I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

My main attraction to Nichiren, 45 years into it, is the whole process of making one's life better. All of Nichiren's Gosho are showing us the way to this accomplishmnet. What does Nichiren want of us? To work on ourselves through the core practice of lessening one's karmic retribution and blowing out karma completely.

I'm not that knowledgable about Tendai. Proof in point it was only due to QQ that I was pointed out that Nichiren was a TenDai priest. So why leave and create something with an entire different approach towards the accomplishment of Buddhahood during Mappo.

It's because of Mappo, and the sentients that dwell in it and come to it. They are not the same as those sentients who lived during the former and middle day of the Law. The same in the sense of their karmic state . Really defiled candidates need Mappo . It's all part and parcel to our evolution .
I firmly believe we are one and the same with the Earth systems we come from evolutionary wise. It's sentients karma that affects the very structure of our envirorment.The practice is in our DNA, so to speak. Not actually but sort of. This process is part and parcel to the universe. Just like the universe creates a human being with an immune system, so too this practice is a product of the same wisdom innate in the universe.

Just like today scientists are crying out for us to stop polluting our system, Nichiren saw the root cause. His aim was in establishing Kosen Rufu. A cleansing of the world system. For this unfamiliar of his theory,He states if 1/3 practice His Teachings, 1/3 are neither for or against it and 1/3 are against doing it, Kosen Rufu will be established and the actual weather will be one of no harm.
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:07 pm So we wish to extinguish that which is the root cause to suffering, Karma.
This is why in Mappo with the teachings of Nichiren there is the best opportunity for sentients to accomplish this. And to once again go back to my saying I see Buddhism as a means to get back in tune with Mother Nature(for lack of a better word to describe where I am going here) Buddhism is all about us and our relationship with our environment. The beauty of our ecosystems and immunity systems and all the wisdom that keeps this incredible world happening.
Also I believe it's the gods and enlightened ones that are responsible for this aspect of the world we dwell in with these incredible bodies. they allow it to be beautiful instead of some horrid nightmarish land of noxious fumes and ugliness.
Whatever that is, it is not Buddha-dharma. You'd be hard pressed to find any support for your views in Nichiren's writings.
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.
No where does He state this, because there is no end to samsara. It will never have an end.
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
-On Attaining Buddhahood in this Lifetime

So, you were saying...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:35 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:07 pm So we wish to extinguish that which is the root cause to suffering, Karma.
This is why in Mappo with the teachings of Nichiren there is the best opportunity for sentients to accomplish this. And to once again go back to my saying I see Buddhism as a means to get back in tune with Mother Nature(for lack of a better word to describe where I am going here) Buddhism is all about us and our relationship with our environment. The beauty of our ecosystems and immunity systems and all the wisdom that keeps this incredible world happening.
Also I believe it's the gods and enlightened ones that are responsible for this aspect of the world we dwell in with these incredible bodies. they allow it to be beautiful instead of some horrid nightmarish land of noxious fumes and ugliness.
Whatever that is, it is not Buddha-dharma. You'd be hard pressed to find any support for your views in Nichiren's writings.
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.
No where does He state this, because there is no end to samsara. It will never have an end.
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
-On Attaining Buddhahood in this Lifetime

So, you were saying...
No you said
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.


Samsara always was and always will be.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind Nichiren's Teachings.
Is it possible you are not seeing the whole picture from what Nichiren left us.

His aim is to end the suffering from karmic retribution in samsara.
No where does say or in any Buddhist text that samsara will end.

As per my first quote/reply in this post.

I don't think you are adhering to Nichiren's teachings and are inserting your view on his teachings.

For example your take on samsara and what you think He is wishing for. I think He is more like me in thinking that the pure land is a really hard place to enter. Entry will happen but not till you attain full enlightenment in this life. There is a reason that the human form is the most sought after form for enlightenment.And add to that Mappo...the best time to practice the Lotus sutra as expressed by Nichiren.
I have been stressing the point that our enviorment and us are one and the same. Buddhism is about restoring the rhythm and quality of this relationship.

Eradicating the karma that causes disease of body , speech, mind and entity. TenDai practice becomes one of choice and not necessary. The way he describes it it's more of a hobby thing than the actual work needed in Mappo as expressed in The Lotus sutra.
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:17 am
illarraza wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:51 am
sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Although the Ongi Kuden is a pious forgery, here I think Nichiren would agree because this is clearly stated in the prose section of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra:

"The Tathagata knows and sees the appearance of the Three Worlds in accordance with reality: there is no Birth-and-Death, whether backsliding or emerging; likewise there is neither existence in the world nor extinction; they are not real; they are not void, they are not thus; they are not different. It is not as the Three Worlds* see the Three Worlds. In such a matter as this the Tathagata sees clearly and is without error."

*Three Worlds...the unenlightened worldlings of the past, present, and future.
If it's a forgery, then it's a pretty good one. It goes really in depth in explaining Nichiren's interpretation of this scripture. It's also more detailed and makes more sense (to me) than all the other commentaries I've read.
Yes, from a secular Nichiren point of view but Nichiren was not a secular Buddhist. His adoration for the eternal Buddha of preminent character was unmatched. If you wish, I have compared Nichiren's view of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra in his MOST important writing, the True Object of Worship with the view of the Tendai leaning author of the Ongi Kuden.

Mark
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Excellent question by the way!
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:17 am
illarraza wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:51 am
sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Although the Ongi Kuden is a pious forgery, here I think Nichiren would agree because this is clearly stated in the prose section of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra:

"The Tathagata knows and sees the appearance of the Three Worlds in accordance with reality: there is no Birth-and-Death, whether backsliding or emerging; likewise there is neither existence in the world nor extinction; they are not real; they are not void, they are not thus; they are not different. It is not as the Three Worlds* see the Three Worlds. In such a matter as this the Tathagata sees clearly and is without error."

*Three Worlds...the unenlightened worldlings of the past, present, and future.
If it's a forgery, then it's a pretty good one. It goes really in depth in explaining Nichiren's interpretation of this scripture. It's also more detailed and makes more sense (to me) than all the other commentaries I've read.
Yes...from a secular Nichiren point of view. However, Nichiren was not a secular Buddhist. His adoration for the eternal Buddha of preeminent character was unmatched. If you wish, I will post a comparison and contrast between Nichiren's view of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra in his MOST important writing, the True Object of Worship, with the view of the Tendai leaning author of the Ongi Kuden.

Mark
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Aemilius »

If you read carefully the Sravakayana suttas/sutras, they say that after death a Tathagata is not nonexistent.
And the teaching of the Twelve links says that the grasping to be extinguished includes grasping at existence and grasping at nonexistence.

I.e. you are not reborn anymore, but you are "not nonexistent" for 1000 000 000 years, for example (?)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:35 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:07 pm So we wish to extinguish that which is the root cause to suffering, Karma.
This is why in Mappo with the teachings of Nichiren there is the best opportunity for sentients to accomplish this. And to once again go back to my saying I see Buddhism as a means to get back in tune with Mother Nature(for lack of a better word to describe where I am going here) Buddhism is all about us and our relationship with our environment. The beauty of our ecosystems and immunity systems and all the wisdom that keeps this incredible world happening.
Also I believe it's the gods and enlightened ones that are responsible for this aspect of the world we dwell in with these incredible bodies. they allow it to be beautiful instead of some horrid nightmarish land of noxious fumes and ugliness.
Whatever that is, it is not Buddha-dharma. You'd be hard pressed to find any support for your views in Nichiren's writings.
No where does He state this, because there is no end to samsara. It will never have an end.
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
-On Attaining Buddhahood in this Lifetime

So, you were saying...
No you said
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.


Samsara always was and always will be.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind Nichiren's Teachings.
Is it possible you are not seeing the whole picture from what Nichiren left us.

His aim is to end the suffering from karmic retribution in samsara.
No where does say or in any Buddhist text that samsara will end.

As per my first quote/reply in this post.

I don't think you are adhering to Nichiren's teachings and are inserting your view on his teachings.

For example your take on samsara and what you think He is wishing for. I think He is more like me in thinking that the pure land is a really hard place to enter. Entry will happen but not till you attain full enlightenment in this life. There is a reason that the human form is the most sought after form for enlightenment.And add to that Mappo...the best time to practice the Lotus sutra as expressed by Nichiren.
I have been stressing the point that our enviorment and us are one and the same. Buddhism is about restoring the rhythm and quality of this relationship.

Eradicating the karma that causes disease of body , speech, mind and entity. TenDai practice becomes one of choice and not necessary. The way he describes it it's more of a hobby thing than the actual work needed in Mappo as expressed in The Lotus sutra.
You don't understand what "samsara" means.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death. When one awakens - attains Buddhahood, annuttara samyak sambodhi, samsara ends. Suffering ends. The cycle of birth and death ends. From the awakened view, there is no samsara.

From the 16th Chapter of the Lotus - Shakyamuni clearly says:
the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.
If what you assert were the case, that samsara is without beginning or end, the the Buddha would suffer and would not see the world clearly.

Deluded beings suffer and think that samsara is real. Buddhas do not.

If you think Nichiren deviates from this, then you are deeply mistaken. I offered you one quote. Here's another, writing to Shijo Kingo:
I deeply appreciate your visit here and your constant concern over the numerous persecutions that have befallen me. I do not regret meeting with such great persecutions as the votary of the Lotus Sutra. However many times I were to repeat the cycle of birth and death, no life could be as fortunate as this. [If not for these troubles,] I might have remained in the three or four evil paths. But now, to my great joy, I am sure to sever the cycle of the sufferings of birth and death, and attain the fruit of Buddhahood.
To become free or to sever the cycle of birth and death is to end samsara.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Aemilius
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Aemilius »

Samsara may end, but the manifestation of world doesn't end.
"Nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (with an essence)."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:09 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:35 pm

Whatever that is, it is not Buddha-dharma. You'd be hard pressed to find any support for your views in Nichiren's writings.




-On Attaining Buddhahood in this Lifetime

So, you were saying...
No you said
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.


Samsara always was and always will be.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind Nichiren's Teachings.
Is it possible you are not seeing the whole picture from what Nichiren left us.

His aim is to end the suffering from karmic retribution in samsara.
No where does say or in any Buddhist text that samsara will end.

As per my first quote/reply in this post.

I don't think you are adhering to Nichiren's teachings and are inserting your view on his teachings.

For example your take on samsara and what you think He is wishing for. I think He is more like me in thinking that the pure land is a really hard place to enter. Entry will happen but not till you attain full enlightenment in this life. There is a reason that the human form is the most sought after form for enlightenment.And add to that Mappo...the best time to practice the Lotus sutra as expressed by Nichiren.
I have been stressing the point that our enviorment and us are one and the same. Buddhism is about restoring the rhythm and quality of this relationship.

Eradicating the karma that causes disease of body , speech, mind and entity. TenDai practice becomes one of choice and not necessary. The way he describes it it's more of a hobby thing than the actual work needed in Mappo as expressed in The Lotus sutra.
You don't understand what "samsara" means.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death. When one awakens - attains Buddhahood, annuttara samyak sambodhi, samsara ends. Suffering ends. The cycle of birth and death ends. From the awakened view, there is no samsara.

From the 16th Chapter of the Lotus - Shakyamuni clearly says:
the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.
If what you assert were the case, that samsara is without beginning or end, the the Buddha would suffer and would not see the world clearly.

Deluded beings suffer and think that samsara is real. Buddhas do not.

If you think Nichiren deviates from this, then you are deeply mistaken. I offered you one quote. Here's another, writing to Shijo Kingo:
I deeply appreciate your visit here and your constant concern over the numerous persecutions that have befallen me. I do not regret meeting with such great persecutions as the votary of the Lotus Sutra. However many times I were to repeat the cycle of birth and death, no life could be as fortunate as this. [If not for these troubles,] I might have remained in the three or four evil paths. But now, to my great joy, I am sure to sever the cycle of the sufferings of birth and death, and attain the fruit of Buddhahood.
To become free or to sever the cycle of birth and death is to end samsara.
I know that samsara is something that we are trapped in.
It always was and always will be. When you say there is an end to samsara you are wrong .
Once Buddhahood is achieved one no longer is forced to dwell in samsara.
There is no end to Samsara.
One can end their cycle of dwelling in the cycles of Samsara but it will never end as a whole.

when you say
From the awakened view, there is no samsara.
That sounds a lil off .
That would mean that once attainment of Buddhahood happens there is no longer a samsaric problem existing for the Buddha to come to and the place where Buddhas can help out in.

You say I don't understand samsara, and yet I feel you have become far too nihilistic and don't see reality.

There is a huge problem when one becomes so detached from reality from misinterpreting Sunyata thinking it is non existent .

It leads to a complete misunderstanding of the reality of Samsara. Sunyata is a view , that existence in samsara has the nature of both existent and non existence. to say it does not exist when one attains Buddhahood is very wrong.

Maybe there are people who just hate life and want to think it's all a total illusion. they find comfort in nihilism .

Or they were not taught sunyata properly and they see everything as not real at all.
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:23 pm Samsara may end, but the manifestation of world doesn't end.
"Nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (with an essence)."
Right. Our friend does not understand what the term "samsara" means, particularly in a Mahayana context. Not understanding basic terms like this, and how they figure in the Buddha's teachings, leads to all manner of confusion.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:23 pm Samsara may end, but the manifestation of world doesn't end.
"Nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (with an essence)."

Right. Our friend does not understand what the term "samsara" means, particularly in a Mahayana context. Not understanding basic terms like this, and how they figure in the Buddha's teachings, leads to all manner of confusion.
If you actually read my posts , it might help you get over this conundrum you have created with your ill gotten views on reality.
I think the problem lies in your concept of
an end to samsara.
That's different than accomplishing buddhahood where one no longer is compelled without choice to enter Samsara.

also when you said
From the awakened view, there is no samsara.
this is inane to me.
so often when you try to explain what a Buddha is or has accomplished you get all confused. Because it is impossible to describe or discuss actually.
You actually think and talk like once one attains Buddhahood they no longer are capable of seeing or understanding Samsara .Or you think it's like some arcane mind now viewing that which is from a totally arbitrary view.

This is what I meant by people who are not enlightened trying to teach what it is like to be enlightened, and what Buddhas are and think like.


When you actually look to the OP our inter action here has been a perfect example of what worried Nichiren.
People misconstruing Buddhism, becoming nihilistic and over thinking what is not to be.

Your nihilism is your biggest problem. It leads to what you think is an actual intellectual understanding of reality and yet it is contrary to the view Sunyata demands.You dwell on what you think a Buddha is aware of and submerse yourself with nihilism.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm
sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:58 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am

This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude

I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
Eternalism is a basic "wrong view" in Buddhism. Moreover, the odds of being born human are extremely slim, and an undesirable birth is exponentially more likely. In general, one should want to seize the opportunity of this life to make causes to end the cycle of birth and death.

Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara. His teaching is aimed at generating the single moment of faith described in the 17th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra that indelibly puts one on the path to bodhi.
My understanding is that we do have some control over our future births, through how we conduct ourselves in our current lives. Those of us who live driven mostly by our most basic instincts are more likely to be reborn as animals. I'm sure there are many factors to it, but I think conduct plays an important role.
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

illarraza wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 pm
sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:58 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am

This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude

I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
The Lotus Sutra guarantees the faithful, "peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next." Chapter 18, The Benefits of Responding With Joy teaches in the prose section:

“Moreover, Ajita, suppose a person for the sake of this sutra visits a monks’ quarters and, sitting or standing, even for a moment listens to it and accepts it. As a result of the benefits so obtained, when he is reborn in his next existence he will enjoy the finest, most superior and wonderful elephants, horses, and carriages, and palanquins decked with rare treasures, and will mount up to the heavenly palaces. Or suppose there is a person who is sitting in the place where the Law is expounded, and when another person appears, the first person urges him to sit down and listen, or offers to share his seat and so persuades him to sit down. The benefits gained by this person will be such that when he is reborn he will be in a place where the lord Shakra is seated, where the heavenly king Brahma is seated, or where a wheel-turning sage king is seated.

“Ajita, suppose there is a person who speaks to another person, saying, ‘There is a sutra called the Lotus. Let us go together and listen to it.’ And suppose, having been urged, the other person goes and even for an instant listens to the sutra. The benefits of the first person will be such that when he is reborn he will be born in the same place as dharani bodhisattvas. He will have keen faculties and wisdom. For a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand ages he will never be struck dumb. His mouth will not emit a foul odor. His tongue will never be afflicted, nor will his mouth be afflicted. His teeth will not be stained or black, nor will they be yellow or widely spaced, nor will they be missing or fall out or be at an angle or crooked. His lips will not droop down or curl back or be rough or chapped or afflicted with sores or misshapen or twisted or too thick or too big or black or discolored or unsightly in any way. His nose will not be too broad or flat or crooked or too highly arched. His face will not be swarthy, nor will it be long and narrow, or sunken and distorted. He will not have a single unsightly feature. His lips, tongue, and teeth will all be handsomely proportioned. His nose will be long and high, his face round and full, his eyebrows long and set high, his forehead broad, smooth, and well shaped, and he will be endowed with all the features proper to a human being. In each existence he is born into, he will see the Buddha, hear his Law, and have faith in his teachings.

“Ajita, just observe! The benefits gained merely by encouraging one person to go and listen to the Law are such as this! How much more, then, if one single-mindedly hears, preaches, reads, and recites the sutra and before the great assembly makes distinctions for the sake of people and practices it as the sutra instructs!”

and in the verse section:

"I will now describe one’s blessings.
In existences to come among heavenly and human beings
one will acquire wonderful elephants, horses, carriages,
palanquins adorned with rare jewels,
and will mount to the palaces of heaven.
If in the place where the Law is expounded
one encourages someone to sit and hear the sutra,
the blessings one acquires will enable one
to gain the seat of Shakra, Brahma, and the wheel-turner.
How much more so if one listens single-mindedly,
explains and expounds the meaning,
and practices the sutra as the sutra instructs—
one’s blessings will know no bounds!"

In Chapter 28, Encouragements of the Bodhisattva Universal Worthy, we read:

“Their wishes will not be in vain, and in this present existence they will gain the reward of good fortune.”

and also,

“In this present existence he will have manifest reward for it.”

Nichiren has this to say in one of his most important writings which often brings tears of joy to my eyes:

"This sutra passage and my own experience tally exactly. By now all the doubts that I have raised earlier should be dispelled, and thousands of difficulties are nothing to me. Let me show you phrase by phrase how the text applies to me. “They may be despised,” or, as the Lotus Sutra says, people will “despise, hate, envy, or bear grudges against them”—and in exactly that manner I have been treated with contempt and arrogance for over twenty years. “They may be cursed with an ugly appearance,” “They may be poorly clad”—these too apply to me. “They may be poorly fed”—that applies to me. “They may seek wealth in vain”—that applies to me. “They may be born to an impoverished and lowly family”—that applies to me. “They may be persecuted by their sovereign”—can there be any doubt that the passage applies to me? The Lotus Sutra says, “Again and again we will be banished,” and the passage from the Parinirvāna Sutra says, “They may be subjected to various other sufferings and retributions.” [These passages also apply to me.]

The passage also says, “It is due to the blessings obtained by protecting the Law that they can diminish in this lifetime their suffering and retribution.” The fifth volume of Great Concentration and Insight has this to say on the subject: “The feeble merits produced by a mind only half intent on the practice cannot alter [the realm of karma]. But if one carries out the practice of concentration and insight so as to observe ‘health’ and ‘illness,’ then one can alter the cycle of birth and death [in the realm of karma].” It also says, “[As practice progresses and understanding grows], the three obstacles and four devils emerge in confusing form, vying with one another to interfere.”

From the beginningless past I have been born countless times as an evil ruler who deprived the votaries of the Lotus Sutra of their robes and rations, their fields and crops, much as the people of Japan in the present day go about destroying the temples dedicated to the Lotus Sutra. In addition, countless times I cut off the heads of the votaries of the Lotus Sutra. Some of these grave offenses I have already paid for, but there must be some that are not paid for yet. Even if I seem to have paid for them all, there are still ill effects that remain. When the time comes for me to transcend the sufferings of birth and death, it will be only after I have completely freed myself from these grave offenses. My merits are insignificant, but these offenses are grave.

and further down, Nichiren quotes the Nirvana Sutra:

“Although they do not seek emancipation, emancipation will come of itself.”

Nichiren teaches in On Practicing the Buddha's Teaching:

"...In their present existence the people will be freed from misfortune and disasters and learn the art of living long..."

One can feel the bad karma of a quintillion + lifetimes being expiated in a matter of months or years, in this very life. I can attest to the many times in this very life where I shouldn't have made it to this ripe old age of 67: At 3 years old, two neighbor boys hung me on a clothesline; avoiding two potentially devastating car accidents that should have been impossible to avoid; losing my kidneys 6 + years ago and still managing to work full time until May; cancer of the kidney; peritonitis three times in 2019 and a heart attack the second bout of peritonitis; someone pulling a gun on me just walking down the road. An infrarenal dissecting aneurism that fortunately went back into the aorta; blood pressures over two hundred, many days in the past, atherosclerosis throughout my body except my brain, and good looks :P. I'm now seeking part time work performing senior evaluations throughout East Central Ok.

The Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren teaches that there are Three Treasures: The treasure of material things; the treasure of the body, and most importantly, the treasures of the heart. The first two treasures I have had in abundance until 6 years ago, not even catching a cold for 7 or eight years prior and an upper middle class lifestyle. I wouldn't trade my treasures of the heart for a billion dollars or the good fortune to be without illness until I'm one hundred years old. Literally, I shed tears of joy daily. It is thanks to Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo, the Gohonzon, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo chapter of the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren that i can offer my thanks and praise to the Lotus Sutra today. Chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo fills me with the lifeforce that is draining. The Lotus Sutra is truly a great physician that can change poison into medicine as Bodhisattva Nagarjuna taught.

Mark
I haven't gotten that far in the sutra yet (still studying chapter 16) but I like that passage. I'm also happy to hear that this practice has helped you to overcome challenges and live a fruitful life! It's very encouraging.

I think accepting, or "having faith" is a lot difficult than it seems. It's more than just liking things said in the sutra, or paying lip service to it. To really accept these teachings, we also have to be willing to challenge our own wrong views, or we could never fully benefit from it. I know some members who have been practicing since the 60s but don't have much to show for it in their old age.

Even if we chant for 5+ hours every single day, if we aren't willing to challenge our wrong views, we won't derive much benefits at the end of the day. At least that's how I see it. I was born into the practice, but I never really understood it at the fundamental level, and thought of chanting as a wish fulfillment practice, chanting for material things. It wasn't until six- seven months ago that I realized how wrong I was, and how it affected my life negatively. Now I'm studying to deepen my understanding.
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:58 am If you read carefully the Sravakayana suttas/sutras, they say that after death a Tathagata is not nonexistent.
And the teaching of the Twelve links says that the grasping to be extinguished includes grasping at existence and grasping at nonexistence.

I.e. you are not reborn anymore, but you are "not nonexistent" for 1000 000 000 years, for example (?)
That's what I figured. Buddhism takes a "middle path" between eternalism and annhilationism. But this is beyond human conceptualization, and the meaning can't be captured by descriptions like "existent" or "nonexistent."
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:32 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:09 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:38 pm
No you said


Samsara always was and always will be.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind Nichiren's Teachings.
Is it possible you are not seeing the whole picture from what Nichiren left us.

His aim is to end the suffering from karmic retribution in samsara.
No where does say or in any Buddhist text that samsara will end.

As per my first quote/reply in this post.

I don't think you are adhering to Nichiren's teachings and are inserting your view on his teachings.

For example your take on samsara and what you think He is wishing for. I think He is more like me in thinking that the pure land is a really hard place to enter. Entry will happen but not till you attain full enlightenment in this life. There is a reason that the human form is the most sought after form for enlightenment.And add to that Mappo...the best time to practice the Lotus sutra as expressed by Nichiren.
I have been stressing the point that our enviorment and us are one and the same. Buddhism is about restoring the rhythm and quality of this relationship.

Eradicating the karma that causes disease of body , speech, mind and entity. TenDai practice becomes one of choice and not necessary. The way he describes it it's more of a hobby thing than the actual work needed in Mappo as expressed in The Lotus sutra.
You don't understand what "samsara" means.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death. When one awakens - attains Buddhahood, annuttara samyak sambodhi, samsara ends. Suffering ends. The cycle of birth and death ends. From the awakened view, there is no samsara.

From the 16th Chapter of the Lotus - Shakyamuni clearly says:
the Tathāgata perceives all the marks of the triple world as they really are: that there is no birth and death, coming or going; that there is also no existence or extinction in the world, truth or falsehood, sameness or difference. The Tathāgata does not view the triple world as sentient beings in the triple world see it. The Tathāgata perceives such things clearly and without mistakes.
If what you assert were the case, that samsara is without beginning or end, the the Buddha would suffer and would not see the world clearly.

Deluded beings suffer and think that samsara is real. Buddhas do not.

If you think Nichiren deviates from this, then you are deeply mistaken. I offered you one quote. Here's another, writing to Shijo Kingo:
I deeply appreciate your visit here and your constant concern over the numerous persecutions that have befallen me. I do not regret meeting with such great persecutions as the votary of the Lotus Sutra. However many times I were to repeat the cycle of birth and death, no life could be as fortunate as this. [If not for these troubles,] I might have remained in the three or four evil paths. But now, to my great joy, I am sure to sever the cycle of the sufferings of birth and death, and attain the fruit of Buddhahood.
To become free or to sever the cycle of birth and death is to end samsara.
I know that samsara is something that we are trapped in.
It always was and always will be. When you say there is an end to samsara you are wrong .
Once Buddhahood is achieved one no longer is forced to dwell in samsara.
There is no end to Samsara.
One can end their cycle of dwelling in the cycles of Samsara but it will never end as a whole.

when you say
From the awakened view, there is no samsara.
That sounds a lil off .
That would mean that once attainment of Buddhahood happens there is no longer a samsaric problem existing for the Buddha to come to and the place where Buddhas can help out in.

You say I don't understand samsara, and yet I feel you have become far too nihilistic and don't see reality.

There is a huge problem when one becomes so detached from reality from misinterpreting Sunyata thinking it is non existent .

It leads to a complete misunderstanding of the reality of Samsara. Sunyata is a view , that existence in samsara has the nature of both existent and non existence. to say it does not exist when one attains Buddhahood is very wrong.

Maybe there are people who just hate life and want to think it's all a total illusion. they find comfort in nihilism .

Or they were not taught sunyata properly and they see everything as not real at all.
The Buddha rejected both eternalism and annhilationism. For unenlightened beings like us, it's beyond understanding. But I think that as long as we live an ethical life, and follow the guidance of enlightened people like Nichiren, we have nothing to worry about after death. That's my take anyway.
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:19 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:23 pm Samsara may end, but the manifestation of world doesn't end.
"Nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (with an essence)."

Right. Our friend does not understand what the term "samsara" means, particularly in a Mahayana context. Not understanding basic terms like this, and how they figure in the Buddha's teachings, leads to all manner of confusion.
If you actually read my posts , it might help you get over this conundrum you have created with your ill gotten views on reality.
I think the problem lies in your concept of
an end to samsara.
That's different than accomplishing buddhahood where one no longer is compelled without choice to enter Samsara.

also when you said
From the awakened view, there is no samsara.
this is inane to me.
so often when you try to explain what a Buddha is or has accomplished you get all confused. Because it is impossible to describe or discuss actually.
You actually think and talk like once one attains Buddhahood they no longer are capable of seeing or understanding Samsara .Or you think it's like some arcane mind now viewing that which is from a totally arbitrary view.

This is what I meant by people who are not enlightened trying to teach what it is like to be enlightened, and what Buddhas are and think like.


When you actually look to the OP our inter action here has been a perfect example of what worried Nichiren.
People misconstruing Buddhism, becoming nihilistic and over thinking what is not to be.

Your nihilism is your biggest problem. It leads to what you think is an actual intellectual understanding of reality and yet it is contrary to the view Sunyata demands.You dwell on what you think a Buddha is aware of and submerse yourself with nihilism.
Nichiren taught that Samsara (the world of delusion) is the Nine Worlds and Nirvana (the World of Enlightenment) is the Tenth World. He also taught that the Buddha also possesses the Nine Worlds. For example, that the Buddha experiences hunger proves that he possesses the World of Hunger. Therefore Minobu, I believe that you are correct.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

sanshoshima wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:30 am
Minobu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:32 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:09 pm

You don't understand what "samsara" means.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death. When one awakens - attains Buddhahood, annuttara samyak sambodhi, samsara ends. Suffering ends. The cycle of birth and death ends. From the awakened view, there is no samsara.

From the 16th Chapter of the Lotus - Shakyamuni clearly says:



If what you assert were the case, that samsara is without beginning or end, the the Buddha would suffer and would not see the world clearly.

Deluded beings suffer and think that samsara is real. Buddhas do not.

If you think Nichiren deviates from this, then you are deeply mistaken. I offered you one quote. Here's another, writing to Shijo Kingo:



To become free or to sever the cycle of birth and death is to end samsara.
I know that samsara is something that we are trapped in.
It always was and always will be. When you say there is an end to samsara you are wrong .
Once Buddhahood is achieved one no longer is forced to dwell in samsara.
There is no end to Samsara.
One can end their cycle of dwelling in the cycles of Samsara but it will never end as a whole.

when you say
From the awakened view, there is no samsara.
That sounds a lil off .
That would mean that once attainment of Buddhahood happens there is no longer a samsaric problem existing for the Buddha to come to and the place where Buddhas can help out in.

You say I don't understand samsara, and yet I feel you have become far too nihilistic and don't see reality.

There is a huge problem when one becomes so detached from reality from misinterpreting Sunyata thinking it is non existent .

It leads to a complete misunderstanding of the reality of Samsara. Sunyata is a view , that existence in samsara has the nature of both existent and non existence. to say it does not exist when one attains Buddhahood is very wrong.

Maybe there are people who just hate life and want to think it's all a total illusion. they find comfort in nihilism .

Or they were not taught sunyata properly and they see everything as not real at all.
The Buddha rejected both eternalism and annhilationism. For unenlightened beings like us, it's beyond understanding. But I think that as long as we live an ethical life, and follow the guidance of enlightened people like Nichiren, we have nothing to worry about after death. That's my take anyway.
First up I like your responses and you are in my opinion well on your way. It is, as you said, about what we do here that decides our next rebirth. If you keep a steady Nichiren practice up , even if it is on again off again, as long as you respect the teaching , you will find yourself back as a human. If not the teachings are wrong, which I doubt. Thing is ,never forget you are part of the universe. Your actions dictate your place in the universe.

Now this is just me thinking out loud...If you live a life and are a really horrible person, like way up there on the evil scale...there is a place for you in the human realm....If you are like a strong practitioner and actually perform well as a Buddhist...there is a place for you in the human realm....

As for externalism , this is something QQ decided I was referring to. It wasn't. He puts words in my mouth then talks ill of me.
He likes telling me I know nothing and don't understand Buddhism. Ignores what I really say.
I enjoy learning about this aspect of humanity, it always amazes me. Recently my building manager who made my life hard for 15 years was fired, and all is well now. It always works out for me.

It's cool they too have a Buddha nature and one day ....will attain Buddhahood..
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

QQ all I have tried to say is that if one blows out their karma they no longer are forced to enter Samsara.
It does not mean that samsara has an ending.
I've read your posts in this thread many times and on this point I think I might have got caught up in semantics.
Add that to you saying I don't know samsara and I was trying to see how you could think that of me. So I interpreted your words with that in mind.


Then...
Which led me to perceive something in the way you describe how a Buddha views samsara .



There is reality and if one attains Buddhahood all of a sudden they don't view samsara anymore as real like you pointed out.

it's btw real and not real...or viewing the aspect of existence and the aspect of non existence at the same time as one...there is a real aspect to it.
Last edited by Ayu on Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Removed a slight ad hominem. Discussion is possible without that.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:29 am QQ all I have tried to say is that if one blows out their karma they no longer are forced to enter Samsara.
It does not mean that samsara has an ending.
I've read your posts in this thread many times and on this point I think I might have got caught up in semantics.
Add that to you saying I don't know samsara and I was trying to see how you could think that of me. So I interpreted your words with that in mind.


Then...
Which led me to perceive something in the way you describe how a Buddha views samsara .



There is reality and if one attains Buddhahood all of a sudden they don't view samsara anymore as real like you pointed out.

it's btw real and not real...or viewing the aspect of existence and the aspect of non existence at the same time as one...there is a real aspect to it.
Here is the thing about samsara - it's a name for the way an unawakened person experiences their mind. When they wake, attain bodhi, the way the mind is experienced by an unawakened person ends. Moreover, another person's delusions are not our own. That is the knot they must unbind. We have our own knot that must be unbound, and others, even the Buddha, cannot unbind this for us. Therefore, when one awakens, samsara ends. Full stop. The fact that other beings continue to struggle through delusions, its not viewed as samsara because that would mean the viewer is defiled, but the Buddha has completely severed defilement and fully realized wisdom, so we can't say samsara continues after bodhi.

Say a person loses their keys and are distressed. Someone else in the room sees the keys. They do not share the distress of the other and by telling the other where the keys are can end their distress. We run around stressed and suffering because we do not understand what is happening in our mind. The Buddha sees this clearly and can guide us out of our distress.

The reality that is common to all ten worlds is the so-called True Aspect 実相, the way things really are as understood by buddhas. Only buddhas completely understand this aspect. Even the most advanced bodhisattvas do not know the True Aspect in its entirety, even less those at lower levels of bodhisattva development and the other eight realms. In fact, fundamentally, we suffer because we do not understand the True Aspect. The entirety of samsara, even the dharmadhatu, arises because we fundamentally do not understand the reality of our mind.

The thing about mutual possession of the ten worlds - the Buddha does not experience hunger, and certainly not the way it is experienced in the preta realm, or the animal realm, or the human realm, or the bodhisattva realm, or the deva realm. In the form deva realm they don't experience hunger in the sense of a physical sensation because they don't have digestive systems like we have, and certainly not in the formless deva realms. Their "hunger" is a subtler grasping. A Buddha, on the other hand is connected to the Preta Realm because the delusion and overwhelming hunger experienced there is the cause of bodhi, the effect. Shakyamuni appeared as a human being in order to approach humans and teach us; as explained in the Lotus, birth at Lumbini, awakening at Gaya, teaching at Sarnath, and parinirvana at Kusinagara, was all a means of approaching humans to teach them bodhi. The Buddha did not act in reaction to his hunger, ie. he was not reacting to conditions impulsively as we tend to do. The Buddha was appearing in response to our capacities and conditions conducive to Bodhi in order to cause us to awaken.

To conceive of the Buddha as a human being who suffers, one reduces the Buddha to the limits of one's own human experience, which is fine to an extent - the Buddha appeared as a human being precisely so that we could relate to Buddha. However, there comes a point where viewing the Buddha as an ordinary human being becomes a limitation - a limitation imposed by our own mind. "I get hungry, so the Buddha must get hungry, too. I get angry, so the Buddha must get angry, too." That is not the Buddha - that's an ordinary, deluded person.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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