I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

QQ.
I have a hard time not seeing nihilism in your view. .
Also reading the last post I can't help but think you view Samsara as some kind of mind only school thing. It's just something perceived by the unenlightened.

Samsara from the view of sunyata is an enlightened view. That's all, a view into the make up of all things not inherent. Co-arising, co dependent and so on.
It does not mean it is some thing popping in and out of various modes of mind view, unenlightened experience pain and Buddhas don't feel pain.

No idea where you get this stuff from..

I'll leave it here with my final comment and give you the floor,and let the forum get on with itself.
Here is the thing about samsara - it's a name for the way an unawakened person experiences their mind. When they wake, attain bodhi, the way the mind is experienced by an unawakened person ends.
I see your statement as:
There is no room here for the existence aspect of sunyata. Actual existence, with a view that adds nonexistence so as to eliminate any thoughts of inherent existance. If anything is inherent it would mean no change. You would not be able to say two syllables.
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:17 pm
No idea where you get this stuff from..
Back atcha.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Aemilius »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:17 pm QQ.
I have a hard time not seeing nihilism in your view. .
Also reading the last post I can't help but think you view Samsara as some kind of mind only school thing. It's just something perceived by the unenlightened.

Samsara from the view of sunyata is an enlightened view. That's all, a view into the make up of all things not inherent. Co-arising, co dependent and so on.
It does not mean it is some thing popping in and out of various modes of mind view, unenlightened experience pain and Buddhas don't feel pain.

No idea where you get this stuff from..

I'll leave it here with my final comment and give you the floor,and let the forum get on with itself.
Here is the thing about samsara - it's a name for the way an unawakened person experiences their mind. When they wake, attain bodhi, the way the mind is experienced by an unawakened person ends.
I see your statement as:
There is no room here for the existence aspect of sunyata. Actual existence, with a view that adds nonexistence so as to eliminate any thoughts of inherent existance. If anything is inherent it would mean no change. You would not be able to say two syllables.
The idea of seeing all beings as Buddhas is common view, practice and experience in the Tantras. It is based on the teaching that five skandhas are empty of inherent existence, so they can be seen as Buddhas or as a Buddha. The Perfection of Wisdom sutras don't quite make that statement, as far as I know, but it is certainly implied by the teaching that a Bodhisattva is empty of a findable Bodhi-being(sattva) (in Conze's Short Perfection of Wisdom Sutras). And by other emptinesses in the lists of 18 or 20 emptinesses.

You can find several lists of emptinesses; 14, 16, 18, and 20 kinds of shunyata here https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 26014.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:17 pm QQ.
I have a hard time not seeing nihilism in your view. .
Also reading the last post I can't help but think you view Samsara as some kind of mind only school thing. It's just something perceived by the unenlightened.

Samsara from the view of sunyata is an enlightened view. That's all, a view into the make up of all things not inherent. Co-arising, co dependent and so on.
It does not mean it is some thing popping in and out of various modes of mind view, unenlightened experience pain and Buddhas don't feel pain.

No idea where you get this stuff from..

I'll leave it here with my final comment and give you the floor,and let the forum get on with itself.
Here is the thing about samsara - it's a name for the way an unawakened person experiences their mind. When they wake, attain bodhi, the way the mind is experienced by an unawakened person ends.
I see your statement as:
There is no room here for the existence aspect of sunyata. Actual existence, with a view that adds nonexistence so as to eliminate any thoughts of inherent existance. If anything is inherent it would mean no change. You would not be able to say two syllables.
I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:17 pm QQ.
I have a hard time not seeing nihilism in your view. .
Also reading the last post I can't help but think you view Samsara as some kind of mind only school thing. It's just something perceived by the unenlightened.

Samsara from the view of sunyata is an enlightened view. That's all, a view into the make up of all things not inherent. Co-arising, co dependent and so on.
It does not mean it is some thing popping in and out of various modes of mind view, unenlightened experience pain and Buddhas don't feel pain.

No idea where you get this stuff from..

I'll leave it here with my final comment and give you the floor,and let the forum get on with itself.
Here is the thing about samsara - it's a name for the way an unawakened person experiences their mind. When they wake, attain bodhi, the way the mind is experienced by an unawakened person ends.
I see your statement as:
There is no room here for the existence aspect of sunyata. Actual existence, with a view that adds nonexistence so as to eliminate any thoughts of inherent existance. If anything is inherent it would mean no change. You would not be able to say two syllables.
I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
According to Sunyata view nothing is inherant. Things can be innate but their aspect of emptiness are still the same. All things rely on other things to exist...codependancy ..co arising and so forth..Even Buddha is not inherent ..even the view of emptiness is empty of inherent existence. the view relies on so many things in order to get there.

don't mix up something being innate with inherency...it's not a thing it's a view. Buddha Nature is innate.

the word emptiness in this sense means "Empty of inherent existence". Something that is innate is empty of inherent existence .

because our reality has the aspect of both existence and nonexistence at the same time. Why..because if you take away one aspect of thing it is gone and because it relies on other things in order to appear....

it does'n really exist in and of itself. But it still exists.


A bell ...in order to have a bell ...mine the metal...smelt the metal...shape the metal ..tune the metal...all in order to have bellness to appear.

you need air water food society to be a healthy human .

In order to have homeostasis everything has to be in order...one thing gets deceased and it's gone until healing occurs.

It's a view...thats why Rev. Ryui said it is not really that big of deal like people make it into..I rejected that comment but over time I see where he came from.

The danger is always in nihilism..the middle path is lost and one sides with the idea nothing actually exists...or people think it is real and an inherent thing that's in my hand and because I can touch and use it ...it's real.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:12 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
Lil harsh I'd say.
People can live without understanding emptiness.
Also lets take the time to ask this.
Why did Nichiren leave TenDai?
What did he see ,. and how much could he actually say without looking at the time like someone in Europe saying the earth is round when everyone would just dismiss it as foolishness. eh? His was a job to undo the claims people were being told.

I fear people might think oh he thinks the Japanese at the time think the world is flat. that's not what I am saying here.

I see Nichiren as giving us the truth about the reality of what was being preached at the time. The promises being made to people in the name of religion.

The culture of controlling the populace.
In Christianity people are told of their reward in heaven . The simplicity of the way to their heaven is ridiculous. It's a weird control thing, when you think the jews actually know we reincarnate. Promise the peasantry a reward of eternal happiness in an afterlife and forgot about the misery placed upon here on earth.
This is what Nichiren was about .
But yeah I don't get the real reasons for leaving TenDai. I think a lot of what Nichiren really knew at the time is lost on people from a lack of the written word. It's 2022 and well, we are free to say what we want. One might be suppressed in certain areas but at least we don't get burned at the stake.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:12 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
Lil harsh I'd say.
People can live without understanding emptiness.
Simply true. One does not need to know emptiness to live. However, if one wants to speculate about its significance, it helps to actually understand what it is. I've long criticized Mark about his approach - he undertakes Shakubuku without the necessary learning to inform it. He has a tendency to merely echo critiques from the 13th c. Japan out of context in the present. It simply doesn't work. Its like a telemarketer working off a script trying to talk to a live person. There is no actual interaction - just repetition of what is written down as a response to a person who has been dead for centuries.
Also lets take the time to ask this.
Why did Nichiren leave TenDai?
1. Like others of his time, he estimated that the training required in Tendai is not accessible by most people. He was a creature of the debates of his time which critiqued the institutional Buddhism of his time and sought a popular form that could be accessible by all. The same pressures produced Honen and Shinran and other Pure Land thinkers. Nichiren adopted Honen's rationale but made the Lotus Sutra the focus of his popular teachings and practice.

2. He disagreed with the integration of Vajrayana methods with Tendai theory. But, his critique is more nuanced than a simple rejection. His students continued to study at Mt. Hiei, the center of Japanese Tendai, during and after his lifetime. And his teachings and practice exhibit significant Vajrayana influences.
The culture of controlling the populace.
In Christianity people are told of their reward in heaven . The simplicity of the way to their heaven is ridiculous. It's a weird control thing, when you think the jews actually know we reincarnate. Promise the peasantry a reward of eternal happiness in an afterlife and forgot about the misery placed upon here on earth.
This is what Nichiren was about .
But yeah I don't get the real reasons for leaving TenDai. I think a lot of what Nichiren really knew at the time is lost on people from a lack of the written word. It's 2022 and well, we are free to say what we want. One might be suppressed in certain areas but at least we don't get burned at the stake.
Note - we are coming to Nichiren's 800th birthday on Feb. 16, 2022.

I think you might be too influenced by European history in comparing Tendai to the Roman Catholic Church of the time. If anything, Nichiren's critique of Tendai institutions was that they were not doing enough to help ordinary people and were instead out of touch on the mountain. He was actually a "royalist" in that he favored the order under the Emperor rather than the de facto sovereignty of the Kamakura Shogun.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:39 pm



1. Like others of his time, he estimated that the training required in Tendai is not accessible by most people.


2. He disagreed with the integration of Vajrayana methods with Tendai theory.
1)Hmmmm. He understood what the teaching implied and he gave the world an expedient means to liberation through a practice warranted by the enlightened ones and Buddha. Anyone who practices can attest to this.

2) I have immersed my self in vajrayana and I will attest to the fact Nichiren's practice is very tantric. Pure tantra in simplicity brought about by the masters for the populace to accommodate the times and capacity of the people.

I think you might be too influenced by European history in comparing Tendai to the Roman Catholic Church of the time.
there is only one aspect I am comparing it to. Nichiren did not focus on the easy access to pure land. He gave a concrete practice in order to liberate the populace rapidly . Then of course entry is possible if one wishes it at that juncture.

But unlike the promise of entry into the pure land by chanting 3 Nembutsu chants he gave us what I feel is the real way to enter it.
For me , the pure land as a goal is a noble one, but I cannot see it as some easy thing to accomplish. There is my comparison.

If you just wish entry and think it easy , I think you are either deceived or really don't understand what it is about.

People get lost in a promise and forget to do the real work.
my opinion .
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by ronnymarsh »

sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Nichiren's teaching accords with the common view that has developed in Chinese Buddhism: there is essentially no distinction between Nirvana and Samsara.

There are two levels of understanding reality, according to Mahayana thought: paramartha and samvrti, or conventional truth and ultimate truth.

The distinction between Nirvana Samsara only has logic when viewed from the point of view of reality Samvrti, but loses all logic in Paramartha. Nichiren abandons the conventional view (samvrti) and adopts the paramartha view alone.

The difference between both realities can be compared with the distinction between the ontological and epistemological levels of western philosophy. By "ontology" [or paramartha] I mean the essential level, what is reality at the core, at the core of existence. By "epistemology" [or samvrti] I mean the level of interrelationships between entities.

When we make a distinction between Nirvana and Samsara we are dealing with reality at the level of interrelationships between beings. But at the essential, ontological level, both Samsara and Nirvana are equally SHUNYA, void of distinguishing qualities.

The implication of this is practical. That is, there is no need to practice to accumulate merits and attain the lower levels of enlightenment (both the lower 3 levels of Sravaka enlightenment and the 51 stages of bodhisattva enlightenment), since, Nirvana and Samsara being equally empty, there is nothing to conquer.

This is well explained and summarized in the Heart Sutra of Prajna Paramita. And in the Lotus Sutra this is expressed by the images of the Air ceremony where the Buddha reveals that he attained enlightenment in Gohyaku Jitengo and that since that time he had made disciples, the bodhisattvas of the earth, who likewise practice since that remote past. Therefore, everyone has already accumulated the merits to break with samsara and reach the highest stage of enlightenment, simply by expressing enlightenment in the relationship between Subjects and Objects (conventional reality).
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:29 pm
sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Nichiren's teaching accords with the common view that has developed in Chinese Buddhism: there is essentially no distinction between Nirvana and Samsara.

There are two levels of understanding reality, according to Mahayana thought: paramartha and samvrti, or conventional truth and ultimate truth.

The distinction between Nirvana Samsara only has logic when viewed from the point of view of reality Samvrti, but loses all logic in Paramartha. Nichiren abandons the conventional view (samvrti) and adopts the paramartha view alone.
This is not correct. He adopts the Inclusive Three Truths view of Tiantai. This is reflected in the recitation of the 10 factors 3 times when Nichiren Buddhists chant the Hobenpon. The significance of this is complicated, but basically, it emphasizes the dynamic and functional capacity of the Buddha in relation to sentient beings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:22 am
illarraza wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:25 pm
sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:58 am

Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
The Lotus Sutra guarantees the faithful, "peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next." Chapter 18, The Benefits of Responding With Joy teaches in the prose section:

“Moreover, Ajita, suppose a person for the sake of this sutra visits a monks’ quarters and, sitting or standing, even for a moment listens to it and accepts it. As a result of the benefits so obtained, when he is reborn in his next existence he will enjoy the finest, most superior and wonderful elephants, horses, and carriages, and palanquins decked with rare treasures, and will mount up to the heavenly palaces. Or suppose there is a person who is sitting in the place where the Law is expounded, and when another person appears, the first person urges him to sit down and listen, or offers to share his seat and so persuades him to sit down. The benefits gained by this person will be such that when he is reborn he will be in a place where the lord Shakra is seated, where the heavenly king Brahma is seated, or where a wheel-turning sage king is seated.

“Ajita, suppose there is a person who speaks to another person, saying, ‘There is a sutra called the Lotus. Let us go together and listen to it.’ And suppose, having been urged, the other person goes and even for an instant listens to the sutra. The benefits of the first person will be such that when he is reborn he will be born in the same place as dharani bodhisattvas. He will have keen faculties and wisdom. For a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand ages he will never be struck dumb. His mouth will not emit a foul odor. His tongue will never be afflicted, nor will his mouth be afflicted. His teeth will not be stained or black, nor will they be yellow or widely spaced, nor will they be missing or fall out or be at an angle or crooked. His lips will not droop down or curl back or be rough or chapped or afflicted with sores or misshapen or twisted or too thick or too big or black or discolored or unsightly in any way. His nose will not be too broad or flat or crooked or too highly arched. His face will not be swarthy, nor will it be long and narrow, or sunken and distorted. He will not have a single unsightly feature. His lips, tongue, and teeth will all be handsomely proportioned. His nose will be long and high, his face round and full, his eyebrows long and set high, his forehead broad, smooth, and well shaped, and he will be endowed with all the features proper to a human being. In each existence he is born into, he will see the Buddha, hear his Law, and have faith in his teachings.

“Ajita, just observe! The benefits gained merely by encouraging one person to go and listen to the Law are such as this! How much more, then, if one single-mindedly hears, preaches, reads, and recites the sutra and before the great assembly makes distinctions for the sake of people and practices it as the sutra instructs!”

and in the verse section:

"I will now describe one’s blessings.
In existences to come among heavenly and human beings
one will acquire wonderful elephants, horses, carriages,
palanquins adorned with rare jewels,
and will mount to the palaces of heaven.
If in the place where the Law is expounded
one encourages someone to sit and hear the sutra,
the blessings one acquires will enable one
to gain the seat of Shakra, Brahma, and the wheel-turner.
How much more so if one listens single-mindedly,
explains and expounds the meaning,
and practices the sutra as the sutra instructs—
one’s blessings will know no bounds!"

In Chapter 28, Encouragements of the Bodhisattva Universal Worthy, we read:

“Their wishes will not be in vain, and in this present existence they will gain the reward of good fortune.”

and also,

“In this present existence he will have manifest reward for it.”

Nichiren has this to say in one of his most important writings which often brings tears of joy to my eyes:

"This sutra passage and my own experience tally exactly. By now all the doubts that I have raised earlier should be dispelled, and thousands of difficulties are nothing to me. Let me show you phrase by phrase how the text applies to me. “They may be despised,” or, as the Lotus Sutra says, people will “despise, hate, envy, or bear grudges against them”—and in exactly that manner I have been treated with contempt and arrogance for over twenty years. “They may be cursed with an ugly appearance,” “They may be poorly clad”—these too apply to me. “They may be poorly fed”—that applies to me. “They may seek wealth in vain”—that applies to me. “They may be born to an impoverished and lowly family”—that applies to me. “They may be persecuted by their sovereign”—can there be any doubt that the passage applies to me? The Lotus Sutra says, “Again and again we will be banished,” and the passage from the Parinirvāna Sutra says, “They may be subjected to various other sufferings and retributions.” [These passages also apply to me.]

The passage also says, “It is due to the blessings obtained by protecting the Law that they can diminish in this lifetime their suffering and retribution.” The fifth volume of Great Concentration and Insight has this to say on the subject: “The feeble merits produced by a mind only half intent on the practice cannot alter [the realm of karma]. But if one carries out the practice of concentration and insight so as to observe ‘health’ and ‘illness,’ then one can alter the cycle of birth and death [in the realm of karma].” It also says, “[As practice progresses and understanding grows], the three obstacles and four devils emerge in confusing form, vying with one another to interfere.”

From the beginningless past I have been born countless times as an evil ruler who deprived the votaries of the Lotus Sutra of their robes and rations, their fields and crops, much as the people of Japan in the present day go about destroying the temples dedicated to the Lotus Sutra. In addition, countless times I cut off the heads of the votaries of the Lotus Sutra. Some of these grave offenses I have already paid for, but there must be some that are not paid for yet. Even if I seem to have paid for them all, there are still ill effects that remain. When the time comes for me to transcend the sufferings of birth and death, it will be only after I have completely freed myself from these grave offenses. My merits are insignificant, but these offenses are grave.

and further down, Nichiren quotes the Nirvana Sutra:

“Although they do not seek emancipation, emancipation will come of itself.”

Nichiren teaches in On Practicing the Buddha's Teaching:

"...In their present existence the people will be freed from misfortune and disasters and learn the art of living long..."

One can feel the bad karma of a quintillion + lifetimes being expiated in a matter of months or years, in this very life. I can attest to the many times in this very life where I shouldn't have made it to this ripe old age of 67: At 3 years old, two neighbor boys hung me on a clothesline; avoiding two potentially devastating car accidents that should have been impossible to avoid; losing my kidneys 6 + years ago and still managing to work full time until May; cancer of the kidney; peritonitis three times in 2019 and a heart attack the second bout of peritonitis; someone pulling a gun on me just walking down the road. An infrarenal dissecting aneurism that fortunately went back into the aorta; blood pressures over two hundred, many days in the past, atherosclerosis throughout my body except my brain, and good looks :P. I'm now seeking part time work performing senior evaluations throughout East Central Ok.

The Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren teaches that there are Three Treasures: The treasure of material things; the treasure of the body, and most importantly, the treasures of the heart. The first two treasures I have had in abundance until 6 years ago, not even catching a cold for 7 or eight years prior and an upper middle class lifestyle. I wouldn't trade my treasures of the heart for a billion dollars or the good fortune to be without illness until I'm one hundred years old. Literally, I shed tears of joy daily. It is thanks to Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo, the Gohonzon, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo chapter of the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren that i can offer my thanks and praise to the Lotus Sutra today. Chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo fills me with the lifeforce that is draining. The Lotus Sutra is truly a great physician that can change poison into medicine as Bodhisattva Nagarjuna taught.

Mark
That is

I haven't gotten that far in the sutra yet (still studying chapter 16) but I like that passage. I'm also happy to hear that this practice has helped you to overcome challenges and live a fruitful life! It's very encouraging.

I think accepting, or "having faith" is a lot difficult than it seems. It's more than just liking things said in the sutra, or paying lip service to it. To really accept these teachings, we also have to be willing to challenge our own wrong views, or we could never fully benefit from it. I know some members who have been practicing since the 60s but don't have much to show for it in their old age.

Even if we chant for 5+ hours every single day, if we aren't willing to challenge our wrong views, we won't derive much benefits at the end of the day. At least that's how I see it. I was born into the practice, but I never really understood it at the fundamental level, and thought of chanting as a wish fulfillment practice, chanting for material things. It wasn't until six- seven months ago that I realized how wrong I was, and how it affected my life negatively. Now I'm studying to deepen my understanding.
That is GREAT. You sound well ahead of the curve (in realization), not that my realization is further along.

M
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:12 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
From SGI dictionary: The unification of the Three Truths... A principle expounded by T’ien-t’ai on the basis of the Lotus Sutra, explaining the three truths of non-substantiality, temporary existence, and the Middle Way as an integral whole, each of the three possessing all three within itself. It teaches that these three are inseparable phases of all phenomena.

Also, the Ten Worlds, if they are not inherent, they are outside the person and that cannot be.

Mark
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

"Ten realms" IMO is an example of what Grandmaster Zhizhe (i.e. "Zhiyi") called "a dharma of enumeration." The number is irrelevant. There is "one world" as much as there are "ten." I can give a citation for this in a bit, but give me time.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:12 pm

This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
Lil harsh I'd say.
People can live without understanding emptiness.
Simply true. One does not need to know emptiness to live. However, if one wants to speculate about its significance, it helps to actually understand what it is. I've long criticized Mark about his approach - he undertakes Shakubuku without the necessary learning to inform it. He has a tendency to merely echo critiques from the 13th c. Japan out of context in the present. It simply doesn't work. Its like a telemarketer working off a script trying to talk to a live person. There is no actual interaction - just repetition of what is written down as a response to a person who has been dead for centuries.
Also lets take the time to ask this.
Why did Nichiren leave TenDai?
1. Like others of his time, he estimated that the training required in Tendai is not accessible by most people. He was a creature of the debates of his time which critiqued the institutional Buddhism of his time and sought a popular form that could be accessible by all. The same pressures produced Honen and Shinran and other Pure Land thinkers. Nichiren adopted Honen's rationale but made the Lotus Sutra the focus of his popular teachings and practice.

2. He disagreed with the integration of Vajrayana methods with Tendai theory. But, his critique is more nuanced than a simple rejection. His students continued to study at Mt. Hiei, the center of Japanese Tendai, during and after his lifetime. And his teachings and practice exhibit significant Vajrayana influences.
The culture of controlling the populace.
In Christianity people are told of their reward in heaven . The simplicity of the way to their heaven is ridiculous. It's a weird control thing, when you think the jews actually know we reincarnate. Promise the peasantry a reward of eternal happiness in an afterlife and forgot about the misery placed upon here on earth.
This is what Nichiren was about .
But yeah I don't get the real reasons for leaving TenDai. I think a lot of what Nichiren really knew at the time is lost on people from a lack of the written word. It's 2022 and well, we are free to say what we want. One might be suppressed in certain areas but at least we don't get burned at the stake.
Note - we are coming to Nichiren's 800th birthday on Feb. 16, 2022.

I think you might be too influenced by European history in comparing Tendai to the Roman Catholic Church of the time. If anything, Nichiren's critique of Tendai institutions was that they were not doing enough to help ordinary people and were instead out of touch on the mountain. He was actually a "royalist" in that he favored the order under the Emperor rather than the de facto sovereignty of the Kamakura Shogun.
Nichiren never stated only the most learned could perform the forceful practices. One can perform the forceful practices towards Islam, Christianity and even the MOST learned with a modicum of knowledge. The principle is, one taste of a drop of ocean and one knows the taste of the ocean everywhere. Here is one example why I believe you are wrong about who can perform the forceful practices and a "Gosho" I once wrote utilizing the gentle practices:

A chat with Doctor professor of Buddhism Richard Hayes

Dr Richard Hayes is a Professor of Buddhism at McGill University, expert on the Pali Canon, former Theravadan Buddhist, and currently a Quaker. Dr. Mark Rogow is a layman of the Hokke [Lotus] sect.

Richard: Doctor Rogow writes: "But Dr. Hayes repeatedly disparages the Lotus Sutra."

I doubt that anyone but you cares what Dr Hayes thinks about the Lotus Sutra, Mark. But, as long as you are saying what other people think, there is no harm in being accurate in what you report. First, I do not disparage the Lotus Sutra itself. What I disparage is your interpretation of it. You have taken a beautiful text, full of subtle poetry, and turned it into an ugly travesty by which you go around passing negative judgement on every other Buddhist in the world, except for Nichiren (whom you don't really understand, except that you have a shadowy affinity with him because he apparently shared the same psychotic character disorder that obviously afflicts you). It is what you do with the text that appals me, sir, not the text itself. Give it a rest, eh? Take a holiday from your obsessions. You might enjoy the break.
Mark: Richard, you are breaking another of your precious precepts (not to lie). Fortunately, we have Deja News in which to prove my assertions that you have both disparaged the Lotus Sutra and you are a liar. If you press the issue, I will do a meticulous search and post every last post of yours to prove my point. If you apologize to the Buddha and the Lotus Sutra you will surely spare yourself some future grief.
Richard: The point I have made a few times is that the Lotus is so subtle and symbolic and playful and satirical that it is very difficult to grasp its meaning without first knowing a great deal about the dharma.
Mark: Then you should refrain from commenting on its meaning and you should praise it as have all Buddhas throughout space and time.
Richard: But then if one knows the dharma from other sources, then one doesn't really need the Lotus Sutra, since it has very little of value to add.
Mark: Some proof please? Can you please cite the teachings of Ichinen Sanzen and the Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds anywhere save for the Lotus Sutra? Can you cite the prediction of Buddhahood for all beings without a single exception anywhere save for the Lotus Sutra? Can you cite the Eternal Life of the Tathagata anywhere save for the Lotus Sutra?
Richard: Because I say things like this, Mark Rogow says that I revile the Lotus Sutra.
Mark: Richard, whatever happened to Right Views and Right Memory? Advocating that we do not need the Lotus Sutra is to not revile it? Telling one's mother we do not need her is not to revile her?
Richard: And of course, following the peculiar logic of the Lotus Sutra itself, Mark is convinced that anyone who reviles the Lotus Sutra also reviles the Buddha and the Dharma.
Mark: Can we believe one who praises his good father while failing to praise his good mother? Can we believe that one heeds a good mother's instructions while reviling her? Scholarly understanding is not a necessary and sufficient condition for the aim of any Buddhist study, which is liberation.
Richard: I quite agree. Scholarly knowledge is not necessary, nor is it automatically sufficient for everyone. If one is really determined to be liberated, then that motivation can be used with any method to make one free.
Mark: Any Method? Even the historical Buddha taught only one method...The Eightfold Path.
Richard: The Buddha himself said that one can be liberated though intellectual work,
Mark: The Buddha's statement should not be taken out of the context of the entire canon. There are intellectuals working on better more efficient cruise missiles.
Richard: or through devotion to the Buddha
Mark: The Lotus Sutra is the mother of all Buddhas.
Richard: or through meditational practice, or through a combination of all three.
Mark: Some people meditate on how to make more money, attract more women, or on the Jesus Prayer. This is hardly what the Buddha had in mind. And if you think that by counting breaths alone, you can experience or attain Supreme Enlightenment, equal to that of the Buddha, you misunderstand the teachings. Yet, surely, one will achieve liberation by devoted practice and study of the Lotus Sutra alone given enough faith, even with only a superficial understanding of the context.
Richard: Right. I think this is much more likely to occur if one focuses on the positive messages of the Lotus Sutra.
Mark: The Lotus Sutra is stark naked reality. It is not a pie in the sky philosophy detatched from this world or a Pure Land beyond one's present situation. Punch a rock and you break your hand; deprecate a handsome person and you will be born ugly; rob a child of its food and one will suffer from hunger. Revile the Lotus Sutra and you become an anencephalic fetus in lifetime after lifetime for kalpas on end or suffer the worst afflictions imaginable, over and over and over, until one has expiated one's sin. Conversely, one who praises the Sutra will quickly attain Buddhood.
Richard: Unfortunately, some people just pick up on the negative tone of some parts of the Sutra, and they spend most of their time condemning other people, calling them dangerous, and saying they are leading billions of others to hell.
Mark: Only a fool would praise one who kills his mother.
Richard: People who are devoid of imagination and incapable of symbolic subtlety are likely to get dragged down into a kind of Lotus Sutra fundamentalism.
Mark: Those who are squinty eyed, bleary eyed, or blind can see little or nothing at all.
Richard: Their ranting then gives the entire sutra a bad reputation among other Buddhists.
Mark: Those who revile the Lotus Sutra are better off than those who have never heard the Sutra because they form a relationship to the Sutra. Those who form a relationship to the Sutra, whether that relationship is positive or negative come to understand the karmic Law of cause and effect.
Richard: I would add to that the importance of living according to the precepts. On a news group, people should give special attention to the four speech precepts: avoiding lying,
Mark: You are turning over a new leaf? Good for you Richard.
Richard: avoiding harsh and divisive speech, avoiding slanderous and libellous speech,
Mark: Then I can count on you to never once again deprecate the Lotus Sutra or its votaries?
Richard: and avoiding idle and pointless speech. (I keep thinking there ought to be a fifth speech precept encouraging being playful as much as possible so that you don't take yourself too damn seriously.
Mark: Isn't there a precept against jocularity Richard? Uhhoh, I caught you breaking the precepts again and in this, the Fearful Age! Thankfully, there are no longer any precepts Richard to be followed except one: Revere the Lotus Sutra and chant Namu Myoho renge kyo.
Richard: I'm sure if the Buddha had had eleven fingers instead of the usual ten, he would have had eleven precepts, making room for this important fifth one that I hanker to add.)
Mark: Richard, you really must go over the 500 precepts for monks. Are you not an extremely evil man for altering the teachings of the Buddha? If even a learned and wise man as yourself can not uphold the precepts, of what use are they for ignorant worldlings such as ourselves?
Richard: By the way, I don't expect that anybody but me reads everything that I write
Mark: I read much of what you write. You are a prolific writer. Why don't you determine to use your talents to praise the Lotus Sutra and bring benefit to the people?
Richard: and pays attention to the flak that I get from various quarters.
Mark: I only fault you for one thing Richard.
Richard: So probably nobody has noticed that Mark Rogow accuses me of hating the Dharma,
Mark: No Richard, I accuse you of praising the dharma but destroying its intent
Richard: Mark Vetanen accuses me of belonging to a dangerous and harmful cult so that I can have a better retirement and more worldly power,
Mark: I find that hard to believe about you.
Richard: and Mark Dunlop accuses me of being a disingenuous liar.
Mark: Don't be too hard on yourself Richard. As I have proven, according to Sutras, in this depraved age, in this degenerate age, there is not one person alive without faults.
Richard: I am plagued by three Marks. I reckon this proves the doctrine of karma. Because I was a Marxist in my youth, I am now a target for all these marksmen.
Mark: Very clever.
Richard: But I also look at the bright side. The Buddha was also bothered by three marks: impermanence, sorrow and non-self.
Mark: And that is why he taught the principles of permanence, joy, and true self.
Richard: And look at where that got him.
Mark: To the other shore

Now here my writing called the Gooseberry Gosho (based on the gentle practices):

The way to evaluate any phenomena, philosophy, or religion is through the Three Proofs. The first proof is documentary proof. The phenomena, philosophy or religion must exist through matter, energy and/or ideas. An example of a phenomena is a rock, an example of a philosophy is the Critique of Pure Reason by Emmanuel Kant, an example of a religion is the religion based on the Lotus Sutra. We know that these phenomena, philosophies and religions exists. It has been documentated that they exist.

Theoretical proof means that the phenomena, philosophy or religion can be evaluated by reasoning or scientific evidence. A rock has a certain weight, composition, structure etc. that can be measured. The Critique of Pure Reason can be evaluated through science and other philosophical works as to its classification(idealism), its structure(epistomology), its development etc.

Actual proof is the function of the rock, that it can be used in weights and measures, used to knock down an attacker, or ground up to become an abrasive. Reguarding religion and philosophy, actual proof is the measure that a philosophy or religion can change the individual or society.

The Chinese Gooseberry is a delectable fruit. It exists in the mid to southern latitudes. Its color varies from lime green to orange-yellow. It has a unique taste with hints of honey, ginger, cinnamon and coriander, strawberry and banana.

Can you imagine how it tastes? Let me give you some more information about this sublime fruit. It has 400 specialized enzymes that convert the nitrates, proteins and fats in the soil into various types of carbohydrates. The Chinese Gooseberry plant also uses photosynthesis to convert water and carbon dioxide into other sugars and carbohydrates that, thanks to this multitude of enzymes, are more varied and complex than in any other plant. The sugars and carbohdrates travel up and down the plants vascular system called the phloem and are concentrated in the fruit. The concentration of the various carbohydrates are 10.000% this and 12.567% that, 9.641% this and 49.210% that, and 1.879 % this… The Chinese Gooseberry is also chock full of phytonutrients and antioxidants like, flavins, tannins, lycopenes, Vit. A, C, and E. The Chinese Gooseberry tastes nothing like, rassberry, strawberry, blueberry, melon, apple, grapefruit, avocado, or the angostora bitter. These fruits too are composed principally of carbohydrates and are full of phytonutrients and vitamins but composed of vastly different types and in vastly different proportions. Can you now tell me how the Chinese Gooseberry tastes?

The Chinese Gooseberry is like the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo). It exists, this we know. We have abundant documentary proof of this. They both can be analyzed (see above for the Chinese Gooseberry). The Lotus Sutra contains the teachings of the Ten Worlds, Ten Factors, Three Realms, and 3000 Worlds in a Momentary Existence of Life. These teachings can be evaluated through science and through reason just as the gooseberry. Science and reason gives us a great deal of information as to the nature of the Chinese Gooseberry. Its form, it’s composition, its structure. However, as far as its taste, despite knowing all these things, our brains are too small to analyze all the data and experience the taste. Likewise, our brains are too small to analyze the data of 3000 Worlds in a Momentary Existence of Life to know exactly its ability to change the individual (become Buddha) and/or society (Buddha’s Land).

We must taste the Chinese Gooseberry, to know its taste (BTW, the Chinese Gooseberry is the Kiwi fruit). We can only taste the Lotus Sutra by chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo with one’s whole heart. We can only understand Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism by practicing as the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach.

Please excuse me being so long winded.

Mark
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:35 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:12 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:38 am I don't agree, "If anything is inherent it would mean no change." There is the inherency of Buddha and the Three Truths, including emptiness, no?

M
This is the problem with walling yourself into a Nichiren sandbox - one tends to cut themselves off from the context that Nichiren lived within. You need to study Madhyamaka and Zhiyi to understand why that view is untenable.

Look, with respect, if you want to follow the Nichiren path of faith, then that is what you should stick to. Speculating beyond faith without actually doing the heavy lifting of learning the full context of Lotus Mahayana will lead to this sort of erroneous speculation.

Its basic Mahayana to point out that to assert anything as inherent, even emptiness, precludes change. Emptiness simply is the case; to suggest it is inherent introduces an abstraction that is unfounded and unnecessary.
From SGI dictionary: The unification of the Three Truths... A principle expounded by T’ien-t’ai on the basis of the Lotus Sutra, explaining the three truths of non-substantiality, temporary existence, and the Middle Way as an integral whole, each of the three possessing all three within itself. It teaches that these three are inseparable phases of all phenomena.

Also, the Ten Worlds, if they are not inherent, they are outside the person and that cannot be.

Mark
It is arguably acceptable to describe the 10 worlds as inherent since it is a description of the relative truth.
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:17 am "Ten realms" IMO is an example of what Grandmaster Zhizhe (i.e. "Zhiyi") called "a dharma of enumeration." The number is irrelevant. There is "one world" as much as there are "ten." I can give a citation for this in a bit, but give me time.
Yes, but I wouldn't say the number is irrelevant. A dharma of enumeration still carries significance. I believe the main intent of that doctrine is for us to avoid fighting over the various upaya that might seem to be incompatible or in competition. Samatha and Vipashyana should not be asserted to diminish or contradict the 4 dhyana, for instance. Each has its particular meaning; each teaching is taught in response to the needs of sentient beings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:11 am[...] I wouldn't say the number is irrelevant. A dharma of enumeration still carries significance.
The Master chose ten for a reason, certainly, but not because there was an intrinsic "10ness" to the Buddhist cosmos. The phrase "dharma of enumeration" comes from Venerable Dharmamitra's translation of the "Six Saddharma Gates." After going through other enumerations, the Master settles on six and explains that it is a (mere) enumeration, if I remember correctly. I've not yet had a chance to check.

In the Dharma, we can speak of ten realms, or we can speak of three (kāmadhātu, rūpadhātu, arūpyadhātu). We can speak of six realms. We can speak of thirty-one realms. We can speak of one realm. Furthermore, we can speak of "no realm" and we can speak of "infinite realms" when we include each sentient being as "a realm." Ten is simply a pedagogical tool IMO.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:06 am
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:52 pm

Lil harsh I'd say.
People can live without understanding emptiness.
Simply true. One does not need to know emptiness to live. However, if one wants to speculate about its significance, it helps to actually understand what it is. I've long criticized Mark about his approach - he undertakes Shakubuku without the necessary learning to inform it. He has a tendency to merely echo critiques from the 13th c. Japan out of context in the present. It simply doesn't work. Its like a telemarketer working off a script trying to talk to a live person. There is no actual interaction - just repetition of what is written down as a response to a person who has been dead for centuries.
Also lets take the time to ask this.
Why did Nichiren leave TenDai?
1. Like others of his time, he estimated that the training required in Tendai is not accessible by most people. He was a creature of the debates of his time which critiqued the institutional Buddhism of his time and sought a popular form that could be accessible by all. The same pressures produced Honen and Shinran and other Pure Land thinkers. Nichiren adopted Honen's rationale but made the Lotus Sutra the focus of his popular teachings and practice.

2. He disagreed with the integration of Vajrayana methods with Tendai theory. But, his critique is more nuanced than a simple rejection. His students continued to study at Mt. Hiei, the center of Japanese Tendai, during and after his lifetime. And his teachings and practice exhibit significant Vajrayana influences.
The culture of controlling the populace.
In Christianity people are told of their reward in heaven . The simplicity of the way to their heaven is ridiculous. It's a weird control thing, when you think the jews actually know we reincarnate. Promise the peasantry a reward of eternal happiness in an afterlife and forgot about the misery placed upon here on earth.
This is what Nichiren was about .
But yeah I don't get the real reasons for leaving TenDai. I think a lot of what Nichiren really knew at the time is lost on people from a lack of the written word. It's 2022 and well, we are free to say what we want. One might be suppressed in certain areas but at least we don't get burned at the stake.
Note - we are coming to Nichiren's 800th birthday on Feb. 16, 2022.

I think you might be too influenced by European history in comparing Tendai to the Roman Catholic Church of the time. If anything, Nichiren's critique of Tendai institutions was that they were not doing enough to help ordinary people and were instead out of touch on the mountain. He was actually a "royalist" in that he favored the order under the Emperor rather than the de facto sovereignty of the Kamakura Shogun.
Nichiren never stated only the most learned could perform the forceful practices.
Actually, he did. Ordinary lay people should support the monks who in turn practice shakubuku.

I'm not going to find the references. I have no skin in your game.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 am
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:11 am[...] I wouldn't say the number is irrelevant. A dharma of enumeration still carries significance.
The Master chose ten for a reason, certainly, but not because there was an intrinsic "10ness" to the Buddhist cosmos. The phrase "dharma of enumeration" comes from Venerable Dharmamitra's translation of the "Six Saddharma Gates." After going through other enumerations, the Master settles on six and explains that it is a (mere) enumeration, if I remember correctly. I've not yet had a chance to check.

In the Dharma, we can speak of ten realms, or we can speak of three (kāmadhātu, rūpadhātu, arūpyadhātu). We can speak of six realms. We can speak of thirty-one realms. We can speak of one realm. Furthermore, we can speak of "no realm" and we can speak of "infinite realms" when we include each sentient being as "a realm." Ten is simply a pedagogical tool IMO.
I can see exactly what you are talking about.I once wrote here at DW that the whole Ichinen sanzen thing was childish. I think you articulated that point and took it from sounding like just a knock to it's course in our evolution of buddhist study.

Also I think that Nichiren was in a conundrum where he could not speak out to the full extent of why he left TenDai, and created almost an entirely different philosophy and process.They tried to kill him and he got exiled and stuff for a reason that might be lost on QQ. Or is just been hidden through time, allowed to be politicized by cowards.

It's like there was only so much accepted wrong theory that Nichiren could not talk about. I say this because I look at Nichiren and Buddhas as products of the wisdom innate in the universe. Like an immune system in an organism. Also I think it is about evolution. when you look at our planet's evolution and then think in terms of the big bangs. It's like each Big Bang learned from the previous one and produces a more evolved happening. Look at the human cell and it's organelles and see the wonder. Teeny tiny perfect structures doing amazing jobs .From my point of of view how many infinite big bangs ago did this have it's infancy and produced far more primitive life forms that never evolved to our point.

If we don't evolve it's like counter productive. Same with buddhist study ,and understanding, producing different ways of teaching it.

Our freedom of speech would be a miracle to Nichiren. America is also part of my evolutionary way of looking at the universe. What happened with the forfathers , for me is nothing more than a product of the universe itself. So it was inevitable for the human race. An innate property of the universe like gravity. And now look at the world those guys are responsible for. Or was it those guys? Were they not just tools of the universe , inspired thought?
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Caoimhghín
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

Minobu wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:34 pmAlso I think that Nichiren was in a conundrum where he could not speak out to the full extent of why he left TenDai, and created almost an entirely different philosophy and process. They tried to kill him and he got exiled and stuff for a reason that might be lost on QQ.
I suspect that the Daishōnin entertained an esoteric Buddhology concerning the superiority of Śākyamuni over Vairocana. Another figure who started a breakaway sect, breaking away from Tendai specifically, is Shinran, who held or came to hold an esoteric Buddhology that replaced Vairocana as a figure with Amitāyur. Amitāyur as Dharmakāya (Jōdo Shinshū), Śākyamuni as Dharmakāya (Nichiren Shū), and Vairocana as Dharmakāya (Tendai Shū). Later we add "Nichiren as Dharmakāya" (Nichiren Shōshū). I think that likely, based on the contents of his writings, the Daishōnin believed that having any figure as "True Buddha" other than Śākyamuni of the Lifespan Exegesis was reprehensible "idolatry." Even the Tendai identification of "Śākyamuni as Vairocana" seems to have been unacceptable to him. I suspect that he either left or was "encouraged forcefully" to leave because of this esoteric Buddhology and accusations of idolatry towards the main sect, Tendai Shū, on his part. That being said, I don't have evidence of the exact reason, just suspicions. It's also possible that the Daishōnin initially tried to adapt his thought to the old orthodoxy, but eventually things got to a breaking point.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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