Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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daverupa
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by daverupa »

Simon E. wrote:
bob wrote:
padma norbu wrote:The different paths of Buddhism do not agree on everything and accuse each other of "false views." Simply because the different groups eventually agreed on some core teachings that make them "Buddhist," does not mean the matter has been settled about what is definitively "buddhist" teaching.
“The ancient Suttas and the Vinaya are not entirely reliable texts, having passed through both oral and orthographic transmissions and suffering from faults of memory, embellishments, insertions, deletions and other edits along the way. Modern techniques of textual analysis are useful in sorting the authentic from the inauthentic but no particular passage can ever be proven to be original. In fact, the inconsistencies in the early scriptures are so great that by cherry picking relevant passages one could attribute almost any position to the Buddha one wants.”
~Bhikkhu Cintita Dinsmore
It's the lineage that makes the text live. Not vice versa. No lineage no authentic dharma..just tolle and adyashanti et al.
That quote is somewhat disingenuously truncated: Bhikkhu Cintita Dinsmore continues,
The fact is the adept reader of the early scriptures can with time repeatedly recognize an overriding consistency behind the passages. It is as if he is piecing together a jigsaw puzzle in which some pieces are missing and in which other pieces have been mixed in from other jigsaw puzzles, but at some point clearly recognizes, “Oh, I get it: This is the Golden Gate Bridge!”
Readers of the early texts will also notice a lack of 84k doors, of any kind, for what it's worth. Probably (no certitude, but strong likelihood is just fine) the historical Buddha didn't talk about it.

Tilmann Vetter's book is quite good.

:popcorn:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
muni
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by muni »

padma norbu wrote:
I can have a pleasant if uneventful conversation about Tolle with evangelical Christians and atheist non-religious types The original post of this thread was really just about sharing this particular video with Buddhist practitioners to see if they got anything out of it.
Of course. I mean as he is called spiritual teacher and not buddhist on the conference, no need to see a fraud.

Happy New year. :namaste:
*I do not teach separation.* sz.

Wisdom beings know that we are not separate. This is why they are able to grant blessings."
https://garchen.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... ditate.pdf
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

daverupa wrote:Readers of the early texts will also notice a lack of 84k doors, of any kind, for what it's worth. Probably (no certitude, but strong likelihood is just fine) the historical Buddha didn't talk about it.
Well, one thing we can definitely all agree on at this point, is that if the 84,000 doors really do refer to the Three Turnings of the Wheel and nothing else, then that definitely is a "representative teaching to the Buddha’s tolerance for other religions," just as David N. Snyder said, which was the original point Sherab Dorje has been trying to debate with me now since page 15.

Even though the various Buddhist schools see things differently and accuse each other of "false views," they agreed on some core teachings and regard each other as "Buddhists" and respect each others' traditions.
:anjali:

And, it probably does need repeating for a 4th or 5th time that the specific language Mr. Snyder used here does not imply that the 84,000 doors themselves teach religious tolerance for aDharmic religions, nor does this gata teach religious tolerance for aDharmic religions, which seems to be the general misunderstanding Sherab is having, even though I have pointed this out several times.

:namaste:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

Some of the other points I made were completely lost in the last 3 pages*, so I will repeat them as concisely as possible now in the form of a question:

If all beings have buddha-nature…
If buddha-nature is wisdom-emptiness fused with compassion…
If the universe really is held together by "compassion"…
If samsara is nirvana (from the absolute view)…
If everything is perfect...
If bodhisattvas manifest tirelessly for sentient beings' sake…
If samsara is always filling up and this caused Avalokitesvarah's head to explode…
If the Buddhas manifest pure Buddha-fields for those of right capacity…
If we are surrounded by countless invisible beings of different mindsets…
If our reality is an illusion created by our own misperception of the interdependent relationships of our minds…

…then aren't all teachings somehow beneficial, even if they are not Buddhadharma? Yes, the Buddha and others have advised not to waste our time in false views, but that does not mean everything which is not Buddhadharma is useless or that we can not learn from it. This, again, is a question, not an assertion.

It strikes me that if compassion really does hold the universe together and especially since we are in an age of a manifested Buddha and surrounded by Bodhisattvas who manifest tirelessly for our benefit, especially if we take into consideration the dakini principle, that we are probably surrounded by countless teachings of all types. You might say "84,000 of them." The correct views are often found right there in the same form and perceptions that manifest the wrong views. I think all relationships are symbolic and lead to greater understanding until at some point we recognize the "great symbol" of Mahamudra. Believing this does not take away from the uniqueness and preciousness of the Buddhadharma at all; it is not suggesting we don't still need the Buddhadharma.

*If you want to follow the train of thought where all these "if" statements come from, they stem from this post of mine from page 17:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p206775
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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reddust
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by reddust »

I remember reading somewhere Buddha said something like this, check out a teaching word for word with mine, if it does not match reject it. I'm in the middle of the weaver project and I'm not going to do a search because I'm afraid I lose myself for hours here (again) :thumbsup: . But I bet I remembering correctly. :namaste:
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

reddust wrote:I remember reading somewhere Buddha said something like this, check out a teaching word for word with mine, if it does not match reject it. I'm in the middle of the weaver project and I'm not going to do a search because I'm afraid I lose myself for hours here (again) :thumbsup: . But I bet I remembering correctly. :namaste:
Oh, for sure, I'm positive he said something like that. But, that is obviously in the context of his teachings to his students in whatever path that was (theravada/mahayana).

There are a great number of things out there which we all agree with should not be rejected, as per the example of the broad category of science, for instance.

I was actually getting toward something about the very fact of reality manifestation itself. Form and perception manifests both out of misperception and for our benefit, I think. That is what I was getting at with all the talk of things being perfect, manifesting for our benefit, the universe being held together by compassion, dakini principle, etc.

And learning from our mistakes, too, is part of the process of evolution, I think. Without these possibilities before us, how could we learn?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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reddust
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by reddust »

padma norbu wrote:
reddust wrote:I remember reading somewhere Buddha said something like this, check out a teaching word for word with mine, if it does not match reject it. I'm in the middle of the weaver project and I'm not going to do a search because I'm afraid I lose myself for hours here (again) :thumbsup: . But I bet I remembering correctly. :namaste:
Oh, for sure, I'm positive he said something like that. But, that is obviously in the context of his teachings to his students in whatever path that was (theravada/mahayana).

There are a great number of things out there which we all agree with should not be rejected, as per the example of the broad category of science, for example.

I was actually getting toward something about the very fact of reality manifestation itself. Form and perception manifests both out of misperception and for our benefit, I think. That is what I was getting at with all the talk of things being perfect, manifesting for our benefit, the universe being held together by compassion, dakini principle, etc.

And learning from our mistakes, too, is part of the process of evolution, I think. Without these possibilities before us, how could we learn?
I am so OCD! I have the quotes ...haha and I really want to post them because there is one that says something like "what ever is well said is said by Buddha". but you have to take that in context to Buddha talking to a deva. I love your threads, how we can explore and compare, argue and exchange information without fear, I really really like this kind of learning. :cheers: :hug:
Quote from Wildmind site:

“Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: ‘Certainly, this is not the Blessed One’s utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.’ In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it.”

Happy New Year Everyone :hi:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

Thanks, red. Interesting quote.

This line of thought really far and away from any sort of debate about whether or not Tolle is a fraud or whatever. I wouldn't reiterate it if I didn't just spend the last 3 pages debating a simple misunderstanding. It was just part of my overall thinking about the 84,000 doors and tangentially related to the topic at hand.

Happy New Years! I'm out!... :cheers:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Jesse »

Imo Buddhism isn't anything to be defended, it's just a tool. There's no reason to be so defensive over it, nor think it is superior to other religions. It is more effective at reliving suffering than many others, That's it, it's not the 'right' religion, or 'the correct' religion. At the end of the path even Buddhism is discarded, and that's preciously because it has no intrinsic value other than as a tool, once your finished with it, you discard it. Not to say it isn't useful before then.
If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by dude »

Gold is superior to silver.
Both have value but let's get real.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by DNS »

Since this discussion has also moved into tolerance to other religions, teachings . . .

One day the Buddha saw a young man worshiping the six directions, a common religious practice at that time. He asked Sigàla why he was doing this and the young man replied that his father, on his death bed, had made him promise to do it and thus continue a family tradition. Although the Buddha had little regard for such practices, he could see that Sigàla’s intentions were good, that he was worshiping the directions out of respect for his father and keeping the promise he had made to him. So rather than criticize or condemn the practice, he asked Sigàla to modify it slightly, to see the people he had relationships with – his parents, children, friends, employees, teachers etc, as equivalent to the directions and to worship them by treating them with kindness, respect and love (Digha Nikaya III. 181).

Upali lived during the time of Buddha and was the follower of another religion and went to the Buddha in order to argue with him and try to convert him. But after talking to the Buddha, he was so impressed that he decided to become a follower of the Buddha. But the Buddha said:

“Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself.

Now I am even more pleased and satisfied when the Buddha says to me: 'Make a proper investigation first.' For if members of another religion had secured me as a disciple they would have paraded a banner all around the town saying: 'Upali has joined our religion.' But the Buddha says to me: Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself”." (Majjhima Nikaya 2.379)
Beloved-of-the-Gods,
King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics
and the householders of all religions, and he honors them
with gifts and honors of various kinds.

But Beloved-of-the- Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much
as he values this — that there should be growth in the essentials
of all religions.

Growth in essentials can be done in different
ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that
is, not praising one’s own religion, or condemning the religion
of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism,
it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other
religions for this reason. By so doing, one’s own religion benefits,
and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one’s
own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his
own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others
with the thought “Let me glorify my own religion,” only harms
his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.

One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others.
Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should
be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.
Those who are content with their own religion should be told
this: Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts
and honors as much as he values that there should be growth in
the essentials of all religions. And to this end many are working
— Dhamma Mahamatras, Mahamatras in charge of the women’s
quarters, officers in charge of outlying areas, and other such
officers. And the fruit of this is that one’s own religion grows
and the Dhamma is illuminated also.
(King Ashoka Edict 12)
Here is a good essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html

Some highlights:
The first extreme is a retreat into fundamentalism, the adoption of an aggressive affirmation of one's own beliefs coupled with a proselytizing zeal toward those who still stand outside the chosen circle of one's co-religionists. While this response to the challenge of diversity has assumed alarming proportions in the folds of the great monotheistic religions, Christianity and Islam, it is not one toward which Buddhism has a ready affinity, for the ethical guidelines of the Dhamma naturally tend to foster an attitude of benign tolerance toward other religions and their followers. Though there is no guarantee against the rise of a militant fundamentalism from within Buddhism's own ranks, the Buddha's teachings can offer no sanctification, not even a remote one, for such a malignant development.
For Buddhists the more alluring alternative is the second extreme. This extreme, which purchases tolerance at the price of integrity, might be called the thesis of spiritual universalism: the view that all the great religions, at their core, espouse essentially the same truth, clothed merely in different modes of expression. Such a thesis could not, of course, be maintained in regard to the formal creeds of the major religions, which differ so widely that it would require a strenuous exercise in word-twisting to bring them into accord.
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Excellent posting, excellent article.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

:twothumbsup: :bow:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...the adoption of an aggressive affirmation of one's own beliefs coupled with a proselytizing zeal toward those who still stand outside the chosen circle of one's co-religionists. While this response to the challenge of diversity has assumed alarming proportions…..it is not one toward which Buddhism has a ready affinity, for the ethical guidelines of the Dhamma naturally tend to foster an attitude of benign tolerance toward other religions and their followers.
If I may I'd like to offer an alternative explanation.

Any religion invokes strong and compelling ideas and feelings. These feelings and beliefs want to find expression, to be consummated, to be lived experience, to become act-ual. With Dharma we are swamped with things to do in order to make it real for us, especially in the TB camp. The amount of all-out work involved is staggering. If one is really applying themselves they have no spare time or energy to try to lay trips on other people. It's the best they can do to help a newbie that wants the help.

But if someone is not given a means to make it real for them in that way, they still want to make it real, and that can then be done in the crudest way of enacting it in the world. Getting somebody else to buy into it is making it real in the world--or it seems to be in the eyes of someone that can't understand it is they that has to change. Finding 'evil' elsewhere and engaging in conflict defines the person as 'good'. That role then gives pleasure, and seemingly the ideas and beliefs have become lived experience.

I went to a monastery once, and my teacher asked me about it. I said, "Well, they don't talk about Dharma much". My teacher replied, "That's a good sign. That means they are actually doing it and don't need to talk about it."

Ending this post to go sit now. :-0
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by reddust »

smcj wrote:
I went to a monastery once, and my teacher asked me about it. I said, "Well, they don't talk about Dharma much". My teacher replied, "That's a good sign. That means they are actually doing it and don't need to talk about it."
:namaste:
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Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

I don't think that the dissonance that the thread has provoked Is to do with lack of respect for other religious views.
It is about distinguishing between dharma and dharma~lite.
If this is in doubt then someone should post a pro~Tolle thread on. Dharma wheel, also owned by Dr Snyder. 8-)
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

Jesse wrote:Imo Buddhism isn't anything to be defended, it's just a tool. There's no reason to be so defensive over it, nor think it is superior to other religions. It is more effective at reliving suffering than many others, That's it, it's not the 'right' religion, or 'the correct' religion. At the end of the path even Buddhism is discarded, and that's preciously because it has no intrinsic value other than as a tool, once your finished with it, you discard it. Not to say it isn't useful before then.
If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him
Groan...isn't it time to reflect on the use of Buddhist clichés ?
That one for example is counter~productive in a secular, nihilistic age when most will never meet the Buddha at all anywhere. We do not live in medieval Japan.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

smcj wrote:
...the adoption of an aggressive affirmation of one's own beliefs coupled with a proselytizing zeal toward those who still stand outside the chosen circle of one's co-religionists. While this response to the challenge of diversity has assumed alarming proportions…..it is not one toward which Buddhism has a ready affinity, for the ethical guidelines of the Dhamma naturally tend to foster an attitude of benign tolerance toward other religions and their followers.
If I may I'd like to offer an alternative explanation.

Any religion invokes strong and compelling ideas and feelings. These feelings and beliefs want to find expression, to be consummated, to be lived experience, to become act-ual. With Dharma we are swamped with things to do in order to make it real for us, especially in the TB camp. The amount of all-out work involved is staggering. If one is really applying themselves they have no spare time or energy to try to lay trips on other people. It's the best they can do to help a newbie that wants the help.

But if someone is not given a means to make it real for them in that way, they still want to make it real, and that can then be done in the crudest way of enacting it in the world. Getting somebody else to buy into it is making it real in the world--or it seems to be in the eyes of someone that can't understand it is they that has to change. Finding 'evil' elsewhere and engaging in conflict defines the person as 'good'. That role then gives pleasure, and seemingly the ideas and beliefs have become lived experience.

I went to a monastery once, and my teacher asked me about it. I said, "Well, they don't talk about Dharma much". My teacher replied, "That's a good sign. That means they are actually doing it and don't need to talk about it."

Ending this post to go sit now. :-0
I particularly love paragraph 2, but paragraph 3 sums it up nicely. Since I have been trying to actually incorporate the correct mindset into daily activities, I spend less time sitting and more time trying to interact with the world while being present and mindful, particularly while being in the midst of disagreement. I am slowly becoming ever more Spock-like in my old age, imo.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by muni »

Thanks for the words about tolerance.

I feel discussions like these are a help in warning us for extremism and there is no buddhism possible which is extremist. If we exclude others, there is the independent self.

There is not so much need to examine the talk in a way of being right or wrong, so I wrote he is called spiritual master and not buddhist. Regarding "our own disturbed mind which is the real danger" I meant own mind. I don’t say your or their or his or her mind. This as clarification for my earlier post. Sorry for messy-ness.

Then those who have understood the meaning of the buddha can see teaching in all without any thing which need to be classified or divided.

Peace.
*I do not teach separation.* sz.

Wisdom beings know that we are not separate. This is why they are able to grant blessings."
https://garchen.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... ditate.pdf
Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

muni wrote:Thanks for the words about tolerance.

I feel discussions like these are a help in warning us for extremism and there is no buddhism possible which is extremist. If we exclude others, there is the independent self.

There is not so much need to examine the talk in a way of being right or wrong, so I wrote he is called spiritual master and not buddhist. Regarding "our own disturbed mind which is the real danger" I meant own mind. I don’t say your or their or his or her mind. This as clarification for my earlier post. Sorry for messy-ness.

Then those who have understood the meaning of the buddha can see teaching in all without any thing which need to be divided.

Peace.
Which ids of course a triumphalist position which sees itself as superior, and sees the advocacy of plain buddhism as 'extreme '.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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