Vows 48 and 18 and Bodhisattva of Amitabha Buddha

[LastLegend]

A lot of fear associated with mixing practice to prevent Pure Land practitioners from being confused and stray off Pure Land path.

One can be a Bodhisattva of Amitabha Buddha while on earth, vows to take rebirth in Pure Land, makes profound vows (Bodhicitta), and strictly practice Pure Land, and have profound trust in vows 48 and 18 as having trust in Amitabha Buddha’s 48 vows and his ability to deliver. This way both vows are fulfilled. If one can trust vow 18, there is no reason to not trust vow 48. Profound trust is trust in the Amitabha Buddha’s ability.

[bowsamic]

What are you trying to say with this post? I don't understand the point it's trying to make. Is it simply a statement of your faith?

[LastLegend]

What are you trying to say with this post? I don't understand the point it's trying to make. Is it simply a statement of your faith?

The point is most Pure Land practitioners focus on 18th vow as soon as other vows are brought up they try to dismiss them immediately. It doesn’t have to be that way. They don’t like to mix practice from other traditions. My parents practice Pure Land path. I am familiar with their views which are similar to views of practitioners on this forum. In response, I don’t think everyone has to focus on vow 18. They can focus on vows 18 and 48. One can have Bodhisattva aspirations here and achieve non-regression state promised by vow 48th, and vow to take Rebirth in Pure Land as well which also fulfills vow 18th. The idea is taking rebirth in Pure Land even after achieving non-regression here will speed up their Buddhahood.

[Zhen Li]

The point is most Pure Land practitioners focus on 18th vow as soon as other vows are brought up they try to dismiss them immediately. It doesn’t have to be that way. They don’t like to mix practice from other traditions. My parents practice Pure Land path. I am familiar with their views which are similar to views of practitioners on this forum. In response, I don’t think everyone has to focus on vow 18. They can focus on vows 18 and 48. One can have Bodhisattva aspirations here and achieve non-regression state promised by vow 48th, and vow to take Rebirth in Pure Land as well which also fulfills vow 18th. The idea is taking rebirth in Pure Land even after achieving non-regression here will speed up their Buddhahood.

The "primal vow" (本願) encompasses all 48 vows. It actually is the nature of Dharma-body as suchness manifesting as compassionate means, so it is identical to Buddha-nature and thus is identical to bodhicitta (thus faith in the 18th vow encompasses the bodhicitta aspiration). So, it will take on different forms depending upon the needs of beings. In our world, it takes on the form of the 48 vows. In fact, all of the vows are important, even in Pure Land traditions. Non-retrogression is mentioned in the 11th and 47th vows. The 11th suggests that non-retrogression occurs after birth, but elsewhere it is made clear that it can be attained in life. The 47th vow suggests that it occurs after hearing the Name, which is understood as the same as the 18th vow and confirms that aspects of the 11th vow can occur in this life. The virtues of vow 48 (i.e. the attainment of the 3 insights) are traditionally held to be attained instantly upon birth since they require the mind of a bodhisattva on the 10 bhūmis to be understood. So, the 18th vow is most relevant to us because it tells us, limited beings, the essence of what is needed for birth, but it includes and implies all 48 like in an interconnected network—the 18th vow is like the centre of a spider's web.

As for various practices and understandings that one can attain in this life, this is an interesting matter. The section of the Tathāgataguhya I was reading just last night was mentioning how Vajrapāṇi could not understand or practice anything by his own power as a sentient being—it is only because the Wisdom of the Tathāgata is within his body, that he could understand any of the Dharma. It is only by virtue of the Tathāgata that we can do or understand any of the Dharma. Faith in the primal vow is the essence of getting in contact with and activating our connection to Buddha-nature in this life, and allows for immediate attainment of Nirvāṇa and Buddhahood upon death. That is why one who has the assurance of birth in this life is the equal of Maitreya Bodhisattva, thus I can state, due to my faith in Amitābha, that this is the last life for me, I have done what has to be done, and laid down my burden.

[LastLegend]

I don’t disagree much with what you said there though it’s unclear sometimes whether you are arguing or agreeing. But nothing major here at least you agree one can attain non-regression before they take rebirth in Pure Land. There is a Vietnamese monk well known in Vietnamese Pure Land community who has attained non-regression as evidenced by his crystallized bones after they cremated him. With regarding making profound vows, by the virtue of profound trust in Amitabha, they are already fulfilled. Given sincerity. There is nothing wrong with making profound vows now.

[Zhen Li]

I don’t disagree much with what you said there though it’s unclear sometimes whether you are arguing or agreeing. But nothing major here at least you agree one can attain non-regression before they take rebirth in Pure Land. There is a Vietnamese monk well known in Vietnamese Pure Land community who has attained non-regression as evidenced by his crystallized bones after they cremated him. With regarding making profound vows, by the virtue of profound trust in Amitabha, they are already fulfilled. Given sincerity. There is nothing wrong with making profound vows now.

Yes, I don't agree or disagree with what you said, since this is a matter of some nuance.

With regard to making profound vows, as you know, Dharmākara made his vows in the presence of Lokeśvararāja Buddha. Whether you do or do not in this life will not make a difference to the fact that after birth you will make profound vows and they will be fulfilled. The only vows of relevance that one can make that the 48 vows mention are vows to either have a shorter lifespan in the Pure Land (which only applies if one is not born in the "true land" but is rather born in the "fulfilled land") or to return to saṃsāra. So, I think, it is common that one might specifically make vows to save one's family members or appear in a certain location after being born in the Pure Land to help beings. I see no problem with that.

[LastLegend]

It’s matter of different aspirations. In your view, there are no aspirations needed and not much needed to except Faith, Vow to take Rebirth, and Practice recitation. Cool. For others they might appreciate non-regressive awakened state before they take rebirth in Pure Land. But by same virtue of no self power, what’s the harm in this? Like you said there isn’t much you need to do. On the same ground of thinking. You don’t need to do much.

[bowsamic]

What are you trying to say with this post? I don't understand the point it's trying to make. Is it simply a statement of your faith?

The point is most Pure Land practitioners focus on 18th vow as soon as other vows are brought up they try to dismiss them immediately. It doesn’t have to be that way. They don’t like to mix practice from other traditions. My parents practice Pure Land path. I am familiar with their views which are similar to views of practitioners on this forum. In response, I don’t think everyone has to focus on vow 18. They can focus on vows 18 and 48. One can have Bodhisattva aspirations here and achieve non-regression state promised by vow 48th, and vow to take Rebirth in Pure Land as well which also fulfills vow 18th. The idea is taking rebirth in Pure Land even after achieving non-regression here will speed up their Buddhahood.

I think it's a double edged sword frankly. Both ways demonstrate a lack of faith in Amitabha's vow. If you avoid other practises, then you think that for the vow to be fulfilled then it requires some single minded devotion to attain it, thus you think you need to do something special to be saved, thus you doubt the power of the vow. If you follow other practises, then you are admitting that the nembutsu isn't enough, which is obviously a demonstration that you don't have full faith in the vow.

There is, in my opinion, a middle way, which is the one that most people I've spoken to from mainland traditions follow. That is, relying purely on Amitabha's vow for liberation, but seeing the virtue in other practises from a non-soteriological point of view: obviously it's good to do practises to cultivate a compassionate mind, even if you don't think you need to do so to be liberated.

Of course you may just not even think faith is important, which is probably the ultimate point of view. If you have ultimate faith in the vow then you would realise that thinking you need faith is an expression of lack of faith, since why would such a vow be dependent upon faith? Perhaps a paradoxical point of view.

Also, I will add I'm very new to Pure Land, so everything I said above might just be a load of rubbish It's my understanding so far though

[LastLegend]

I’ve said many times: the quickest way towards Buddhahood is to go to a Pure Land. The Bodhisattva path is never a self power path. This is awakened to Mahayana faith. One can attain a emptiness samadhi beyond samsara (10th stage or whatever) doesn’t mean they have all the technology to liberate sentient beings. They don’t have all siddhis, holy powers, and all dharma knowledge because samsara worlds are a hindrance. While in Pure Land, they attain all of those quickly. It’s like us visiting the Alien world and learn their skills and technology quickly. We might think what we have achieved is great but they have surpassed us. Pure Land isn’t limited by space.

Your point above depends on who teaches Pure Land. Vietnamese Pure Land is more strictly, you would need tighten your precepts and practice single minded recitation. The common teaching amongst all Pure Land schools is profound trust without a slightest doubt.

[bowsamic]

The common teaching amongst all Pure Land schools is profound trust without a slightest doubt.

If you look for profound trust then you automatically must not have it, is the point. Our very searching defiles the vow.

Also I'm not really sure what the purpose of this post is. It looks like you're "preaching to the choir" so to speak. Is there any purpose other than the expression of your own faith?

[Matt J]

I wonder how much of that is found in Japanese as opposed to say, Chinese forms of Pureland. I don't see a strong aversion in Chinese sources about practicing multiple paths, often Pureland with Chan. Initial research suggests that the narrowing of practice and exclusivism seems to be more of a Japanese innovation.

The point is most Pure Land practitioners focus on 18th vow as soon as other vows are brought up they try to dismiss them immediately. It doesn’t have to be that way. They don’t like to mix practice from other traditions. My parents practice Pure Land path. I am familiar with their views which are similar to views of practitioners on this forum. In response, I don’t think everyone has to focus on vow 18. They can focus on vows 18 and 48. One can have Bodhisattva aspirations here and achieve non-regression state promised by vow 48th, and vow to take Rebirth in Pure Land as well which also fulfills vow 18th. The idea is taking rebirth in Pure Land even after achieving non-regression here will speed up their Buddhahood.

[LastLegend]

I wonder how much of that is found in Japanese as opposed to say, Chinese forms of Pureland. I don't see a strong aversion in Chinese sources about practicing multiple paths, often Pureland with Chan. Initial research suggests that the narrowing of practice and exclusivism seems to be more of a Japanese innovation.

The point is most Pure Land practitioners focus on 18th vow as soon as other vows are brought up they try to dismiss them immediately. It doesn’t have to be that way. They don’t like to mix practice from other traditions. My parents practice Pure Land path. I am familiar with their views which are similar to views of practitioners on this forum. In response, I don’t think everyone has to focus on vow 18. They can focus on vows 18 and 48. One can have Bodhisattva aspirations here and achieve non-regression state promised by vow 48th, and vow to take Rebirth in Pure Land as well which also fulfills vow 18th. The idea is taking rebirth in Pure Land even after achieving non-regression here will speed up their Buddhahood.

You are correct. It depends on the practitioners. The reason why there is aversion is because other practices might shaken their faith in Pure Land path. There was a Vietnamese monk (Thích Giác Khang passed away with crystallized bones) he who practiced meditation and recitation but followed Pure Land and he only encouraged recitation practice to a diverse group: women, men, the elderly, and young who attend his teaching.

In East Asian Buddhism, there is the teaching of reciprocity a very important teaching. This is relating to sincerity and profound trust with Amitabha Buddha. In order words, we can’t feel Amitabha Buddha if our mind is not in tune with his frequency. Reciprocity is a profound teaching.

[LastLegend]

It’s not how much one recites. It’s at what state of mind when mind recites. Very important here.

[Zhen Li]

It’s matter of different aspirations. In your view, there are no aspirations needed and not much needed to except Faith, Vow to take Rebirth, and Practice recitation. Cool. For others they might appreciate non-regressive awakened state before they take rebirth in Pure Land. But by same virtue of no self power, what’s the harm in this? Like you said there isn’t much you need to do. On the same ground of thinking. You don’t need to do much.

Bodhicitta aspiration is included within Shinjin (faith). If people are viewing the Pure Land as a heaven instead of a way to attain Buddhahood, their faith is not going to be settled in the right way. Moreover, with regard to non-retrogression, it is achieved immediately upon the realisation of Shinjin, in this very life.

I wonder how much of that is found in Japanese as opposed to say, Chinese forms of Pureland. I don't see a strong aversion in Chinese sources about practicing multiple paths, often Pureland with Chan. Initial research suggests that the narrowing of practice and exclusivism seems to be more of a Japanese innovation.

Most contemporary Chinese sects will agree with this, but there are some who recently are emphasising the teachings of Shandao that made such a big influence on Shinran and Honen. Shandao taught many things, including sundry practices, but the Japanese sects' interpretation is that the implication of Shandao's teachings is that one should only rely upon the Nembutsu.

[LastLegend]

It’s matter of different aspirations. In your view, there are no aspirations needed and not much needed to except Faith, Vow to take Rebirth, and Practice recitation. Cool. For others they might appreciate non-regressive awakened state before they take rebirth in Pure Land. But by same virtue of no self power, what’s the harm in this? Like you said there isn’t much you need to do. On the same ground of thinking. You don’t need to do much.

Bodhicitta aspiration is included within Shinjin (faith). If people are viewing the Pure Land as a heaven instead of a way to attain Buddhahood, their faith is not going to be settled in the right way. Moreover, with regard to non-retrogression, it is achieved immediately upon the realisation of Shinjin, in this very life.

I wonder how much of that is found in Japanese as opposed to say, Chinese forms of Pureland. I don't see a strong aversion in Chinese sources about practicing multiple paths, often Pureland with Chan. Initial research suggests that the narrowing of practice and exclusivism seems to be more of a Japanese innovation.

Most contemporary Chinese sects will agree with this, but there are some who recently are emphasising the teachings of Shandao that made such a big influence on Shinran and Honen. Shandao taught many things, including sundry practices, but the Japanese sects' interpretation is that the implication of Shandao's teachings is that one should only rely upon the Nembutsu.

Point one: keep in mind that Pure Land has human and sages. So it depends on the practitioners as well.

Point two: realization for me is strictly exiting samsara…either an Arahant or 10th.

[Zhen Li]

Point one: keep in mind that Pure Land has human and sages. So it depends on the practitioners as well.

The Pure Land does not have the six realms, all there have the same form and faculties:

... those beings will be born by transformation spontaneously, seated with legs crossed, in the seven-jewelled lotus-flowers, and instantly attain the same glorious forms, wisdom and virtue as those of other bodhisattvas there.

Of course, there are different grades of those born in the "embryonic states." They do not necessarily attain non-retrogression in this life, but will instantly upon birth there.

Point two: realization for me is strictly exiting samsara…either an Arahant or 10th.

If we are talking about realizing Shinjin, this is not really an either-or situation. Someone who realizes Shinjin attains non-retrogression but never needs to step foot on the four śrāvaka stages or ten bodhisattva bhūmis. They are no longer applicable or necessary. Moreover, that realisation is not self-attained, it is a gift granted by Amida. This is why the "reciprocity" you spoke of earlier, also being important in Jodo Shinshu, is thought of primarily as gratitude—we say the Nembutsu because we are rejoicing at being saved. For this reason, also, the Nembutsu is not uttered by us, but by Amida's power alone. The core of all this is an understanding and realisation of Buddha-nature.

[LastLegend]

Point one: keep in mind that Pure Land has human and sages. So it depends on the practitioners as well.

The Pure Land does not have the six realms, all there have the same form and faculties:

... those beings will be born by transformation spontaneously, seated with legs crossed, in the seven-jewelled lotus-flowers, and instantly attain the same glorious forms, wisdom and virtue as those of other bodhisattvas there.

Of course, there are different grades of those born in the "embryonic states." They do not necessarily attain non-retrogression in this life, but will instantly upon birth there.

Point two: realization for me is strictly exiting samsara…either an Arahant or 10th.

If we are talking about realizing Shinjin, this is not really an either-or situation. Someone who realizes Shinjin attains non-retrogression but never needs to step foot on the four śrāvaka stages or ten bodhisattva bhūmis. They are no longer applicable or necessary. Moreover, that realisation is not self-attained, it is a gift granted by Amida. This is why the "reciprocity" you spoke of earlier, also being important in Jodo Shinshu, is thought of primarily as gratitude—we say the Nembutsu because we are rejoicing at being saved. For this reason, also, the Nembutsu is not uttered by us, but by Amida's power alone. The core of all this is an understanding and realisation of Buddha-nature.

1) There are human and heavenly beings who possess virtues and wisdom of Bodhisattvas. The question then are they Bodhisattvas? If so, then why are they called human and heavenly beings. So do you agree that the grades depend on levels of recitation attainments: single minded concentration, higher, etc.

2) You can settle with Shinjin, call it a day, and take Rebirth. I am not. That’s not my aspirations. Because of reciprocity and sincerity on your part, you can have more aspirations.

[Zhen Li]

1) There are human and heavenly beings who possess virtues and wisdom of Bodhisattvas. The question then are they Bodhisattvas? If so, then why are they called human and heavenly beings. So do you agree that the grades depend on levels of recitation attainments: single minded concentration, higher, etc.

The answer is here:

The shravakas, bodhisattvas, heavenly beings and humans there have lofty and brilliant wisdom, and are masters of the supernatural powers. They are all of one form, without any differences, but are called 'heavenly beings' and 'humans' simply by analogy with the states of existence in other worlds. They are of noble and majestic countenance, unequaled in all the worlds, and their appearance is superb, unmatched by any being, heavenly or human. They are all endowed with bodies of Naturalness, Emptiness, and Infinity."

So, these terms are just an artistic flourish and analogy. In fact, they attain Buddhahood upon birth: Naturalness, Emptiness, and Infinity.

As for the grades, they are as described in the Longer Sutra and Contemplation Sutra. These apply when one is born without Shinjin.

2) You can settle with Shinjin, call it a day, and take Rebirth. I am not. That’s not my aspirations. Because of reciprocity and sincerity on your part, you can have more aspirations.

I am failing to see what kind of aspirations you are talking about and how they differ from the aspirations inherent in the aspiration to attain birth in the Pure Land that is Shinjin. Since birth itself implies infinite vows, lifespan, conduct, etc., what is there that it does not encompass? It is not as if Shinjin is some limited mind or just a little aspiration to go on a trip somewhere. It is the mind of the Buddha itself and endows one with all the practices and vows of Samantabhadra.

[LastLegend]

1) There are human and heavenly beings who possess virtues and wisdom of Bodhisattvas. The question then are they Bodhisattvas? If so, then why are they called human and heavenly beings. So do you agree that the grades depend on levels of recitation attainments: single minded concentration, higher, etc.

The answer is here:

The shravakas, bodhisattvas, heavenly beings and humans there have lofty and brilliant wisdom, and are masters of the supernatural powers. They are all of one form, without any differences, but are called 'heavenly beings' and 'humans' simply by analogy with the states of existence in other worlds. They are of noble and majestic countenance, unequaled in all the worlds, and their appearance is superb, unmatched by any being, heavenly or human. They are all endowed with bodies of Naturalness, Emptiness, and Infinity."

So, these terms are just an artistic flourish and analogy. In fact, they attain Buddhahood upon birth: Naturalness, Emptiness, and Infinity.

As for the grades, they are as described in the Longer Sutra and Contemplation Sutra. These apply when one is born without Shinjin.

2) You can settle with Shinjin, call it a day, and take Rebirth. I am not. That’s not my aspirations. Because of reciprocity and sincerity on your part, you can have more aspirations.

I am failing to see what kind of aspirations you are talking about and how they differ from the aspirations inherent in the aspiration to attain birth in the Pure Land that is Shinjin. Since birth itself implies infinite vows, lifespan, conduct, etc., what is there that it does not encompass? It is not as if Shinjin is some limited mind or just a little aspiration to go on a trip somewhere. It is the mind of the Buddha itself and endows one with all the practices and vows of Samantabhadra.

So Sravakas=Bodhisattvas=Heaven beings=Human beings=Exact Same Wisdom? No.Sir.

In Chan, it’s “breaking” free of consciousness to totally be free from samsara. The Shinjin you talk about is not free breaking from consciousness until taking rebirth in Pure Land and there are different grades of rebirth. Denoting there is distinction somewhere. You don’t call apple banana and say they are the same.

[Ayu]

Please, while discussing, mind the subforum.
It's "Pureland" here and doctrines from other traditions are not relevant here.