Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

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bcol01
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Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by bcol01 »

I'm curious about this, as this is what I have heard.
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Ayu
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by Ayu »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:07 am I'm curious about this, as this is what I have heard.
Where have have you heard about it?
In a short search I found this instead:
https://purelandba.wordpress.com/aboutus/
... While in our daily lives, we put to practice many of Buddha’s teachings, such as the Bodhisattva precepts, the Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Path. Which allow us to emphasize the interpretation and practice of the Dharma Scripture. ...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Everything is connected,
and all results spring from causes.
While, according to some Pure Land schools, the pursuit of virtuous actions of body, speech, and mind may, ultimately, be pointless “self-power” foolishness, and that all you need at the time of death is to picture Amitabha in your mind and recite his name, consider how your accumulation of actions over a lifetime will affect your ability to actually perform such a “simple” task at the moment of death.

Will you still believe, at that very moment, that simply chanting “Namo Amitabha” will save you? Maybe you will, and maybe you won’t. If all of a sudden, just before you die, someone tells you to simply trust Jesus, would you do that? Could you? Well, if you have ignored everything else up until that moment, is there really a difference?

But consider that keeping precepts now and cultivating virtuous activity now will provide the support that you will need then.

It’s like learning to dive off a diving board. If you never swim around in the pool first, and get used to that, simply showing up at the pool one day and jumping off the diving board will be a frightening if not impossible task.

So while technically, it can be said that from Buddha Amitabha’s perspective, you keeping the precepts or not doesn’t really have anything to do directly with taking rebirth in Sukhavati, from your or my perspective, it’s about knowing yourself and knowing what you really need to do so that your mind is at peace when the time comes, enough so that you can have confidence that reciting the name and seeing Amitabha Buddha in your mind is really enough.

There is also the very practical issue of not knowing when you will die. Since death can come suddenly and unexpectedly at any moment, you may not have the opportunity to call Amitabha at that moment. Even in your deathbed, you may be so zonked on pain killers that visualization and recitation is impossible.

The other aspect to consider is that keeping the precepts really has much to do with navigating this lifetime, and not creating negative causes that will result in negative results now. In that regard, keeping the precepts is an activity for this lifetime and that chanting ‘Namo Amitabha’ (in whatever form) is aimed at future rebirth…
… although since it can be said that we die and are reborn every moment, reciting the name as a constant practice will certainly produce positive effects in this life as well. In some sense, the Pure Land is right here now, all around us, if we learn how to see it. Keeping precepts and reciting the name are complimentary activities that many say will lead to such a present-day experience of realization.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Honen Shonin, Honen the Buddhist Saint p. 32 wrote:Let the Nembutsu of the Original Vow stand by itself and and receive help from no other quarter. By outside help I mean that of of one’s own wisdom, the observance of the commandments (sila), religious aspiration, deeds of charity, and the like. The good man, as he is, and the bad man too, as he is, each in his own natural condition, should seek help nowhere except in the Nembutsu. But he is in harmony with the mind of the Buddha who practices it by giving up his wickedness and becoming good. A man who cannot make up his mind, but is always thinking himself unfit in this way or that, will not be sure of attaining birth into the Pure Land.
Honen Shonin, Promise of Amida Buddha, Dialogue on Twelve Issues, p. 271-2 wrote: Q. (10): How can I understand the idea that virtuous deeds other than nembutsu are not the practices for birth in the Pure Land and should therefore not be pursued?

Answer (Honen): This idea can be linked to the many attendants of a master walking with him along the road. Among the practices for birth in the Pure Land, nembutsu is the master while other deeds are the attendants. However, it is not necessary to belittle the retinue of virtuous deeds.

Q. (11): Some will choose to amass immoral deeds, knowing that the essential vow does not discriminate against a depraved person. How do you explain this?

A: Amida Buddha will not abandon an errant mortal. However, one who chooses unwholesome deeds does not qualify to become a disciple of Buddha Sakyamuni. Among all the teachings of Buddha Sakyamuni, there are none that do not discourage wrongful deeds. Buddha Sakyamuni encourages those who find it impossible to refrain from undesirable deeds to expiate their wrongs through the recitation of nembutsu.

To blame one’s crimes and errors on Amida Buddha because one finds the burden unbearable is terribly wrong. If one finds it impossible to refrain from unwholesome deeds, one should implore, “Please, Amida Buddha, with your compassion, dissipate my failings and receive me into the Pure Land.” No school of Buddhism teaches the commitment of wrongful acts.

To illustrate, though parents love all their children, some children may be good and some may be delinquent. Although the parents love them all equally, they scold with glaring eyes and discipline the unruly one with a cane.

If one hears that because the compassion of Amida Buddha is infinite, wicked deeds are acceptable, this may lead one to fall out of Amida Buddha’s grace. Upon learning that the essential vow promises to save even the depraved, a wrongdoer should be evermore awed by his brilliance and insight, and thus reflect upon and have remorse for his conduct. Just because parents love their children, will they be joyous if one child commits unvirtuous deeds? The parents will grieve, but not abandon; they will feel pity, yet abhor the child's action. Amida Buddha feels the same way.
Namu Amida Butsu
bcol01
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by bcol01 »

Ty I appreciate that
Ayu wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:24 am
bcol01 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:07 am I'm curious about this, as this is what I have heard.
Where have have you heard about it?
In a short search I found this instead:
https://purelandba.wordpress.com/aboutus/
... While in our daily lives, we put to practice many of Buddha’s teachings, such as the Bodhisattva precepts, the Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Path. Which allow us to emphasize the interpretation and practice of the Dharma Scripture. ...
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by Zhen Li »

I would like to thank Myoan for his quotes by Master Hōnen. This is precisely the Jōdo Shinshū understanding as well.

In short, we should not take a liking to poison just because there is an antidote. Right is still right, and wrong is still wrong.

I see the precepts (from the five precepts to the pratimokṣa and the bodhisattva precepts) as the indication of wholesome and unwholesome behaviour. It allows me to reflect upon my shortcomings. But as a path to Buddhahood, they are not essential. The entire reason why Hōnen and Shinran did not ask students to undertake precepts is because their whole teaching was abandoning the provisional and taking up what is essential. This, too, was the teaching of Shandao. The provisional includes all meditative and non-meditative good acts, including precepts and Pure Land visualisation practices. The essential is the Nembutsu of the 18th vow.

Shinran has an implicit teaching called Sangan Tennyu, which means turning through the three vows. He and many people go through this transformation process, which leads them to the 18th vow. It is as follows:

Firstly, someone determines that the best way to assure Buddhahood is birth in the Pure Land of Amida. So, they begin to orient their practice towards that end.

1. They meditative and non-meditative good acts and dedicate them to birth in the Pure Land. At the moment of death, they see the Buddha and Bodhisattvas. This is birth in accord with the 19th vow. It permits elements of doubt and thus results in birth in the borderland. Any practice that prioritises or holds as necessary the moment of death reveals this element of doubt.

2. They realise that the Nembutsu is the essential practice for birth. They, therefore, recite diligently with all their effort and dedicate the merit to birth. This is a kind of self-power Nembutsu, and thus reveals an element of doubt, but it leads to reliance upon the Nembutsu, and therefore is called by Shinran the "True Gate."

3. One realises that one is saved just as one is. After listening deeply to the Dharma of Amida and being open to receiving it, one receives the mind of faith (Shinjin). After that, the Nembutsu is said in gratitude. This results in birth in the rank of non-retrogression and attainment of Buddhahood upon death. This is birth by the eighteenth vow.

So, reliance upon precepts, visualisation, and self-power Nembutsu, in some people, can serve as important stepping stones to faith. However, it is also worth bearing in mind that Shinran went through that process so we did not have to. We can simply see that we should rely solely on the 18th vow.

All this said, none of the Dharma is negated, including morality. In fact, many precepts that some Buddhists reject as undesirable to uphold or believe in, can easily be accepted by Pure Land Buddhists, who spend a lot more time reflecting on the immense difficulty that is entailed in upholding them.

But after receiving faith, you will also find that since your mind is oriented towards the Buddha, your behaviour may naturally orient itself towards the Dharma. This happens entirely naturally, not by one's own power. If you truly believe (as one with Shinjin does), the truth of the Dharma, you may come to find that you cannot but help act as though it is all true.
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by bowsamic »

Pure Land and antinomianism has a complicated history. You will find many different opinions regarding this, and some even claimed that Hōnen's ideas on it changed throughout his life depending on the political climate at the time, since there supposedly were practitioners under his teaching which did end up using nembutsu as an excuse to not follow the precepts, and anti-Pure Land people at that time used this as a way to decry Hōnen to the point where the practise of "exclusive nembutsu" became illegal. I found this blog post about it very interesting (although I'm not sure of its accuracy) https://theclassicjournal.uga.edu/index ... -buddhism/

I don't think it has a straightforward answer, and of course depends on your definition of "need".
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Respectfully, there are indeed inaccuracies in the article shared above, at least according to my understanding of Honen.

Here are two:
For example, Honen held the central belief that chanting the nembutsu removes the effect of sin but also expressed in other instances that, if one chants the nembutsu with a “wrong spirit” at death, it will do nothing to get one into the Pure Land.
The Contemplation Sutra teaches that reciting "Namo Amitabha Buddha" removes kalpas of negative karma, which is not an uncommon effect of applying Mahayana practices.
However, it does not "remove the effect of sin". As in Pure Land Buddhism generally, one takes one's negative karma along to the Pure Land; and it is possible not to be born in the Pure Land. You can read about once-calling versus many-calling to explore the matter.

"Wrong spirit" is not a term used by Honen, so the quotation marks are odd.
For Honen and Shantao, birth in the Pure Land, at the base, requires the Three Hearts mentioned in Amida Buddha's 18th Vow in the Larger Sutra: a sincere heart, a genuine heart, and a heart that dedicates all of one's merit towards birth in the Pure Land (i.e. aspires to be born there).

Honen taught that such a Threefold Heart arises naturally from sincere nembutsu, either once at the moment of death, or over time one's whole life through.
It is not the case that confusion or suffering at death means one cannot be born in the Pure Land; nearly everyone suffers and is confused at death, and nembutsu practice can be performed by ordinary people. But we should keep our last moment in mind, since it can happen anywhere, anytime.

Honen's writings are available online in English, and in several books. I'm happy to share recommendations.
Just as with Shinran, it helped me more to read his works directly rather than essays or books about him.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by LastLegend »

One should not doubt the power of Amitabha and 48 vows.

There are different levels of recitation:
1) Recitation out loud
2) Recitation by inside mind
3) Recitation remembering Amitabha:
A) gently arise a thought of the Buddha
B) gently behold the thought of the Buddha ( in sitting position as a meditative practice)

Amongst Chan practitioners, a combination of Recitation and Meditation is the practice. They say like a tiger with wings. Also, self-power isn’t enough there is a need to call forth the other Other Power to help enter Samadhi of Great Dharmakaya. It might not be common known amongst other Chan or Zen practitioners. But it’s in line with Mahayana ideal. This perfectly makes sense given Amitabha’s vows to deliver all Bodhisattvas as well.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

There are no precepts in Jodo Shinshu
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Re: Does being a Pureland Buddhist mean that one doesn't have to follow the precepts?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

A small addendum to my previous post: the Three Hearts are the sincere heart (also called the genuine heart), the profound heart, and the heart that dedicates one's merit towards birth.
These Three Minds have a chapter in the Senchakushu for those desiring further information.
Namu Amida Butsu
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