystem in 3 years
IBM and Tech Mahindra on Tuesday said they are deepening their collaboration, especially in areas like 5G, hybrid cloud, automation and cybersecurity, as the two tech giants work towards building a billion dollar ecosystem over the next three years. Some of the key initiatives underway include launch of Tech Mahindra’s Blue Marble on IBM Cloud for Telecommunications to drive 5G momentum, collaboration to grow cybersecurity business with IBM Cloud Pak for Security, and strengthening and expanding portfolio through cloud based offerings.

The partnership will also see co-creation and co-innovation through innovation labs and Centres of Excellence as the two companies strengthen their partnership to pursue the USD 1 trillion Hybrid Cloud market opportunity. “We see the opportunity in three things. In the near term, we see the opportunity around hybrid cloud and AI. And then in the medium to longer term, we see an opportunity in quantum,” IBM Chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna told reporters during a virtual briefing.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:47 pm
jake wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 pm
Ah, here is the common refrain, we're too academic or too conditioned, our minds are not open enough to fully grasp the nuance and complexity. Hear this from you a lot.
That's because we puny mortals cannot possibly comprehend the genius that is tkp67.
Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
He seems to be asserting that you are wasting the money of your companies by arguing with him on company time.
No what I am saying is if you took the opportunity cost that is being lost that is the actualized value one's expertise lends to the thread. Simple ROI, basic accounting. Nothing that is beyond you.
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:32 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:48 am
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm Even more ironic that there is a seeming unspoken near consensus in this thread that most virtuous technologies win by proxy. Is that to say companies like Facebook and twitter are pinnacles of human development?

:anjali:
But isn't the unspoken consensus merely an idiosyncratic reflection of the conditioned prevalence in social construction?
A self imposed social construction is nothing more than a reflection of latent desire. Systemic racism works along the same measures.
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:48 amBy reflecting on the application of technology in art, it becomes immediately clear that the limited minds of commentators here instinctively turn away from the four truths. Or perhaps they do this by semi-conscious volition?

:sage:
Understanding the desires and drives of others doesn't require an intrinsic self. Observation of cause and effect is just that. Claiming objectivity is categorically impossible because it violates the four truths underscores the limitations of provision. It doesn't acknowledge the influence of billions of other humans.

Buddhism isn't about denying reality it is about seeing it with obfuscation of self. Now I can understand reverence for the state and the hesitation to claim such a position. I also understand that people can express varying degrees of objectiveness according to desire. Since it is a necessary trait in many professions I am confident if can pull it off anyone with a degree and such hallowed positions amongst themselves.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/2196073/

IBM, Tech Mahindra collaborate to create USD 1billion ecosystem in 3 years
IBM and Tech Mahindra on Tuesday said they are deepening their collaboration, especially in areas like 5G, hybrid cloud, automation and cybersecurity, as the two tech giants work towards building a billion dollar ecosystem over the next three years. Some of the key initiatives underway include launch of Tech Mahindra’s Blue Marble on IBM Cloud for Telecommunications to drive 5G momentum, collaboration to grow cybersecurity business with IBM Cloud Pak for Security, and strengthening and expanding portfolio through cloud based offerings.

The partnership will also see co-creation and co-innovation through innovation labs and Centres of Excellence as the two companies strengthen their partnership to pursue the USD 1 trillion Hybrid Cloud market opportunity. “We see the opportunity in three things. In the near term, we see the opportunity around hybrid cloud and AI. And then in the medium to longer term, we see an opportunity in quantum,” IBM Chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna told reporters during a virtual briefing.
:rolling:

The shark has indeed been jumped.
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Re: NFT madness

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm
jake wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:13 pmAh, here is the common refrain, we're too academic or too conditioned, our minds are not open enough to fully grasp the nuance and complexity. Hear this from you a lot.

Not sure what point you are trying to make by talking of the "opportunity cost of salaries" (mixing two thing here, btw) that we are wasting trying to force you to our perspective. What are you trying to say? that we are somehow wasting money talking to you?
DNS wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:05 am You own some rights to it and can re-sell it, but still bizarre that people are paying for this stuff!
Jake it is simple.

I am discussing the cause and effect behind such hype. Not a discourse on best practices, return on investment or the short sighted aspects of such a movement. The totality of that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread. However that type of commentary serves no benefit that I can tell. If it does I would be greatly indebted to be enlightened to the reasoning.
tkp67, I appreciate that is what you think you are doing but, as has been repeatedly mentioned, it is not how most people understand your writing, at all. You have a very unique vocabulary that is almost indecipherable at times. As a reader, many times what you post makes no sense or seems to have no obvious connection to what anyone else is discussing. I am sure in your mind there is a connection but you frequently neglect to explain, in clear language for a reader, how you traveled from A to B to π^2.

For example, you say you are simply discussing the cause and effect behind such hype. Which hype, exactly? The NFT madness? Okay but you have never written clearly which specific factors you consider to be "cause" and which you categorize as "effect" nor how they are linked (effects result from causes, there is a relationship there). For example, how does your claim that bitcoin solves grid unreliability factor into either a cause or an effect of the hype linked to NFT? Or what on earth does IBM's announcement they're working with India on cloud computing have to do with any of the issues mentioned by others? Is this a cause of hype? We are frequently left to guess. Perhaps the IBM press release is somehow related to posters' comments about security of data entrusted to strangers? I don't know.

Communication is a two-way street. Many people here have made great effort to understand you and give you time. At some point you have to make more effort on your own side to communicate in a way that makes sense to other people. The reasons for our lack of understanding can't always just be because of our inferior minds. At a certain point you need to wonder if there is too much "packet loss" in your messaging.

tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm The minute dialog starts the become personal MANNNN expect me to call it out for what it is. Notice I don't challenge a specific provision (individual egocentric perspective) because it is valid as such. Just not in context to the the phenomenon as an aggregate.
See, again, I'm sure this makes total sense to you but what personal dialogue? What is a "provision?" What "phenomenon" are you talking about? What on earth do you mean by "aggregate"? Have you considered just because you perceive some dialogue to be personal that doesn't mean it was intended as such or that anyone else understands it to be "personal?"
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm Seems a bit ironic that a perspective that looks at the aggregate is seen as outlandish. Even more so since in the IT industry it is the norm.
Another example of some really confusing communication. Aggregate of what? Which of your posts presented some perspective of whatever an aggregate is? How is it considered outlandish (e.g. what did someone write)?

"even more so since in the IT industry it is the norm." To what does "it" refer??
tkp67 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:45 pm Even more ironic that there is a seeming unspoken near consensus in this thread that most virtuous technologies win by proxy. Is that to say companies like Facebook and twitter are pinnacles of human development?
Who on earth has made this argument? Please quote the text you have read in this thread that allows you to draw this conclusion?

I realize that this post borders on meta-discussion which is not allowed per TOS but I feel it is a necessary step to fully understand your contributions to this topic so the discussion may continue.
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

For those lulled by today’s bull market, remember that you own a piece of paper. Low-yielding U.S. Treasury bills and bonds are safe because they are backed by the U.S. government, by cash flow of tax dollars and by the country’s assets (think land, not Fort Knox). Stocks are backed by expectations of future earnings, but if you overpay during periods of high expectations (like today), then your downside is huge. Crypto is backed simply by the faith of those who proclaim it is a store of value. Even art and exotic cars and silly NFT tokens are backed only by faith the wealthy will overpay for uniqueness. Faith becomes scarce when the selling starts.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-s ... opin_pos_1
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nfts-expla ... lista_pos5

In 2017 and 2018, many poured money into cryptocurrency startups through a controversial fundraising method called initial coin offerings. Such booms preceded a rise in trading groups that manipulated the price of cryptocurrencies, causing losses for others.

The value of these digital collectibles depends on the assumption that someone else is willing to pay more for it than you did, analysts say, noting similarities between their big gains and recent social-media-fueled frenzies in meme stocks like GameStop and Koss that led to heavy losses for some individual investors.

“There are people who have been conditioned by cryptocurrencies to believe that just the fact that it can be owned makes it valuable,” said Jorge Stolfi, a computer science professor at Brazil’s State University of Campinas. “People just 100% believe that this thing has value, but in fact it doesn’t because there’s no way to get value out of it except for selling it to another investor.”
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Virgo »

I have somehow entered the ethereal dimension. :thinking: This must be where ethereum is mined...

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