bowsamic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:36 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:18 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:08 pm
Unless I'm badly mistaken, the traditional presentation of karma says that the material conditions into which one is born, or lives, is a direct manifestation of karma. You may want to make the point that objective circumstances are not determinative of the status of our subjective awareness, but they are hugely influential. If you object to this idea please try holding your breath for 10 minutes. If you must concede that taking another breath is compulsory then that is enough to establish that, until liberation from "self", objective situations can be compulsory.
They are, as you say, a direct result of karma. But beyond that they don’t hold any value. Being born rich, or as a male for that matter, isn’t intrinsically any better than being born poor or as a female (there are those who think that being born female is the unfortunate result of having performed negative actions in a past life).
Assigning value to material conditions as being the result of karma is making the mistake of seeing karma as a system of rewards and punishments, which it is not.
Being born into a rich family may be the result of karma, but if one is also mentally a hungry ghost, and they never feel they have enough, this is also karma.
I think the material conditions are very relevant to both our practise and our suffering. That's why the Buddha spoke about karma causing material conditions so extensively. He said that being poor, being ugly, being blind etc are all results of the previous actions. Why do you feel justified telling us that is not relevant if the Buddha taught us it? Do you know something he didn't?
Material conditions are relevant, but they themselves aren’t what matters. It’s how we relate to and respond to those conditions, and that’s where karma comes into it. If you’ve practiced greed and clinging previously, then regardless of whether you are rich or poor in this life, you will have a tendency to continue the behavior you’ve practiced.
Ugly and poor are subjective concepts. If The buddha thinks you are ugly, then are you? If I think you are good-looking, is that the result of your karma or mine? You have whatever face you have. Whether it’s a pretty face or an ugly face is in the mind of whoever is looking at it. If anything, it is my karma, not yours, which influences how I perceive it, which determines if you are beautiful or ugly.
Are wandering Buddhist monks who own only a bowl, a robe, and a razor rich or poor? I lived for years below the official poverty level but never felt poor. Material objects come and go. But at the time of death, wealth won’t help a rich person. The Buddha pointed this out too. If a materially poor person has cultivated a peaceful mind, then who is actually richer, that person, or the bloated millionaire who grasps endlessly for more wealth, political power, and popularity?
Therefore, such concepts can really only refer to states of mind. Since karma is a product of mind, then doesn’t this make sense? I’m not disputing what the Buddha taught. I’m saying that regarding superficial and subjective appearances as the karmic result is a common misinterpretation. In fact, such an interpretation directly contradicts the principle of emptiness (suñata) that phenomena possess no inherent reality.
Blindness is a physical handicap. So was being a female, in Buddha’s day. So, if being born blind is the result of some negative action in the past, then the same would have to be said for being female, or for that matter, dark skinned, if you consider that the indian caste system is heavily biased by skin color, with dark skinned Dalits being relegated to the status of “untouchables”.
I’m not disputing that whatever conditions one has arrived at in this life are related to karma. All I’m saying is that you can’t impute value judgements in any meaningful way. You can’t say someone was born with a disability, or with an atypical physical appearance, or as a black female because they did terrible things in a past life. To do such is to assert that those traits are objectively, and intrinsically negative traits to have in this life.
So, yes, you can say that whatever your condition results from karma. But it’s a meaninglessness statement. Karma is an unimaginably complex process of infinite conditions, The Buddha even said that one would lose their mind trying to unravel what karma brought what phenomena to its current state of being.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.