Excuse the Questions of a Pure Land Newb...

[greenobeeno]

Hello all and Namo Amida Butsu,

I probably didn't even spell that correctly. Anyway, I've been a Buddhist for 5 years now and recently started practicing more Mahayana. My interest has gone a little all over the place but as a busy husband who keeps the five precepts and not much else practice wise besides read Sutras at work, the writings of Honen Shonin stood out to me. I thought, "Wait a minute, I can do THIS stuff". So, my post is asking the Pure Land community, how should I pursue this path based on Honen Shonin's teachings?

For context, I am aware of his basic works and am reading the Senchaku and looking for Honen's letters in English and Biography by disciples, though I understand not much is translated sadly. Fwiw, I did look into Shinran Shonin and enjoyed some of Rennyo Shonin's letters specifically but I like the more structured nembutsu chanting and visualization emphasized by Honen, though all respect to Jodo-shinshu

Thanks for any help, Gassho and all the rest,

James

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Senchaku is a good way to go

[User 3495]

The book "The Promise of Amida Buddha" is a translation of many of Honen's letters. In my opinion it is even more suited for beginners on the path than the Senchakushu.

[明安 Myoan]

I second that recommendation.

You can also learn some on the website of Rinkaian Jodo Shu Temple:https://www.rinkaian.jp/e/

The webmaster often answers questions too.

Koloa Jodo Shu Mission has a section of teachings as well: https://www.koloajodo.com/

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

"Wait a minute, I can do THIS stuff".

You definitely can

[greenobeeno]

Thank you all for such a warm reception here! Lots of awesome resources. Two follow up questions:

1. Does Jodo-shu emphasize or encourage keeping the five precepts? Coming from Theravada they were second-nature to me so is any encouragement given to keep them?

2. Regarding the five grave sins (matricide etc.) I have thankfully never done them, whew. However, I read in Amida's 18th vow that people who do them are excused from that vow. It seems in some places Honen Shonin suggests even those people who commit them may be saved by Amida, is this true? And if its true, how based on Sutras?

Thanks for being so groovy and helpful!

[FiveSkandhas]

2. Regarding the five grave sins (matricide etc.) I have thankfully never done them, whew. However, I read in Amida's 18th vow that people who do them are excused from that vow. It seems in some places Honen Shonin suggests even those people who commit them may be saved by Amida, is this true? And if its true, how based on Sutras?

This is known as the problem of the "exclusion clause." It is generally read such that those who are excluded are not excluded permanently, bur rather temporarily. The exclusion clause is written in the 18th vow as a kind of upaya to underscore the the seriousness of the five grave sins; i e., that we shouldn't take the Nenbutsu as a "get out of jail free card" that allows us to sin at will. (A heterodox attitude known as "licensed evil.") Even though the Nembutsu allows for the salvation of those who have committed the Grave Sins, one should avoid committing them; to paraphrase Shinran Shonin, just because one has an antidote doesn't mean one should go about guzzling poison.

Master Shan Tao wrote about this point in some detail but the Sutra that provides the proof is the Contemplation Sutra.

Finally, there are the beings who will be born in the lowest form of the lowest grade.
If there is any one who commits evil deeds, and even completes the ten wicked actions, the five deadly sins and the like; that man, being himself stupid and guilty of many crimes, deserves to fall into a miserable path of existence and suffer endless pains during many kalpas.

On the eve of death he will meet a good and learned teacher who will, soothing and encouraging him in various ways, preach to him the excellent Dharma and teach him the remembrance of Buddha, but, being harassed by pains, he will have no time to think of Buddha. Some good friend will then say to him: "Even if you cannot exercise the remembrance of Buddha, you may, at least, utter the name, "Buddha Amitayus."
Let him do so serenely with his voice uninterrupted; let him be (continually) thinking of Buddha until he has completed ten times the thought, repeating the formula, "Adoration to Buddha Amitayus" (Namah Amitabha Buddhayah, Namu Amida Butsu).

On the strength of his merit of uttering that Buddha's name he will, during every repetition, expiate the sins which involved him in births and deaths during eighty million kalpas. He will, while dying, see a golden lotus-flower like the disk of the sun appearing before his eyes; in a moment he will be born in the World of Highest Happiness.

After twelve greater kalpas the lotus-flower will unfold; thereupon the Bodhisattvas Avalokitesvara and Mahasthamaprapta, raising their voices in great compassion, will preach to him in detail the real state of all the elements of nature and the law of the expiation of sins. On hearing them he will rejoice and will immediately direct his thought toward the attainment of the Bodhi -- such are the beings who are to be born in the lowest form of the lowest grade to Buddhahood. The perception of the above three is called the meditation of the inferior class of beings, and is the Sixteenth Meditation.

From a good essay on the topic by Paul Roberts:

So...how are we to understand how the Exclusion Clause does exclude anyone at all?

Once again, it's very simple.

As long as someone is in the grip of such deep darkness that he (or she) would commit one of the Five Great Offenses, he is plunging himself into terrible darkness. He is turning his back on the light, and putting himself into hell. At that particular moment in his long journey of many lives, the Primal Vow can do him no good. He is excluded from it - because he is excluding himself.

But if - at some point - even at the point of his death - he has a sincere change of heart, and turns towards the Light, he is excluded no more...just as Shakyamuni teaches right here.

And if he should die in his darkness, and have to endure some life or lives in some hell realm before finally expiating his evil karma, then when that expiation is done, he will once again be given the opportunity to experience the life and light of Amida Buddha - and respond to it once again.

Again, this call and response may happen over the course of many lifetimes...but ultimately, the outcome is certain: Each and every being WILL - sooner or later - receive Amida's grace as it truly is, and thereby finally come to the end of their long journey in samsaric darkness.

Source of the above:

http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/exclusion.html

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Thank you all for such a warm reception here! Lots of awesome resources. Two follow up questions:

1. Does Jodo-shu emphasize or encourage keeping the five precepts? Coming from Theravada they were second-nature to me so is any encouragement given to keep them?

2. Regarding the five grave sins (matricide etc.) I have thankfully never done them, whew. However, I read in Amida's 18th vow that people who do them are excused from that vow. It seems in some places Honen Shonin suggests even those people who commit them may be saved by Amida, is this true? And if its true, how based on Sutras?

Thanks for being so groovy and helpful!

The point of the 18th Vow as there is nothing on the practitioners side that’s why it’s so hard to attain faith

[greenobeeno]

Thank you Five Skandha for the excellent response to the second question!

The reason I asked is I wanted to make sure that the Pure Land path was open to all living beings

I've read Honen Shonin encouraging the precepts before (One of the letters I think but if anyone recalls the source that's great) and saw them in the seven article pledge as well. So, I am just making sure that the five precepts are encouraged to those able to undertake them. I do fully understand that one who doesn't keep the five precepts will still be brought to the Pure Land by Amida Buddha regardless.

Thanks for being patient with me and these questions

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Thank you Five Skandha for the excellent response to the second question!

The reason I asked is I wanted to make sure that the Pure Land path was open to all living beings

I've read Honen Shonin encouraging the precepts before (One of the letters I think but if anyone recalls the source that's great) and saw them in the seven article pledge as well. So, I am just making sure that the five precepts are encouraged to those able to undertake them. I do fully understand that one who doesn't keep the five precepts will still be brought to the Pure Land by Amida Buddha regardless.

Thanks for being patient with me and these questions

If you’re practicing self power then 5 precepts but that’s me recalling when I practiced following Patriarch Yin Kuang which is Chinese Pure Land. In Jodo Shinshu ultimately there are no precepts but they are optional so long as you have the correct understanding.

Don’t know Honen that well because I followed Shinran but according to somebody at the centre where I trained they are the same but the emphasis is different

[FiveSkandhas]

From the official Jodo-Shu website:

Taking the Precepts (jukai-e)
This is the ceremony of taking of the five basic Buddhist precepts (kairitsu) [no killing, lying, inappropriate sexual conduct, stealing, or intoxication]. In Jodo Shu, these precepts are seen as Miscellaneous Practices (zogyo) in support of the Rightly Established Practice (shojo no go), the chanting of the nembutsu.

Source:
http://www.jodo.org/about_js/ordination_ceremo.html

[greenobeeno]

Thanks again for the responses. It's a ceremony right on the Jodo-shu website, great! And I know the 5 precepts are an auxiliary practice thanks to the other materials offered in this thread so far.

Alright everyone thanks again for the speedy responses, if anything else pops up I'll be sure to ask. I established a daily recitation practice for nembutsu already and will continue keeping the five precepts like I usually do. The visualizations of the Pure Land have been an incredible experience so far so any tapes or recording of visualization meditations regarding Pure Land would be groovy and appreciated. And Sutra listening and reading I love too.

Also, the community I wanna highlight here has been awesome

[FiveSkandhas]

You might enjoy this...

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Thanks again for the responses. It's a ceremony right on the Jodo-shu website, great! And I know the 5 precepts are an auxiliary practice thanks to the other materials offered in this thread so far.

Alright everyone thanks again for the speedy responses, if anything else pops up I'll be sure to ask. I established a daily recitation practice for nembutsu already and will continue keeping the five precepts like I usually do. The visualizations of the Pure Land have been an incredible experience so far so any tapes or recording of visualization meditations regarding Pure Land would be groovy and appreciated. And Sutra listening and reading I love too.

Also, the community I wanna highlight here has been awesome

When I was at the Shin centre Amida was considered greatly compassionate known as the Great Compassion there.

Enjoy your practice

[明安 Myoan]

Yes, Honen Shonin encouraged people to uphold the Five and Ten Mahayana Precepts.
He compared Amida Buddha to a parent who rejoices over their children who do good and feels sympathy for their children who do harm, loving them both.
He wrote that there are many who do not or cannot uphold the precepts, so the precepts must not be a precondition for receiving the benefits of Amida Buddha's universal vows.

He and Master Shantao also wrote that, as part of the Three Minds which develop naturally out of nembutsu, there is a growing sincerity in the heart, which attempts to perform virtue and cast out harms. The Sincere Heart teaching develops this further (in the Senchakushu). These Minds or Hearts are both a fruit of nembutsu and a support for it.

Honen wrote several times about the precepts in Promise of Amida Buddha, often encouraging them while also saying not to dwell on one's own virtue or vice as some impediment to pursuing practice, worrying whether one is pure enough.

Precepts definitely appear to fall under his broad recommendation to do what supports one's practice and peaceful life, and to set aside things that hinder them.

Happy to have you join us here!

[greenobeeno]

Yes, Honen Shonin encouraged people to uphold the Five and Ten Mahayana Precepts.
He compared Amida Buddha to a parent who rejoices over their children who do good and feels sympathy for their children who do harm, loving them both.
He wrote that there are many who do not or cannot uphold the precepts, so the precepts must not be a precondition for receiving the benefits of Amida Buddha's universal vows.

He and Master Shantao also wrote that, as part of the Three Minds which develop naturally out of nembutsu, there is a growing sincerity in the heart, which attempts to perform virtue and cast out harms. The Sincere Heart teaching develops this further (in the Senchakushu). These Minds or Hearts are both a fruit of nembutsu and a support for it.

Honen wrote several times about the precepts in Promise of Amida Buddha, often encouraging them while also saying not to dwell on one's own virtue or vice as some impediment to pursuing practice, worrying whether one is pure enough.

Precepts definitely appear to fall under his broad recommendation to do what supports one's practice and peaceful life, and to set aside things that hinder them.

Happy to have you join us here!

Happy to be here and re-assured by your post as well regarding precepts

[greenobeeno]

I've taken time to reflect on Jodo-shu and read more from Honen and Shinran. I've accepted Amida Buddha's help fully and have decided to keep reading the works of the masters. As a Jodo-shu affiliate, would there be any great issue to attend a Jodo-shin temple?

My understanding based on reading Shinran and Rennyo Shonin is that they keep nembutsu recitation practice but remove merit from chanting nembutsu and see Shinjin or Total Faith in Amida as primiary. They also seem to not really discuss ethics/precepts but I've not looked into that enough to conclude anything.

Am I making a bigger distinction than exists between Jodo-shu and Shinshu?

Thanks for any help,

James

[User 3495]

A big difference is the practice. Jodo Shu focuses on the daily and continuous recitation of the nenbutsu and in Jodo Shinshu the nenbutsu is recited occasionally during the day or even less. In Jodo Shu the most common form of the nenbutsu is "namu amida bu" while Jodo Shinshu members usually say "namanda" as a shortened form. There are several differences in ritual, other practices and philosphy but Shinran was a disciple of Honen and never considered himself as the founder of a new school.

[明安 Myoan]

Additionally, Honen Shonin stresses the Threefold Devotional Heart, while Shinran stresses Shinjin. The style of each master is also very different.

The webmaster at Rinkaian Temple (previous post) welcomes questions if you need information about Jodo Shu.

[greenobeeno]

I guess that's partially my concern with Jodo-Shu: if I don't recite continuously, am I messing up?

Doing some number in the morning and evening is do-able, as is the night time recitations too. But I sometimes feel confused about what's what. I'd hate to go with Jodo-Shu and realize that I am stressing too much on recitation when I should be reflecting moreso on the Primary Vow like in Shinshu. Then, with Shinshu the doctrine of Shinran and especially Rennyo makes me feel more confidence in how many times I can recite since the first one in Shinshu leads to the Pure Land while the rest are an expression of gratitude. However, Honen is clearly different on this since he stresses multi-recitation and that nembutsu carries great merit and wipes out negative karma.

This will take a great deal of time to sort out but I need to be honest with myself about what I can commit to as a married lay Buddhist.

Thanks as always!