Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

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mansurhirbi87
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Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

What do you think of the opinion that Pure Land buddhism is alienated from this world and is concerned much more with the afterlife ?

I'd like to know more about the relation between Pure Land buddhism and enganged buddhism. I read Alfred bloom book about the subject but i fount it not good.


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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: IS PURE LAND AN ALIENATED KIND OF BUDDHISM

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My understanding is that pure land Buddhist can be regarded (practiced) on two levels. A common level and a profound level. The two are not mutually exclusive, and one is not better than the other. So, don’t be misled by the terms. Each is a valid practice. Each is profound in its own right.

On the ‘common’ level, yes, it is just as you say.
Basically, chant the name, go there when you die.

On the profound level, life and death are illusory; we die and take rebirth every moment; the pure land is right here now, all around us; reciting the name with that understanding brings one to realize it.

In either case, ‘faith’ in Amitabha is a very good exercise in letting go of ego and attachment, which is crucial for realization and liberation from samsara.
EMPTIFUL.
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cjdevries
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Re: IS PURE LAND AN ALIENATED KIND OF BUDDHISM

Post by cjdevries »

There's a new book on Pure Land Buddhism that's really good; it written by Charles Jones. It's called Pure Land: History, Tradition, and Practice. It may or may not have the answers you're looking for, but it is worth reading IMO. He talks about how Pure Land evolved; how it travelled to different cultures, and how different Pure Land teachers had breakthroughs that led to greater understanding of how Pure Land works.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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FiveSkandhas
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Re: IS PURE LAND AN ALIENATED KIND OF BUDDHISM

Post by FiveSkandhas »

It's important to remember there are a number of different Pure Land doctrines and approaches to practice.

In Japan there is currently a very significant emphasis on engaged Buddhism in the Jodo-Shinshu sect in particular. This is the largest sect of any form of Buddhism in Japan.

The topic of engaged Buddhism itself is a thorny one and I won't get into my own opinions on the matter. However, it is worth noting that many members of Jodo-Shinshu have embraced it enthusiastically. Exactly what this means and how it is "justified" doctrinally is an issue that remains debated and in a kind of experimental stage.

If you look at the non-doctrinal history of the Pure Land schools in Japan, you will see they have always been deeply involved with "this-worldly" matters...not always without profound controversy. Within the past several centuries, Jodo-Shinshu sect has also served as a powerful community-binding force among Japanese emigrants in places like Hawaii and Brazil.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
mansurhirbi87
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Re: IS PURE LAND AN ALIENATED KIND OF BUDDHISM

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:45 am It's important to remember there are a number of different Pure Land doctrines and approaches to practice.

In Japan there is currently a very significant emphasis on engaged Buddhism in the Jodo-Shinshu sect in particular. This is the largest sect of any form of Buddhism in Japan.

The topic of engaged Buddhism itself is a thorny one and I won't get into my own opinions on the matter. However, it is worth noting that many members of Jodo-Shinshu have embraced it enthusiastically. Exactly what this means and how it is "justified" doctrinally is an issue that remains debated and in a kind of experimental stage.

If you look at the non-doctrinal history of the Pure Land schools in Japan, you will see they have always been deeply involved with "this-worldly" matters...not always without profound controversy. Within the past several centuries, Jodo-Shinshu sect has also served as a powerful community-binding force among Japanese emigrants in places like Hawaii and Brazil.
ok. so in Jodo Shinshu, could you give me some rsources about the subject,please. it's hard to me to find them
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: IS PURE LAND AN ALIENATED KIND OF BUDDHISM

Post by FiveSkandhas »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:34 am
ok. so in Jodo Shinshu, could you give me some rsources about the subject,please. it's hard to me to find them
Google:
Jodo Shinshu engaged Buddhism.
I cannot speak for the quality of the information, but there is a fair amount.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Yungdrung Gyalpo
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

This is a very naive and incompetent question, I do not know much in this field, but I wonder: why should a practice of Buddhism be regarded as "alienated" just because it does not fit with our Western expectations, i.e., that Buddhism should all be about meditating here and now in order to discern the true nature of things and get rid of ignorance and the passions through this practical knowledge? I mean, insofar as even the most extreme (Shinran-type) forms of Pure Land Buddhism are well-rooted in texts regarded as genuine by all the Mahāyānist, whether they follow the Chinese canons or the Tibetan canons, and as they are quite feasible (though disconcerting) interpretations of those texts, who are we to say that this is an alienated form of Buddhism ? Now I do not fully grasp how this question gets connected with the "this-worldly" orientation of present days Jōdō-Shinshū, maybe your problem is not at all about the doctrine as such, but about what this social group actually does, of which I have no clue…
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Typically, there is the benefit of Amida Buddha's protection after breakup of the body. This is a precious thing in this world where death can happen to anyone, any time, any place.

During this life, practice varies greatly by school.

In the Japanese Jodo Shu sect, Honen Shonin teaches that continual recitation of nembutsu, looking up to Amida Buddha as ordinary beings, naturally leads to the Three Minds and Four Modes of Practice. These are basically a peaceful life, growing in the Dharma, thinking of Amida Buddha every day.
He says the power of Amida Buddha transforms someone's karmic nature like a broken tile into gold. Master Shantao described it as an intimate karmic relationship with Amida Buddha, like a parent and child.

It's just that the ability to be virtuous or meaningfully change society, some kind of transformation, is not a prerequisite to benefiting from calling on Amida Buddha, from deepening the relationship.
The true is same for many other buddhas and mantras, BTW. Speech is powerful.

As a note, the vow to save all beings can be accomplished by first attaining birth in the Pure Land, then returning to this Saha world. Shantao wrote to perform virtue in a straightforward way, and dedicate the merit towards birth in the Pure Land. That is, what do you hope happens from the action?

To think Pure Land practices have nothing to do with this life as human beings in this time/place is a misunderstanding, but easy to clear up.
Check out Dialogues with Ancient Masters to see how nianfo intersects with Chan practice.
Or Buddhism of Wisdom and Faith for a view on how Pure Land fits into Mahayana Buddhism and the Bodhi-mind.
Pure Land Zen Zen Pure Land is great advice for laypeople and all the problems they endure.
So is Taming the Monkey Mind.
Did I mention that you can find all of these works online for free, legally?

Pure Land schools are Mahayana and Vajrayana practices in the Dharma, so the benefits are vast.

:thumbsup:
Namu Amida Butsu
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:28 am This is a very naive and incompetent question, I do not know much in this field, but I wonder: why should a practice of Buddhism be regarded as "alienated" just because it does not fit with our Western expectations, i.e., that Buddhism should all be about meditating here and now in order to discern the true nature of things and get rid of ignorance and the passions through this practical knowledge? I mean, insofar as even the most extreme (Shinran-type) forms of Pure Land Buddhism are well-rooted in texts regarded as genuine by all the Mahāyānist, whether they follow the Chinese canons or the Tibetan canons, and as they are quite feasible (though disconcerting) interpretations of those texts, who are we to say that this is an alienated form of Buddhism ? Now I do not fully grasp how this question gets connected with the "this-worldly" orientation of present days Jōdō-Shinshū, maybe your problem is not at all about the doctrine as such, but about what this social group actually does, of which I have no clue…
I did not say it is my opinion that it's a form of alienated kind of buddhism. And about my problems i guess i know them better than you.
By the way this kind of criticism toward Pure Land buddhism comes since Feudal Japan.
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 am What do you think of the opinion that Pure Land buddhism is alienated from this world and is concerned much more with the afterlife ?

I'd like to know more about the relation between Pure Land buddhism and enganged buddhism. I read Alfred bloom book about the subject but i fount it not good.


Moderator note: I lowercased the title. Please don't post in all caps, it is equivalent to yelling. - Hazel
It’s concerned with liberation from Samsara which is the problem Buddhism seeks to address.
Malcolm
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by Malcolm »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:13 pm By the way this kind of criticism toward Pure Land buddhism comes since Feudal Japan.
So what?
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:11 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:13 pm By the way this kind of criticism toward Pure Land buddhism comes since Feudal Japan.
So what?
so, i understood that the other brother was saying this criticism was something new, something western.
is it clear ?
Last edited by mansurhirbi87 on Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:48 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 am What do you think of the opinion that Pure Land buddhism is alienated from this world and is concerned much more with the afterlife ?

I'd like to know more about the relation between Pure Land buddhism and enganged buddhism. I read Alfred bloom book about the subject but i fount it not good.


Moderator note: I lowercased the title. Please don't post in all caps, it is equivalent to yelling. - Hazel
It’s concerned with liberation from Samsara which is the problem Buddhism seeks to address.
it's not my point
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:06 am
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:48 pm
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 am What do you think of the opinion that Pure Land buddhism is alienated from this world and is concerned much more with the afterlife ?

I'd like to know more about the relation between Pure Land buddhism and enganged buddhism. I read Alfred bloom book about the subject but i fount it not good.


Moderator note: I lowercased the title. Please don't post in all caps, it is equivalent to yelling. - Hazel
It’s concerned with liberation from Samsara which is the problem Buddhism seeks to address.
it's not my point
Well that’s the engagement otherwise it’s all just a show

When I trained at a Jodo Shinshu centre they taught it as a path of reintegration I went on and had a Web Development career thanks to their impetus
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by DewachenVagabond »

IMO, most ordinary Buddhists should aspire to be reborn in a pure land, whether they are formally Pure Land Buddhists belonging to a group like Jodo Shinshu or not. As for your question, especially as it relates to Japanese Pure Land Buddhism (which I think your question is most relevant to), I think Myoan answered it well. The benefits of the Buddha's protection, the 3 minds or Shinjin (depending on the school), and the benefit of continual buddhanusmirti are enough that I don't think you can say that Pure Land Buddhism is an alienated form of Buddhism. I think that's just a sectarian polemic.
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mansurhirbi87
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:53 am
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:06 am
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:48 pm

It’s concerned with liberation from Samsara which is the problem Buddhism seeks to address.
it's not my point
Well that’s the engagement otherwise it’s all just a show

When I trained at a Jodo Shinshu centre they taught it as a path of reintegration I went on and had a Web Development career thanks to their impetus
My question is simple to understand.
I'm not sure if you can judge what is a real buddhist subject or a show.
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by Zhen Li »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 amWhat do you think of the opinion that Pure Land buddhism is alienated from this world and is concerned much more with the afterlife ?
It has the same approach as all forms of Buddhism. Problems in this life are caused by seeing them incorrectly. All sufferings are caused by delusion (avidyā).

Therefore, if we work to cut off ignorance we can resolve issues in our lives. Social action is a misguided form of engaged Buddhism which is based on a forgetting of the Buddha's core message, but some people see it as the only possible application to this world.

Pure Land and other Mahāyāna sects see things differently in as much as in the Pure Land sects we rely on the power of Amitābha to transform into a Buddha. This takes place in the Pure Land. However, Amitābha transfers merits to us in this life as well if we entrust to him, and all good and benefits manifested thereafter are entirely his doing. Personally, after entrusting in Amitābha, I have seen a transformation in my life and others on this forum can attest to a similar experience. But this is not always the case.
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:34 amI'd like to know more about the relation between Pure Land buddhism and enganged buddhism. I read Alfred bloom book about the subject but i fount it not good.
Can you please specify which book by Alfred Bloom you are referring to? I don't know of any book he wrote on the topic of Engaged Buddhism but there is a memorial volume in his honour that was edited by Ken Tanaka.
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

The book is : Engaged Shin Buddhism - Alfred Bloom. i guess it's easy to find on net

i had this question since a long time. A couple of hours ago i just found a book i guess can help me a lot : Ethics and Society in Contemporary Shin Buddhism – Ugo Dessi. It's on academia.edu for free.
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:51 am The book is : Engaged Shin Buddhism - Alfred Bloom. i guess it's easy to find on net

i had this question since a long time. A couple of hours ago i just found a book i guess can help me a lot : Ethics and Society in Contemporary Shin Buddhism – Ugo Dessi. It's on academia.edu for free.
I hope your experience with engaged Buddhism works out well for you.

I'm going to leave you a link to a book called the Anjin Ketsujo Sho. It was written anonymously in medieval times, and highly esteemed by Jodo-Shinshu Buddhists ever since. Master Rennyo, in particular, called it a "treasure trove" and was influenced highly by it.

I think you should have at least a little exposure to "classical", more purely doctrinal Jodo-Shinshu thought in addition to its currently more engaged form. This book is not long, probably more accessable than most of Shinran Shonin's work, and it's never a waste to engage with a classic primary source.

Even so, it might be a bit of a struggle for somebody not used to Jodo-Shinshu thought, but my advice is to take it slowly, wrestle with it if needs be, and feel the nuance. Hopefully you will find it as valuable and illuminating as generations of pure-land practioners have.

Link:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/aks.html

In Gassho,

FiveSkandhas

南無阿弥陀仏
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
mansurhirbi87
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Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:58 am
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:51 am The book is : Engaged Shin Buddhism - Alfred Bloom. i guess it's easy to find on net

i had this question since a long time. A couple of hours ago i just found a book i guess can help me a lot : Ethics and Society in Contemporary Shin Buddhism – Ugo Dessi. It's on academia.edu for free.
I hope your experience with engaged Buddhism works out well for you.

I'm going to leave you a link to a book called the Anjin Ketsujo Sho. It was written anonymously in medieval times, and highly esteemed by Jodo-Shinshu Buddhists ever since. Master Rennyo, in particular, called it a "treasure trove" and was influenced highly by it.

I think you should have at least a little exposure to "classical", more purely doctrinal Jodo-Shinshu thought in addition to its currently more engaged form. This book is not long, probably more accessable than most of Shinran Shonin's work, and it's never a waste to engage with a classic primary source.

Even so, it might be a bit of a struggle for somebody not used to Jodo-Shinshu thought, but my advice is to take it slowly, wrestle with it if needs be, and feel the nuance. Hopefully you will find it as valuable and illuminating as generations of pure-land practioners have.

Link:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/aks.html

In Gassho,

FiveSkandhas

南無阿弥陀仏
Thank you, brother
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