Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

padma norbu wrote:
Simon E. wrote:from the earliest days of dharma in the west all sorts of ways and means have led people to the gates of dharma. sooner or later however walking through those gates requires ' a turning about in the heart of consciousness '
This is a radical process usually requiring a teacher from a recognised Dharmic lineage. And a relinguishing of lesser means which do not lead to complete recognition of our primordial nature .
Yes, and it seems logical that those who are not interested to explore beyond Tolle are the same that would never stick to a Buddhist path. In that case, anything that creates some merit is better than nothing. The Buddha advised to keep paying alms and support to the Brahmins and monks of other traditions because it creates good merit. I also read something recently about how taking back offerings would cause huge demerit and was essentially taking back offerings from the worldly gods. It caused me to wonder if this wasn't partially at least why so many deities from other traditions were incorporated into Buddhism. It was a long time ago before we were around, so to us it might not seem so strange, but if today someone suddenly incorporated some deities into Buddhism without some old text to back it up, we would certainly look at them askance.
In my view the harm caused by syncretisism far outweighs any theoretical good. It delivers a weakened strain which then promotes resistance to the real thing.
After a while
one sees the same names cropping up on Buddhist websites all in agreement with each other, but never committed. And always the feeling that they have Never quite learned the song.
Last edited by Simon E. on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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padma norbu wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
padma norbu wrote:The Buddha advised to keep paying alms and support to the Brahmins and monks of other traditions because it creates good merit.
Source please. Giving motivated by generosity creates good merit, not the object of ones generosity. Though, of course the amount of merit would depend (also) upon the object of generosity, and the amount of generosity, and how one felt subsequently about the act.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhant ... igions.pdf
or
http://read.goodweb.cn/news/news_view.asp?newsid=58532
The first link talks about an edict issued by Asoka, the second does not quote the source for the statement.

Regardless the statement is reported as ending with:
The Buddha replied that there was no reason whatsoever for him to stop giving alms to any priests. The Buddha explained on many occasions that anyone could give alms to anybody in this world. Giving alms is a meritorious deed.
But I would like to see a scriptural source for the statement made by the Buddha.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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padma norbu wrote:Let me repeat: the language does not state that "this means religious tolerance," it says it "this is a representative teaching to the Buddha’s tolerance for other religions," which is different.
Six of one half a dozen of the other.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Berry
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Berry »

Jikan wrote:
bob wrote:
mutsuk wrote: Wrong views are to be avoided as the 3rd of the vows of the mind.
Every human view is wrong view, that's part of the surprise I mentioned previously.
I'd like to elaborate on this post in light of Berry's response to it. It seems to me that bob's position is a colloquial way to describe the basics of the two truths:

All conventional views are at best incomplete and provisional, which is to say that conventional views are fundamentally flawed if not entirely misleading, wrong, &c.

This is in contrast to the ultimate view, which can be debated endlessly and is (to my mind) not really something anyone can articulate verbally. Is the ultimate view even a view? I don't think so. But that doesn't mean awakening or liberation or realization (pick your noun for it) is not available. It means that the thicket of views is not the way to get there. Waking up is not about going to the bookstore and shopping for the correct view. One need not know all the views anyone has ever cooked up to recognize the trouble with all cooked-up views.

How does one practice in this way, on a day-to-day level? It's at this point in the conversation that, conventionally, one would be invited to ask one's teacher. Since you take the view that asking who your teacher may be is somehow an intrusive question, I'll simply leave it at that: Ask your teacher how one would practice it. This is the same as the question: How do I begin practice?

Where's the bullying in any of this, Berry? I ask because I take accusations of bullying very seriously, having been very badly bullied as a child. Bullying is not welcome at DharmaWheel.
Berry wrote:How do you think one actually does "absolute practice" on a relative daily level - and especially when posting on the internet to people with different levels of understanding ?

In general, Is it ok for someone to be a dominating bully if they think their own practice is "beyond right or wrong" ?

I already know what "The Two Truths" are, I simply found Bob's comments about all human views are wrong view quite obscure and therefore confusing.

http://www.bodhicitta.net/The%20Two%20Truths-1.htm

I didn't say anyone was bullying here at Dharma Wheel, it was a general comment. I've certainly noticed bullying going on in internet groups in the past,though, because sometimes people can get extremely condescending and rude when they think they have a little knowledge.

However, thanks for you concern Jikan, I appreciate it.
Last edited by Berry on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

Simon E. wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Simon E. wrote:from the earliest days of dharma in the west all sorts of ways and means have led people to the gates of dharma. sooner or later however walking through those gates requires ' a turning about in the heart of consciousness '
This is a radical process usually requiring a teacher from a recognised Dharmic lineage. And a relinguishing of lesser means which do not lead to complete recognition of our primordial nature .
Yes, and it seems logical that those who are not interested to explore beyond Tolle are the same that would never stick to a Buddhist path. In that case, anything that creates some merit is better than nothing. The Buddha advised to keep paying alms and support to the Brahmins and monks of other traditions because it creates good merit. I also read something recently about how taking back offerings would cause huge demerit and was essentially taking back offerings from the worldly gods. It caused me to wonder if this wasn't partially at least why so many deities from other traditions were incorporated into Buddhism. It was a long time ago before we were around, so to us it might not seem so strange, but if today someone suddenly incorporated some deities into Buddhism without some old text to back it up, we would certainly look at them askance.
In my view the harm caused by syncretism far outweighs any theoretical good. It delivers a weakened strain which then promotes resistance to the real thing.
After a while
one sees the same names cropping up on Buddhist websites all in agreement with each other, but never committed. And always the feeling that they have quite learned the song.
To my knowledge, from what I have witnessed, none of the well-regarded teachers make a public fuss. Dalai Lama says it best: it is good to note the similarities, but equally good to note the differences. Short of becoming a totalitarian dictatorship, there is nothing we can do to stop people from having ideas and sharing ideas and it seems the most respected faces of Buddhism have chosen not to rant and rave about Tolle, making themselves look fanatical and unappealing in the process.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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Sherab Dorje wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Let me repeat: the language does not state that "this means religious tolerance," it says it "this is a representative teaching to the Buddha’s tolerance for other religions," which is different.
Six of one half a dozen of the other.
No. A wrong interpretation would conclude "this is a teaching on religious tolerance", a correct interpretation would conclude "this is a representative teaching to..." is not saying "this is a teaching on religious tolerance."
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

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padma norbu wrote:Please tell me what was wrong with my personal opinion...
Quite simply: The gata does not need interpretation, it is clear as day.
...and stop trying to limit it to a piece of language you don't understand and misunderstood.
How could I not understand or misunderstand such a simple statement? You are the one hanging ribbons and bells off it trying to make it into something it is not. Ananda syas he received 82,000 teachings from the Buddha himself and 2,000 more from the Buddhas disciples. That gave Ananda 84,000 Dharma doors. Simple as sh*t really. No need for convoluted interpretations, mental gymnastics and logic stretching. Plain as the proboscis on this guys face:
oi big nose.jpg
oi big nose.jpg (6.91 KiB) Viewed 3072 times
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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daverupa
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by daverupa »

Sherab Dorje wrote:But I would like to see a scriptural source for the statement made by the Buddha.
The source being referred to in that second link is the Upali Sutta, I expect:
I, too, Venerable Sir, take refuge in the Buddha, the Doctrine, and the Order. May the Blessed One receive me a follower, as one who has taken refuge from this very day to life’s end.”

“Householder, make a thorough investigation! It is good for a distinguished man like you to (first) make a thorough investigation.”

“Venerable Sir, I am still more satisfied and delighted with the Blessed One because he cautions me thus: ’Householder, make a thorough investigation! It is well for a distinguished man like you to (first) make a thorough investigation.’ For, Venerable Sir, other religious bodies having acquired me as a disciple, would carry banners round the whole of Nālandā, saying, ’Upāli, the householder, has become a disciple of ours!’ The Blessed One, on the contrary, admonishes me to (first) make a thorough investigation. For the second time, Venerable Sir, I take refuge in the Buddha, the Doctrine, and the Order.”

“For a long time now, householder, your family has been like a fountain to the naked ascetics. Hence, you must bear in mind that alms should be given to those who come.”

“Such words, Venerable Sir, make me still more satisfied and delighted with the Blessed One.

I have heard, Venerable Sir, that the Samaṇa Gotama speaks thus: ’To me alone should alms be given, not to others; to my disciples alone should alms be given, not to the disciples of others. Alms given to me alone is productive of much fruit, not so the alms given to others; alms given to my disciples alone is productive of much fruit, not so the alms given to the disciples of others,’

But, on the contrary, the Blessed One advises me to bestow alms on the naked ascetics also! Well, Venerable Sir, we shall know when that is suitable.

For the third time, Venerable Sir, I take refuge in the Buddha, the Doctrine, and the Order.
... & though I don't see the specific claim in there about merit, giving is considered one of the three bases of meritorious action, and almsfood being given seems to support an idea that alms-giving is meritorious (though of course we'll want to make sure we don't think that generosity simply functions automatically as an efficacious ritual... ).
Last edited by daverupa on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

Berry wrote:I already know what "The Two Truths" are, I simply found Bob's comments about all human views are wrong view quite obscure and therefore confusing.
I was just reading multiple instances of this "all views are wrong" idea in Longchenpa's Kindly Bent To Ease Us (one of the 3 volumes) the other day. I just did a quick search to see if I could find anyone quoting it on DharmaWheel and found this thread; http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12684 ...which shows TNH has said "all views are wrong" at some point, at least. There is a lot about Longchenpa apparently in that thread, but I didnt' get the chance to read it. Off to do some work now...
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Please tell me what was wrong with my personal opinion...
Quite simply: The gata does not need interpretation, it is clear as day.
...and stop trying to limit it to a piece of language you don't understand and misunderstood.
How could I not understand or misunderstand such a simple statement? You are the one hanging ribbons and bells off it trying to make it into something it is not. Ananda syas he received 82,000 teachings from the Buddha himself and 2,000 more from the Buddhas disciples. That gave Ananda 84,000 Dharma doors. Simple as sh*t really. No need for convoluted interpretations, mental gymnastics and logic stretching. Plain as the proboscis on this guys face:
oi big nose.jpg
I don't know, but it seems that you have misunderstood it. "This is a representative teaching to..." does not mean the same thing as "this teaching states religious tolerance." It communicates that religious tolerance is a quality of the Buddha's teaching and that this teaching echoes that, ie "representative to."

Oh, and quite simply, I did not limit my comments regarding the 84,000 doors to the gata. So, then you are welcome to tell me what is wrong with my personal opinion in the several paragraphs you have ignored.
Last edited by padma norbu on Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by bob »

Berry wrote:
bob wrote: Every human view is wrong view
I am intrigued as well as puzzled....
To clarify:

Based on numerous testimonies of near death experiencers (those who were on the “other side” long enough to have been granted access to what we might call “Universal Knowledge”), all human views regarding the nature of existence — including our highest conceptions of liberation — are instantly recognized as merely primitive approximations at best, and actually quite naive in the larger scheme of things, as if a toddler were trying to describe celestial mechanics, for example.

In my own case, although I had studied spirituality for several decades, including seven years in a Catholic Seminary and three years in a Buddhist monastery, I was shown that none of my previous views really applied, and the distinct sense I had was that, on the contrary, all of them were based on false premises. It was unmistakably clear to me that the whole system and description of reality that we as humans buy into, based on our conditioning, is a somewhat humorous pretense (Divine Comedy). At best, it seems to be like a running software program within the confines of a holographic-type environment, one designed for immature beings who are just learning the rudiments of how to behave. This program includes all the religious and philosophical assertions which we as humans cling to and depend on to define our place in the universe.

To most of us, it comes as somewhat of a shock when we discover that there is no religion “beyond the veil”, nor any need for one. Religions are recognized to be purely human contrivances, and they invariably melt away when we separate from the human bio-vehicle, release our identification with its accompanying vexations, and resume our truer nature as immortal spiritual beings.

Nevertheless, although all human views are ultimately incomplete (physical matter is far too dense and rudimentary to hold anything but tiny fragments of true or Universal Knowledge), there is still the need for discernment in determining the more skillful views from the less than skillful, as we encounter the various tests presented to us in this earthly learning environment. In other words, some views will lead to more expansive and harmonious levels of awareness, and some to narrower, more contracted and conflicted levels of awareness. Based on our view of things, we can move up or down, freeing ourselves from afflictions or adding to our karmic load.

Moreover, non-identification with and non-dwelling on any views whatsoever, whether right or wrong, good or bad, pure or impure, positive or negative, etc., can reveal a spaciousness in which all opposites are recognized as void. Such practice is in fact a gateway to detachment and wisdom, and is recommended by the more advanced among us, the sages who have appeared to shine a light on the developmental process. A few levels further up in awareness, and even the greatly expanded views we attain in the afterlife will come to be regarded as lingering yet in the realm of children’s fantasies, and beyond that, no human imagination can begin to comprehend.

Essentially, views (positions) are produced by and in turn produce mental conditioning in this virtual reality scenario called human life. They are fabrications of consciousness, interpretations on perception, and due to the limitations of the human perceptive mechanism, are based on insufficient information to actually correspond to reality. In other words, all human views are symptoms of conditioning within a dream-like realm, and since consciousness itself is impermanent (comes and goes) then no view is anything but provisional.

The Buddha, according to the legend, having attained the state of unconditioned mind, is said to have “passed beyond the bondage, tie, greed, obsession, acceptance, attachment, and lust of view.” He furthermore states that he himself has no viewpoint. The so-called “Right View” as the first part of his Noble Eightfold Path leads ultimately not to the holding of correct views, but to a detached form of cognition, free from all mental positions.

“Does Master Gotama have any position at all?”

“A ‘position’ is something that a Tathagata (Awakened One) has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception . . . such are mental fabrications . . . such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.’ Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, and relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making and obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released.”

~ Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


To reiterate from a previous post, regardless of the views and dogmas we may have espoused, defended, and even evangelized in our human life, we will be made vividly aware that all that really matters is not our adherence to some human religion and its doctrinal views, or expertise in sutra and tantra, but the love that we shared (or didn’t) while alive.

If our religious/philosophical views served to help us in leading a life of integrity, gratitude, and compassion, eliminating greed, envy, and hatred whenever those tests presented themselves, then they could be considered expedient means, and we will likely move on to a more advanced curriculum. On the other hand, if our convictions led to divisiveness, arrogance, squabbling and bickering, and self-righteousness, then most likely we will find ourselves back for another round in kindergarten, still learning the basics of how to behave.
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padma norbu
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by padma norbu »

daverupa wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:But I would like to see a scriptural source for the statement made by the Buddha.
The source being referred to in that second link is the Upali Sutta, I expect:
Since he says that there are "many instances" of the Buddha teaching this, I would suspect there are indeed many instances in the Pali Canon based on who the teacher is. A quick googling showed some things from the Dhammapada.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
tatpurusa
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by tatpurusa »

When you are a Buddha you have basically two options.

1. Either you keep your realization to yourself
2. You share it with others. In this case they get mixed up and amalgamated with the views of your listeners. Either you tolerate it,
or you go back to option nr. 1.
3. At some point through the natural flow of amalgamation the teachings get so diluted, that not even you will be able to tell that it's coming from your original teaching. Time for the next Buddha to come. Your buddhahood might be too exhausted by then ...

4. For the dharma police: I am just joking .. :juggling:
Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

bob wrote:
Berry wrote:
bob wrote: Every human view is wrong view
I am intrigued as well as puzzled....
To clarify:

Based on numerous testimonies of near death experiencers (those who were on the “other side” long enough to have been granted access to what we might call “Universal Knowledge”), all human views regarding the nature of existence — including our highest conceptions of liberation — are instantly recognized as merely primitive approximations at best, and actually quite naive in the larger scheme of things, as if a toddler were trying to describe celestial mechanics, for example.

In my own case, although I had studied spirituality for several decades, including seven years in a Catholic Seminary and three years in a Buddhist monastery, I was shown that none of my previous views really applied, and the distinct sense I had was that, on the contrary, all of them were based on false premises. It was unmistakably clear to me that the whole system and description of reality that we as humans buy into, based on our conditioning, is a somewhat humorous pretense (Divine Comedy). At best, it seems to be like a running software program within the confines of a holographic-type environment, one designed for immature beings who are just learning the rudiments of how to behave. This program includes all the religious and philosophical assertions which we as humans cling to and depend on to define our place in the universe.

To most of us, it comes as somewhat of a shock when we discover that there is no religion “beyond the veil”, nor any need for one. Religions are recognized to be purely human contrivances, and they invariably melt away when we separate from the human bio-vehicle, release our identification with its accompanying vexations, and resume our truer nature as immortal spiritual beings.

Nevertheless, although all human views are ultimately incomplete (physical matter is far too dense and rudimentary to hold anything but tiny fragments of true or Universal Knowledge), there is still the need for discernment in determining the more skillful views from the less than skillful, as we encounter the various tests presented to us in this earthly learning environment. In other words, some views will lead to more expansive and harmonious levels of awareness, and some to narrower, more contracted and conflicted levels of awareness. Based on our view of things, we can move up or down, freeing ourselves from afflictions or adding to our karmic load.

Moreover, non-identification with and non-dwelling on any views whatsoever, whether right or wrong, good or bad, pure or impure, positive or negative, etc., can reveal a spaciousness in which all opposites are recognized as void. Such practice is in fact a gateway to detachment and wisdom, and is recommended by the more advanced among us, the sages who have appeared to shine a light on the developmental process. A few levels further up in awareness, and even the greatly expanded views we attain in the afterlife will come to be regarded as lingering yet in the realm of children’s fantasies, and beyond that, no human imagination can begin to comprehend.

Essentially, views (positions) are produced by and in turn produce mental conditioning in this virtual reality scenario called human life. They are fabrications of consciousness, interpretations on perception, and due to the limitations of the human perceptive mechanism, are based on insufficient information to actually correspond to reality. In other words, all human views are symptoms of conditioning within a dream-like realm, and since consciousness itself is impermanent (comes and goes) then no view is anything but provisional.

The Buddha, according to the legend, having attained the state of unconditioned mind, is said to have “passed beyond the bondage, tie, greed, obsession, acceptance, attachment, and lust of view.” He furthermore states that he himself has no viewpoint. The so-called “Right View” as the first part of his Noble Eightfold Path leads ultimately not to the holding of correct views, but to a detached form of cognition, free from all mental positions.

“Does Master Gotama have any position at all?”

“A ‘position’ is something that a Tathagata (Awakened One) has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception . . . such are mental fabrications . . . such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.’ Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, and relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making and obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released.”

~ Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


To reiterate from a previous post, regardless of the views and dogmas we may have espoused, defended, and even evangelized in our human life, we will be made vividly aware that all that really matters is not our adherence to some human religion and its doctrinal views, or expertise in sutra and tantra, but the love that we shared (or didn’t) while aliveLet's be quite clear here.

If our religious/philosophical views served to help us in leading a life of integrity, gratitude, and compassion, eliminating greed, envy, and hatred whenever those tests presented themselves, then they could be considered expedient means, and we will likely move on to a more advanced curriculum. On the other hand, if our convictions led to divisiveness, arrogance, squabbling and bickering, and self-righteousness, then most likely we will find ourselves back for another round in kindergarten, still learning the basics of how to behave.
Let's be quite clear here. You have chosen of your own free will to post on a clearly marked Buddhist forum in order to claim a superior view. You have a mission to preach to the benighted Buddhists and to put them right concerning the relative nature of the dharma, and your assumption is that they need your correction.
Now I have been informed that you have previous form in this regard. That you were a founder member of zen forum international but that your universalist views were not accepted there.....
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by bob »

Simon E. wrote: Let's be quite clear here. You have chosen of your own free will to post on a clearly marked Buddhist forum in order to claim a superior view. You have a mission to preach to the benighted Buddhists and to put them right concerning the relative nature of the dharma, and your assumption is that they need your correction.
Now I have been informed that you have previous form in this regard. That you were a founder member of zen forum international but that your universalist views were not accepted there.....

Hello Simon,

I commented in this thread on Tolle and so-called "tirthikas" in order to offer some alternative to what I perceived was a misguided doctrinal bias on the part of some members around the topic. Based on what I have observed on other threads, such as the currently popular discussion taking place around the science of Buddhism, for example, it seems that different opinions can be posted, even if they do not square with everybody's favorite conception.

I did indeed help to found ZFI, but left, not because my views were in question, but because I lost interest in internet dharma wrangling, and chose to pursue a more quiet path for a while.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by conebeckham »

padma norbu wrote: To my knowledge, from what I have witnessed, none of the well-regarded teachers make a public fuss. Dalai Lama says it best: it is good to note the similarities, but equally good to note the differences. Short of becoming a totalitarian dictatorship, there is nothing we can do to stop people from having ideas and sharing ideas and it seems the most respected faces of Buddhism have chosen not to rant and rave about Tolle, making themselves look fanatical and unappealing in the process.

According to Tibetan Pedagogy, at least in the Kagyu tradition, there are two "modes" of presenting teachings--the mode of pointing out similarities, to a general audience, and the mode of highlighting differences, for the committed and serious practitioner.

So, yes, they don't make a "public fuss." But you can be sure that, in small groups of actively practicing students, the "errors" or "wrong views" would be noted very clearly.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Every human view is wrong view.
Not quite. There are right views and wrong views, but even right views fall short of the ineffable Truth.

It's not that complicated.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Simon E.
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Simon E. »

of course alternative views can be expressed.
But let's be clear what they are an alternative to. They are an alternative to the view of Dharma found in all Buddhist traditions from Thervada to Dzogchen.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Grigoris
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Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by Grigoris »

padma norbu wrote:I don't know, but it seems that you have misunderstood it. "This is a representative teaching to..." does not mean the same thing as "this teaching states religious tolerance." It communicates that religious tolerance is a quality of the Buddha's teaching and that this teaching echoes that, ie "representative to."
Dude, you STILL have not understood the simple fact that the 84,000 quote is not even the words of the Buddha, but the words of Ananda.
As for my personal feelings on the 84,000 doors, my point was that you can not even list 1,000 of them (none of us can)
Of course we can, just that it would be incredibly tedious and boring. All you have to do is scour the Canon (both Shravakayana and Mahayana) for teachings given by the Buddha (and Sariputta and Mausgalyayana and Mahakassapa and...) to Ananda. Keep in mind that just because a teaching was not directed at Ananda personally does not mean he was not there to receive it too. You see, there is no need to make everything all mystical and magical, a little bit of dry logic goes a long way.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
bob
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Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: Eckart Tolle - master of the park bench

Post by bob »

Simon E. wrote:of course alternative views can be expressed.
But let's be clear what they are an alternative to. They are an alternative to the view of Dharma found in all Buddhist traditions from Thervada to Dzogchen.
I think Jikan got the gist of what I was pointing to, a page or two back, when he mentioned the two truths.

I would add that, for many, Dharma is a fixed proposition, a closed book. For others, Dharma evolves, as our understanding of things evolves.

In any case, I have said what I came here to share, and will leave it at that.

:namaste:
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