NFT madness

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Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm
The IEEE commentary talks to all the points you mention and they don't hold up under said commentary.
What the IEEE claims and what works in the real world are two different things.
Genjo Conan
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Genjo Conan »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:27 pm
FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I work in energy regulation. People have been telling me that blockchain is going to revolutionize the way we manage the grid for ten years. It hasn't happened yet. When blockchain can keep thermal plants from downrating due to extreme heat or cold, or figure out how to install utility-scale storage nationwide at a reasonable cost, or put in a bunch of transmission lines, then I'll be really interested. Until then, it might have some niche applications, but to assert that "blockchain offers solutions to all the things [he] mentions" is either hucksterism or delusion.
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: NFT madness

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:27 pm You are exhausted because of the self imposed rigidity of your own thought processes. I know I didn't put those paradigms there.

FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I'll admit to being slightly curious in hearing what "paradigms" you think I have rigidly stuck in my head.

Again, really not sure how blockchain does anything for the Texas power grid issues last month, but okay. I'll trust your assessment. Problem solved. moving on....
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: NFT madness

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:27 pm
FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I work in energy regulation. People have been telling me that blockchain is going to revolutionize the way we manage the grid for ten years. It hasn't happened yet. When blockchain can keep thermal plants from downrating due to extreme heat or cold, or figure out how to install utility-scale storage nationwide at a reasonable cost, or put in a bunch of transmission lines, then I'll be really interested. Until then, it might have some niche applications, but to assert that "blockchain offers solutions to all the things [he] mentions" is either hucksterism or delusion.
The dreaded R word? Don't envy your work (actually, I don't envy the "market's" reaction to your work) but greatly respect it. I work in the loosy-goosey realm of policy. Would enjoy meaningful discussion on inclusion and equity in the energy market, particularly as it pertains to investments in efficiency improvements and renewables back in the States. Any one in your field mentioning sufficiency?
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm
Technology evolves too rapidly to pretend conceptual limitations matter. That was the point of the AOL comment.
You've clearly never worked in a datacenter, worked in a software project, or designed a database once in your entire life.
Genjo Conan
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Genjo Conan »

jake wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:00 am enjoy meaningful discussion on inclusion and equity in the energy market, particularly as it pertains to investments in efficiency improvements and renewables back in the States. Any one in your field mentioning sufficiency?
I'm not sure what you mean by sufficiency in this context? I apologize if this is a term of art that I'm not aware of. We are certainly talking about inclusion and equity issues: things like high-efficiency appliances, electric cars, and rooftop solar are all subsidized, both directly and indirectly, but the uptake is still mostly by rich white people in nice neighborhoods. It's been very difficult to craft policies that incentivize uptake in disadvantaged or low-income communities, and a lot of brainpower is going into the problem.
GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: NFT madness

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Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:07 am
jake wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:00 am enjoy meaningful discussion on inclusion and equity in the energy market, particularly as it pertains to investments in efficiency improvements and renewables back in the States. Any one in your field mentioning sufficiency?
I'm not sure what you mean by sufficiency in this context? I apologize if this is a term of art that I'm not aware of. We are certainly talking about inclusion and equity issues: things like high-efficiency appliances, electric cars, and rooftop solar are all subsidized, both directly and indirectly, but the uptake is still mostly by rich white people in nice neighborhoods. It's been very difficult to craft policies that incentivize uptake in disadvantaged or low-income communities, and a lot of brainpower is going into the problem.
That's my fault, brain rot from peer review all day. (Apologies to DNS and others for driving this so far off topic). If you consider the I=PAT equation (Impact=Population*Affluence*Technology) then the majority of efforts focus on improving efficiency (Technology) to reduce over-all impact. Sufficiency, in this context, addresses affluence. Consumption and behavioral patterns, social custom, etc. which aim to complement efficiency measures as well as address the challenges brought on by Jevons paradox. So, in this context it is about reducing watts per lumen as well as lumens per square foot (I don't need the light in my closet the same level as a surgical suite). I was only asking because the upcoming IPCC Assessment Report explores this in some depth in several chapters and as you work in the industry I'm curious if it is bubbling around in your world, too.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:27 pm
FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I work in energy regulation. People have been telling me that blockchain is going to revolutionize the way we manage the grid for ten years. It hasn't happened yet. When blockchain can keep thermal plants from downrating due to extreme heat or cold, or figure out how to install utility-scale storage nationwide at a reasonable cost, or put in a bunch of transmission lines, then I'll be really interested. Until then, it might have some niche applications, but to assert that "blockchain offers solutions to all the things [he] mentions" is either hucksterism or delusion.
You are in the industry and don't mention existing energy interests with competing interest halting progress? Their integrity around climate change is indicative of the corruption and bias this industry suffers.

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/ja ... ergy-syste

Japanese utility TEPCO uses blockchain to trial bi-directional energy system of the future
The experiment is to be conducted at Toyota’s high tech campus, Higashi-Fuji Technical Center in Shizuoka, on the southern coast of Japan’s main island, Honshu. TEPCO said in its release that the trial paves the way for the creation of a two-way flowing, intelligent or ‘autonomous’ electrical system, which is the natural progression from today’s centralised, large-scale electricity networks in which energy only flows one way – outwards from the grid and central generators connected to it.
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/eu ... y-platform

European grid operators launch blockchain-based flexibility platform
A press release said that “batteries from millions of households will stabilise the electricity grid in the future,” with the Equigy platform using blockchain technology - which creates a secure, distributed and transparent ledger of all transactions - to allow the capabilities of even small household systems of a couple of kilowatts to be aggregated to deliver the services traditionally supplied by large-scale fossil fuel generation. TenneT has previously hosted a couple of related 'virtual power plant' (VPP) trial projects in Germany and the Netherlands with residential battery storage manufacturer sonnen, while Terna has already enabled distributed energy resources such as home batteries aggregated into VPPs to participate in some grid-balancing opportunities.

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/so ... n-flexibil
Blockchain technology and a digital trading platform is enabling sonnen’s latest virtual power plant (VPP) project in northeast Germany to store wind energy that would otherwise be curtailed and ‘lost’.
Last edited by tkp67 on Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:11 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm
The IEEE commentary talks to all the points you mention and they don't hold up under said commentary.
What the IEEE claims and what works in the real world are two different things.
Research their claims in the past and how often their insight is actualized by reality. When you have something tangible let me know.

Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:02 am
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm
Technology evolves too rapidly to pretend conceptual limitations matter. That was the point of the AOL comment.
You've clearly never worked in a datacenter, worked in a software project, or designed a database once in your entire life.
Wrong on all three accounts.

I maintained a Microsoft partnership for close to 20 years. Was also an executive for a leading Novell integrator.

The bias here I experience is special and very much the result of conditioning.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2118307184

Blockchain technology in the energy sector: A systematic review of challenges and opportunities

Conclusions

To conclude, blockchain or distributed ledger technologies can clearly benefit energy system operations, markets and consumers. They offer disintermediation, transparency and tamper-proof transactions, but most importantly, blockchains offer novel solutions for empowering consumers and small renewable generators to play a more active role in the energy market and monetise their assets. Blockchains have enabled applications of sharing-economy in the energy sector, which has prompted several authors to speak about novel market models and energy democratisation [79]. Many research and commercial parties are currently pursuing blockchain innovation in the energy sector. Blockchains are a fast-moving area of research and development, therefore a review on this emergent technology is required to improve understanding, inform the body of knowledge on blockchains and realise their potential.

The contribution of this work is to provide a timely, academic-led review on DLT in the energy sector. First, this paper reviewed various academic and industrial sources, and presented an overview on the fundamentals of blockchain technologies, including system architectures and distributed consensus algorithms, critical components of performance for blockchain ecosystems. Next, the paper presented several energy use cases along with an in-depth discussion on benefits and issues blockchain solutions are facing for each application. Next, we provided a systematic review on a broad range of blockchain activities that showcased the specific areas in which energy system stakeholders and industrial parties are pursuing innovation. Our work shows that most projects are in an early development phase, and research is still ongoing on key improvement areas that would allow desired scalability, decentralisation and security. Blockchain technologies can be disruptive for energy companies and face a large variety of challenges to achieve market penetration, including legal, regulatory and competition barriers. Additional research initiatives, trials, projects and collaborations will show if the technology can reach its full potential, prove its commercial viability and finally be adopted in the mainstream.
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:31 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:03 pm

Blockchain and cryptocurrency are not separable.
Blockchain is not particularly innovative. It is useful for some kinds of data storage, and not useful for other kinds of data storage, where one is better off using relational databases that use SQL.
Decentralization within the internet ecosystem is what makes performance different.

Centralization of systems such as this is antiquated and the transitional nexus for corruption.
No, complete nonsense

Go back to undergrad economics textbooks for a definition of money and you’ll see - store of value, means of exchange. Crypto is far worse than existing currencies on both of those grounds.

If you’re really interested in the ‘system’ you will know that the electricity consumed even now to support just Bitcoin exceeds the power demand of quite a few countries. Why? Because decentralization for this particular task is hugely inefficient. It requires massive duplication of records, vs traditional banking systems, where centralization is far more efficient.

There are some applications of blockchain which are more efficient than central registers. Those are mostly in engineering, where a group of companies in a supply chain need to keep collective maintenance/parts records that everyone shares. But those systems involve hundreds of participants. Not millions. So the power demands are much less. And yes, those are applications of blockchain that have nothing at all to do with cryptocurrency.

The cryptocurrency markets are dominated by a small number of whales who periodically make outsized paper profits at the expense of retail investors. Building or selling large positions is almost impossible because there’s very little continuous liquidity. Transactions are extremely slow and cumbersome, frictional costs are huge because participants regularly lose investments due to technology failure or fraud.

The idea that crypto will somehow save the world is a crock. All the problems in financial markets that crypto was supposed to solve were things that had been solved decades ago. Crypto is pushed by a bunch of hysterical tech investors who don’t know the first thing about economics.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:46 am
Go back to undergrad economics textbooks for a definition of money and you’ll see - store of value, means of exchange. Crypto is far worse than existing currencies on both of those grounds.
Breath deep and reread my posts.

I made clear to exclude fiat value and none of the article I posted suggest value from that perceptive.

That does not mean tech won't spend (and earn) billions establishing a market using perceived value as a driver.

It is the established reality we are experiencing at this very moment.

Also there is a fundamental disconnect with how a tech generation perceives virtual assets. HUGE.

Many think money is not backed whose value is built on conceptual belief and not actuality. They think it is disingenuous to pretend money isn't subjectively valued without true accountability. This is a driver to the virtual economy. If it is a choice they choose this. Which goes back to the very question asked by this thread. Why?

Based on the reaction I received in this thread they might be on to something.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:33 am
I maintained a Microsoft partnership for close to 20 years. Was also an executive for a leading Novell integrator.
Glad to be wrong. But it makes your visionary stance towards blockchain all the more puzzling. It’s all still pretty speculative, and depends on a level of voluntary cooperation which is difficult at best to find in competitive markets, for example, convincing people to install Novell enterprise-wide.
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:01 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:46 am
Go back to undergrad economics textbooks for a definition of money and you’ll see - store of value, means of exchange. Crypto is far worse than existing currencies on both of those grounds.
Breath deep and reread my posts.

I made clear to exclude fiat value and none of the article I posted suggest value from that perceptive.

That does not mean tech won't spend (and earn) billions establishing a market using perceived value as a driver.

It is the established reality we are experiencing at this very moment.

Also there is a fundamental disconnect with how a tech generation perceives virtual assets. HUGE.

Many think money is not backed whose value is built on conceptual belief and not actuality. They think it is disingenuous to pretend money isn't subjectively valued without true accountability. This is a driver to the virtual economy. If it is a choice they choose this. Which goes back to the very question asked by this thread. Why?

Based on the reaction I received in this thread they might be on to something.

More aphasia.

The realistic applications of blockchain are limited and mostly in the field of supply chain and maintenance tracking.

The feasible applications in actual finance are scams and speculation.

I’ve been around long enough to realize that media hysteria and people making fortunes are not reliable indicators that something will be around a decade into the future.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:15 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:33 am
I maintained a Microsoft partnership for close to 20 years. Was also an executive for a leading Novell integrator.
Glad to be wrong. But it makes your visionary stance towards blockchain all the more puzzling. It’s all still pretty speculative, and depends on a level of voluntary cooperation which is difficult at best to find in competitive markets, for example, convincing people to install Novell enterprise-wide.
It isn't my stance. It is the stance of the people with interests in that market. I see great potential but I can't speculate how this potential will be actualized. I don't agree with many aspects of what drives technology these days. Disruption for the sake of disruption. Constant technology expansion is an ecological nightmare. However it does represent the next stage of internet cloud based technologies.

Health record access is an interesting application for example.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:43 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:01 am
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:46 am
Go back to undergrad economics textbooks for a definition of money and you’ll see - store of value, means of exchange. Crypto is far worse than existing currencies on both of those grounds.
Breath deep and reread my posts.

I made clear to exclude fiat value and none of the article I posted suggest value from that perceptive.

That does not mean tech won't spend (and earn) billions establishing a market using perceived value as a driver.

It is the established reality we are experiencing at this very moment.

Also there is a fundamental disconnect with how a tech generation perceives virtual assets. HUGE.

Many think money is not backed whose value is built on conceptual belief and not actuality. They think it is disingenuous to pretend money isn't subjectively valued without true accountability. This is a driver to the virtual economy. If it is a choice they choose this. Which goes back to the very question asked by this thread. Why?

Based on the reaction I received in this thread they might be on to something.

More aphasia.

The realistic applications of blockchain are limited and mostly in the field of supply chain and maintenance tracking.

The feasible applications in actual finance are scams and speculation.

I’ve been around long enough to realize that media hysteria and people making fortunes are not reliable indicators that something will be around a decade into the future.
They aren't direct indicators of bitcoin's long term value but the money they are generating is being spent to build out the industry.

For example and to the topic. One of the purchasers of the art mentioned that it might lose all value over the term but the investment into the future of virtual art was worth the investment at face value. Reportedly young people making a seeming windfall in digital currency incites discretionary spending. From what I understand the artists received compensation from these sales driving some of the momentum.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:51 amit does represent the next stage of internet cloud based technologies.

Health record access is an interesting application for example.
As I said, as a technology for storing serial records, it’s fine. It simply has realworld limitations.
PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:12 am
They aren't direct indicators of bitcoin's long term value but the money they are generating is being spent to build out the industry.

For example and to the topic. One of the purchasers of the art mentioned that it might lose all value over the term but the investment into the future of virtual art was worth the investment at face value. Reportedly young people making a seeming windfall in digital currency incites discretionary spending. From what I understand the artists received compensation from these sales driving some of the momentum.
What’s being “built out”, exactly?

The people doing work on distributed records in actual real world applications are a completely different set of people from the Bitcoin fanboys on social media. What cryptocurrency is promoting investment in is wasteful use of resources to “create” something that has zero utility.

The idea that ‘virtual art’ is somehow comparable to editions of prints or photos is nonsense. Editions only have value if they are limited editions. Open editions are very hard to sell and priced very low, because they have no scarcity value. Virtual art is not even comparable to open editions. Why? Because you can download exactly the same thing for a cost of zero.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

Post by tkp67 »

PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:28 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:12 am
They aren't direct indicators of bitcoin's long term value but the money they are generating is being spent to build out the industry.

For example and to the topic. One of the purchasers of the art mentioned that it might lose all value over the term but the investment into the future of virtual art was worth the investment at face value. Reportedly young people making a seeming windfall in digital currency incites discretionary spending. From what I understand the artists received compensation from these sales driving some of the momentum.
What’s being “built out”, exactly?

The people doing work on distributed records in actual real world applications are a completely different set of people from the Bitcoin fanboys on social media. What cryptocurrency is promoting investment in is wasteful use of resources to “create” something that has zero utility.

The idea that ‘virtual art’ is somehow comparable to editions of prints or photos is nonsense. Editions only have value if they are limited editions. Open editions are very hard to sell and priced very low, because they have no scarcity value. Virtual art is not even comparable to open editions. Why? Because you can download exactly the same thing for a cost of zero.
A virtual market and economy.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:18 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:28 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:12 am
They aren't direct indicators of bitcoin's long term value but the money they are generating is being spent to build out the industry.

For example and to the topic. One of the purchasers of the art mentioned that it might lose all value over the term but the investment into the future of virtual art was worth the investment at face value. Reportedly young people making a seeming windfall in digital currency incites discretionary spending. From what I understand the artists received compensation from these sales driving some of the momentum.
What’s being “built out”, exactly?

The people doing work on distributed records in actual real world applications are a completely different set of people from the Bitcoin fanboys on social media. What cryptocurrency is promoting investment in is wasteful use of resources to “create” something that has zero utility.

The idea that ‘virtual art’ is somehow comparable to editions of prints or photos is nonsense. Editions only have value if they are limited editions. Open editions are very hard to sell and priced very low, because they have no scarcity value. Virtual art is not even comparable to open editions. Why? Because you can download exactly the same thing for a cost of zero.
A virtual market and economy.
:popcorn:
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