NFT madness

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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/han ... =1#page=14

Creation of Blockchain and a New Ecosystem


Research Institute of Economy, Trade and Industry (RIETI), Tokyo, Japan
The Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade, and Industry regards the process of incorporating new information technology, such as artificial intelligence (AI), Internet of Things (IoT), and big data analysis into society as the Fourth Industrial Revolution. This view is reflected in the Fifth Science and Technology Basic Plan. The plan advocates Society 5.0, in which cyber space and physical space are integrated to support an affluent and human-friendly society. Computer scientists regard the interconnection of industry and society through information technologies, with people creating and using such technologies, as a single ecosystem. They have actively participated in the design and discussion of such an integrated ecosystem. Blockchain is considered to be at the core of such a cyber ecosystem.

Terms like the Fourth Industrial Revolution, Society 5.0, and cyber ecosystems seem colorful and might appear rather farfetched. However, when placed in the context of the current states of the economy and technological development, one realizes that the new concepts are rather persuasive. This is because the technological innovation that is about to start is very unique in the long history of technological advancement since the First Industrial Revolution.

Today, we are witnessing the introduction of a new type of productive resource into our economy—data. Data is a new productive resource that had no economic value in the past. Until a few years ago, there was no way to gather large volumes of data that could capture daily life accurately, nor were there any computing technologies that made it possible to analyze an extremely large volume of data to explain complicated human interactions on both production and consumption sides of an economy. This has changed all of a sudden. Many productive resources,such as coal and oil,suddenly became valuable during past industrial revolutions. However, they merely replaced already existing resources. Coal replaced firewood and charcoal; oil replaced coal. Data, in contrast, does not replace any existing resources but is born as a completely new type of productive resource.

In short, industrial revolution in the past meant destroying existing resources and replacing them with new resources. Sitting in the middle of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, in contrast, data does not replace any existing resources.

From an economic viewpoint, this difference between past industrial revolution sand the Fourth Industrial Revolution is large. Previously, the ownership of oil was assigned to the owner of the land containing the oil, just as the ownership of coal was assigned before oil was utilized as a major energy source. In the case of data,we have not established a clear agreement on who owns the data. As Nobel laureate Ronald Coase (1910–2013) pointed out, the assignment of proper ownership rights is a prerequisite for the formation of a market.

In these circumstances, blockchain technology opens important avenues to make efficient and fair use of data. In a broader sense, this technology is also referred to as a “decentralized ledger,” which can involve a large number of unspecified people to contribute to the effective and fair use of data in a decentralized manner.

In summary, blockchain is expected to play an important role in connecting information technology and technologies such as AI, IoT, and big data with our lives. From this point of view, this book investigates the roles that blockchain plays in a virtual ecosystem from various angles, in particular, from the following three viewpoints:(1) data ownership, (2) data transactions, and (3) data industry.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm
:popcorn:
See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

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tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm
:popcorn:
See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm
:popcorn:
See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
What does that have to do with blockchain technology changing the internet ecosystem?

If you read the research paper from Japan you will notice it speaks to the very dynamic being discussed by the OP. Cause, Effect and purpose.

Your argument doesn't hold up to reality either way. Ask Netflix how they were able to support streaming a few years after establishing a business model. When they first started streaming wasn't a viable business model.
Last edited by tkp67 on Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
narhwal90
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Re: NFT madness

Post by narhwal90 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:24 pm
:popcorn:
See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
Not so, observe the rush to outsource everything to the cloud and office365. once the data leaves your servers its no longer yours. When the vendor abuse becomes too onerous I suppose the pendulum will swing back. The opportunity to outsource and realize short term savings on the balance sheet looks irresistible I suppose.

Seems to me blockchain's primary application so far is to create hype and expensive consultants.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:32 pm

See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
What does that have to do with blockchain technology changing the internet ecosystem?

If you read the research paper from Japan you will notice it speaks to the very dynamic being discussed by the OP. Cause, Effect and purpose.

Your argument doesn't hold up to reality either way. Ask Netflix how they were able to support streaming a few years after establishing a business model. When they first started streaming wasn't a viable business model.
These are entirely different issues.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:32 pm

See he above and let me know if you need some ghee for your popcorn

:popcorn:
As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
Not so, observe the rush to outsource everything to the cloud and office365. once the data leaves your servers its no longer yours. When the vendor abuse becomes too onerous I suppose the pendulum will swing back. The opportunity to outsource and realize short term savings on the balance sheet looks irresistible I suppose.

Seems to me blockchain's primary application so far is to create hype and expensive consultants.
Service providers agree to provide security for ones proprietary data. That’s not true with a blockchain applications. Blockchain requires third party intervention to manage data integrity.

Blockchain only functions if every node has a full copy of the data. That’s inherently inefficient. That’s why it can’t scale.
narhwal90
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Re: NFT madness

Post by narhwal90 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:36 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm

As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
Not so, observe the rush to outsource everything to the cloud and office365. once the data leaves your servers its no longer yours. When the vendor abuse becomes too onerous I suppose the pendulum will swing back. The opportunity to outsource and realize short term savings on the balance sheet looks irresistible I suppose.

Seems to me blockchain's primary application so far is to create hype and expensive consultants.
Service providers agree to provide security for ones proprietary data. That’s not true with a blockchain applications. Blockchain requires third party intervention to manage data integrity.

Blockchain only functions if every node has a full copy of the data. That’s inherently inefficient. That’s why it can’t scale.
Service providers agree to the letter of the contract, to the extent it can be enforced. I'm involved with a move of systems into AWS as we speak and its personally shocking to see how quickly an organization can decide that it doesn't need to run its own hardware and transitions to a model where it pays an external organization for access to its own sensitive internal systems and data.

I don't see redundancy as a big problem- storage is cheap and duplication provides redundancy which has its own value- otoh I wonder if the ledger size and computational overhead will limit the scaling. It wouldn't suprise me if blockchain finds its niches where either the money is there to cover the scaling costs (ie finance), or where it can be small, and the world moves on.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:30 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:40 pm

As I said, no company is going to place its sensitive data in the hands of strangers, for any reason.
What does that have to do with blockchain technology changing the internet ecosystem?

If you read the research paper from Japan you will notice it speaks to the very dynamic being discussed by the OP. Cause, Effect and purpose.

Your argument doesn't hold up to reality either way. Ask Netflix how they were able to support streaming a few years after establishing a business model. When they first started streaming wasn't a viable business model.
These are entirely different issues.
You are manufacturing the issue of blockchain being less than robust than sql since it is not being provisioned as a replacement. You are also discounting the provisioning being done by other countries for the very point being discussed without a basis. I presented Japan's assessment. Bangladesh comes to mind as does India. Would you like citations?
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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services providers are third parties.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

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narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:36 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:20 pm

Not so, observe the rush to outsource everything to the cloud and office365. once the data leaves your servers its no longer yours. When the vendor abuse becomes too onerous I suppose the pendulum will swing back. The opportunity to outsource and realize short term savings on the balance sheet looks irresistible I suppose.

Seems to me blockchain's primary application so far is to create hype and expensive consultants.
Service providers agree to provide security for ones proprietary data. That’s not true with a blockchain applications. Blockchain requires third party intervention to manage data integrity.

Blockchain only functions if every node has a full copy of the data. That’s inherently inefficient. That’s why it can’t scale.
Service providers agree to the letter of the contract, to the extent it can be enforced. I'm involved with a move of systems into AWS as we speak and its personally shocking to see how quickly an organization can decide that it doesn't need to run its own hardware and transitions to a model where it pays an external organization for access to its own sensitive internal systems and data.
There is a cost/benefit analysis running such decisions. Having ones own equipment does not assure security—look at the just discovered MS exchange/outlook hack.

The “cloud” is just a bunch of externally located virtual servers. No different than web hosting 20 years ago, other than scale.
I don't see redundancy as a big problem- storage is cheap and duplication provides redundancy which has its own value- otoh I wonder if the ledger size and computational overhead will limit the scaling.
Yes, that’s the point.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:09 pm services providers are third parties.
I am referring to the external authorities that are supposedly responsible for ensuring data block integrity in the blockchain model.
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Re: NFT madness

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With targets everywhere I will be employed for a long time. That is all I have to add. :rolling:

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PeterC
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Re: NFT madness

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narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:56 pm storage is cheap and duplication provides redundancy which has its own value- otoh I wonder if the ledger size and computational overhead will limit the scaling. It wouldn't suprise me if blockchain finds its niches where either the money is there to cover the scaling costs (ie finance), or where it can be small, and the world moves on.
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

When you take a massive step back from the hype, there are some useful applications of distributed ledgers, but they’re mostly industrial - machinery which multiple different contractors work on where lots of parts need to be traceable and certified before use. In other words, completely different from the sort of applications people get excited about, which are mostly financial speculation, money laundering and PR.
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Re: NFT madness

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tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:09 pm I presented Japan's assessment. Bangladesh comes to mind as does India. Would you like citations?
You copied and pasted a paper written by a mid-level researcher in a windowless office somewhere who was told by his boss that they need to be publishing more on cool tech trends. I would certainly not call it “Japan’s Assessment”. But please, tell us what’s going on in Bangladesh.
Malcolm
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Re: NFT madness

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PeterC wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:41 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:56 pm storage is cheap and duplication provides redundancy which has its own value- otoh I wonder if the ledger size and computational overhead will limit the scaling. It wouldn't suprise me if blockchain finds its niches where either the money is there to cover the scaling costs (ie finance), or where it can be small, and the world moves on.
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
Yup, also an environmental travesty.
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Genjo Conan »

jake wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:22 am
That's my fault, brain rot from peer review all day. (Apologies to DNS and others for driving this so far off topic). If you consider the I=PAT equation (Impact=Population*Affluence*Technology) then the majority of efforts focus on improving efficiency (Technology) to reduce over-all impact. Sufficiency, in this context, addresses affluence. Consumption and behavioral patterns, social custom, etc. which aim to complement efficiency measures as well as address the challenges brought on by Jevons paradox. So, in this context it is about reducing watts per lumen as well as lumens per square foot (I don't need the light in my closet the same level as a surgical suite). I was only asking because the upcoming IPCC Assessment Report explores this in some depth in several chapters and as you work in the industry I'm curious if it is bubbling around in your world, too.
Ah, gotcha. I'm not aware of anything that we're doing to either model or incentivize consumer usage patterns at such a granular level. (By "we" here, I can only speak to my agency and to the sister agencies with whom we work the most closely.) The levers that we have to use are almost entirely price signals at the household meter level, so we use things like time-of-use rates and demand response incentives to shift marginal load to times when energy is cheap, abundant, and (preferably) green. And while we have some influence on so-called "behind the meter" behavior (subsidies for rooftop solar or heat-pump water heaters are both behind-the-meter subsidies), we don't have any real insight on how consumers use any particular appliance.
Genjo Conan
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Re: NFT madness

Post by Genjo Conan »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:29 am
Genjo Conan wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:27 pm
FWIW The power grid is safest under blockchain technology the IEEE discusses this. Blockchain offers solutions to all the things you mention.
I work in energy regulation. People have been telling me that blockchain is going to revolutionize the way we manage the grid for ten years. It hasn't happened yet. When blockchain can keep thermal plants from downrating due to extreme heat or cold, or figure out how to install utility-scale storage nationwide at a reasonable cost, or put in a bunch of transmission lines, then I'll be really interested. Until then, it might have some niche applications, but to assert that "blockchain offers solutions to all the things [he] mentions" is either hucksterism or delusion.
You are in the industry and don't mention existing energy interests with competing interest halting progress? Their integrity around climate change is indicative of the corruption and bias this industry suffers.
No, let me be very clear. I help regulate the industry. I'm very aware of its foibles. That doesn't mean that blockchain is going to come disrupt the energy sector.
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/ja ... ergy-syste

Japanese utility TEPCO uses blockchain to trial bi-directional energy system of the future
The experiment is to be conducted at Toyota’s high tech campus, Higashi-Fuji Technical Center in Shizuoka, on the southern coast of Japan’s main island, Honshu. TEPCO said in its release that the trial paves the way for the creation of a two-way flowing, intelligent or ‘autonomous’ electrical system, which is the natural progression from today’s centralised, large-scale electricity networks in which energy only flows one way – outwards from the grid and central generators connected to it.
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/eu ... y-platform

European grid operators launch blockchain-based flexibility platform
A press release said that “batteries from millions of households will stabilise the electricity grid in the future,” with the Equigy platform using blockchain technology - which creates a secure, distributed and transparent ledger of all transactions - to allow the capabilities of even small household systems of a couple of kilowatts to be aggregated to deliver the services traditionally supplied by large-scale fossil fuel generation. TenneT has previously hosted a couple of related 'virtual power plant' (VPP) trial projects in Germany and the Netherlands with residential battery storage manufacturer sonnen, while Terna has already enabled distributed energy resources such as home batteries aggregated into VPPs to participate in some grid-balancing opportunities.

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/so ... n-flexibil
Blockchain technology and a digital trading platform is enabling sonnen’s latest virtual power plant (VPP) project in northeast Germany to store wind energy that would otherwise be curtailed and ‘lost’.
There's nothing magical about blockchain here. Two-way balancing is being done right now, everywhere with high rooftop solar penetration. And to the extent that blockchain can make two-way balancing easier or more efficient, that's great.

But I note that you ignored the concerns that I raised earlier. Here are the biggest threats to grid reliability in the US:

1) extreme weather is becoming more common, and extreme weather makes it harder for thermal plants (gas, coal, nuclear) to run. (It has an effect on renewables as well, but in both California in 2020 and in last month's Texas freeze-up, most of the generation we lost was thermal generation.)

2) to decarbonize the grid, we either need a lot more nuclear plants, which no one wants to build, or we need a lot more transmission lines, to get energy from places where the sun is shining and the wind is blowing to places where it's not, and a lot more utility-scale storage.

Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
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Re: NFT madness

Post by PeterC »

^ :good:

Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
Some countries are better set up in this regard than the US. Having a lot of hydro, for instance, giving another means of balancing the load profile, which the US doesn’t have the geography for. But this is really a question of planned investment as you say.
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tkp67
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Re: NFT madness

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Genjo Conan wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:59 pm No, let me be very clear. I help regulate the industry. I'm very aware of its foibles. That doesn't mean that blockchain is going to come disrupt the energy sector.
OK and this makes you an authority on public interest in NFT and blockchain interests in what manner?

You misread what I said. I never made specific predictions regarding what industries/sector blockchain will disrupt. That is because this is about NFT madness. Contextually I mentioned several factors influencing the tech and consumer sector push to establish blockchain and cryptocurrency adaptation. This isn't about you,vyour position with the energy sector or about the scope of disruption in your industry as you perceive it.

The tech industry's use of disruption to create new markets is purposefully meaningful here. The tenants of disruption are the very seeds driving blockchain technology from the cryptocurrency through blockchain innovation. The way you are framing disruption isn't accurate. E.G. Disrupting the energy industry doesn't necessarily mean pushing out existing infrastructure but rather monetizing through the integration of technology to existing infrastructure for a projected value add. It is a method of creating opportunity.

Perhaps it isn't your wheelhouse and the confidence inspired by your position isn't beneficial.
There's nothing magical about blockchain here. Two-way balancing is being done right now, everywhere with high rooftop solar penetration. And to the extent that blockchain can make two-way balancing easier or more efficient, that's great.

But I note that you ignored the concerns that I raised earlier. Here are the biggest threats to grid reliability in the US:

1) extreme weather is becoming more common, and extreme weather makes it harder for thermal plants (gas, coal, nuclear) to run. (It has an effect on renewables as well, but in both California in 2020 and in last month's Texas freeze-up, most of the generation we lost was thermal generation.)

2) to decarbonize the grid, we either need a lot more nuclear plants, which no one wants to build, or we need a lot more transmission lines, to get energy from places where the sun is shining and the wind is blowing to places where it's not, and a lot more utility-scale storage.

Grid reliability is an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem. Scaling up renewables makes grid balancing harder, and I suppose there could be a place for some sort of blockchain technology there. But first we have to scale up renewables. So when blockchain can weatherproof our generation assets, put in transmission lines, and build a lot of batteries, then I'll pay attention, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.
Great. Glad to see your position is so meaningful to you. However your position offers no insight on what drives drives blockchain development and adaptation in the world and is completely off topic.

Since my commentary has been topical in regards to the motivations that are pushing the rollout of blockchain technology across sectors your commentary is not only totally off topic but is meaningless. You don't even understand my perspective and are commenting based on faulty interpretation.

I get it though. A bunch of very conditioned minds with very sharp views on what blockchain and cyrpto mean to their industry who refuse to be shaken by hype which is driving consumer interest for NFT. I even understand the projection of frustration regarding issues that don't process well in such minds. This doesn't mean expressing it as such leads to a reasonable conclusion.

What is the opportunity cost of salaries being spent attempting to cajole others of a one's perspective? When I sat on a board of directors supporting high value businesses one of the exercises of executives was to know at all times their value and to determine how it was being used so it seems appropriate here.

:anjali:
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