I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:51 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:34 pmAlso I think that Nichiren was in a conundrum where he could not speak out to the full extent of why he left TenDai, and created almost an entirely different philosophy and process. They tried to kill him and he got exiled and stuff for a reason that might be lost on QQ.
I suspect that the Daishōnin entertained an esoteric Buddhology concerning the superiority of Śākyamuni over Vairocana. Another figure who started a breakaway sect, breaking away from Tendai specifically, is Shinran, who held or came to hold an esoteric Buddhology that replaced Vairocana as a figure with Amitāyur. Amitāyur as Dharmakāya (Jōdo Shinshū), Śākyamuni as Dharmakāya (Nichiren Shū), and Vairocana as Dharmakāya (Tendai Shū). Later we add "Nichiren as Dharmakāya" (Nichiren Shōshū). I think that likely, based on the contents of his writings, the Daishōnin believed that having any figure as "True Buddha" other than Śākyamuni of the Lifespan Exegesis was reprehensible "idolatry." Even the Tendai identification of "Śākyamuni as Vairocana" seems to have been unacceptable to him. I suspect that he either left or was "encouraged forcefully" to leave because of this esoteric Buddhology and accusations of idolatry towards the main sect, Tendai Shū, on his part. That being said, I don't have evidence of the exact reason, just suspicions. It's also possible that the Daishōnin initially tried to adapt his thought to the old orthodoxy, but eventually things got to a breaking point.
Thank you for this.
Last edited by Minobu on Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:34 pm Also I think that Nichiren was in a conundrum where he could not speak out to the full extent of why he left TenDai, and created almost an entirely different philosophy and process.
You really think Nichiren held something back? Have you actually read his letters? He most certainly did create a new form of Buddhism. The nature of it is very interesting, but I don't think in the ways you think he departed from others.
They tried to kill him and he got exiled and stuff for a reason that might be lost on QQ. Or is just been hidden through time, allowed to be politicized by cowards.
Its pretty clear why people wanted to kill him. He was standing on street corners and telling people they were going to burn in hell for worshiping the wrong buddha. He was blaming everyone who didn't agree with him for the earthquakes, famines, droughts, plagues, civil war, Mongol invasions. He was contributing to the political instability in Kamakura while they were trying to prepare for the Mongol invasion. They didn't kill him - that would have been very, very, very bad karma to kill a monk, even though some people were ready to go rogue and do it. They did, however, exile him, in hopes he might not survive, but more immediately, to remove him from the day to day life of Kamakura where he was contributing to the stirring shit storm.
It's like there was only so much accepted wrong theory that Nichiren could not talk about. I say this because I look at Nichiren and Buddhas as products of the wisdom innate in the universe. Like an immune system in an organism. Also I think it is about evolution. when you look at our planet's evolution and then think in terms of the big bangs. It's like each Big Bang learned from the previous one and produces a more evolved happening. Look at the human cell and it's organelles and see the wonder. Teeny tiny perfect structures doing amazing jobs .From my point of of view how many infinite big bangs ago did this have it's infancy and produced far more primitive life forms that never evolved to our point.

If we don't evolve it's like counter productive. Same with buddhist study ,and understanding, producing different ways of teaching it.

Our freedom of speech would be a miracle to Nichiren. America is also part of my evolutionary way of looking at the universe. What happened with the forfathers , for me is nothing more than a product of the universe itself. So it was inevitable for the human race. An innate property of the universe like gravity. And now look at the world those guys are responsible for. Or was it those guys? Were they not just tools of the universe , inspired thought?
A hippie friend of mine tried to convince me that Trump is part of some grand functioning of the universe that will ultimately bring harmony.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:51 pm I suspect that he either left or was "encouraged forcefully" to leave because of this esoteric Buddhology and accusations of idolatry towards the main sect, Tendai Shū, on his part. That being said, I don't have evidence of the exact reason, just suspicions. It's also possible that the Daishōnin initially tried to adapt his thought to the old orthodoxy, but eventually things got to a breaking point.
I think its an error to think that there was some sort of monolithic Tendai-shu body of doctrine that Nichiren could have forcefully opposed. There were a lot of people on the mountain at the time, thinking all kinds of different things. Moreover, I don't think Tendai had an organized corporate governance that would have policed Nichiren's association with Tendai, and if they did, its fanciful to think they'd have paid much attention to him. The evidence suggests he was not an official student with any of the established factions on Mt. Hiei, but was likely one of the sort of general students with no particular associations. He was there, he was likely using the libraries, maybe "auditing" teachings, but there was nothing to kick him out of. There is in fact some reason to believe he had sympathetic people within Tendai as well as in the Imperial patronage system - likely the people who stopped his execution.

I think that is fair to say that earlier in his public career he was a Tendai reformer of sorts, though certainly making a break with his single practice approach (though I don't think this is what would have alienated him from Tendai). Later, he became more and more convinced of his own personal mission. When people get in their heads that they are specially on a mission of universal import... things can get interesting.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:00 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:51 pm I suspect that he either left or was "encouraged forcefully" to leave because of this esoteric Buddhology and accusations of idolatry towards the main sect, Tendai Shū, on his part. That being said, I don't have evidence of the exact reason, just suspicions. It's also possible that the Daishōnin initially tried to adapt his thought to the old orthodoxy, but eventually things got to a breaking point.
I think its an error to think that there was some sort of monolithic Tendai-shu body of doctrine that Nichiren could have forcefully opposed.
Certainly, Tendai nowadays has a diversity of opinions. Tendai then was likely the same. However, all that is required for a diversity to act in a manner similar to a monolith is a universal condemnation of the diversity as a whole, by an agent such as the Daishōnin. In his extant writings, the Daishōnin condemns the entirety of the Tendai sect of his time. Likely he was doing the same out-loud as he was doing in writing. All it takes is for the patience of a few in power to wear thin and then we have punitive measures advocated for (such as exile, etc.).
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:37 pm
A hippie friend of mine tried to convince me that Trump is part of some grand functioning of the universe that will ultimately bring harmony.
That must have been some pretty strong weed.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Neo-Nazi ideologues also think that "the day of the rope" will ultimately bring harmony. Your hippie friend isn't necessarily a Nazi, but the comparison remains, which I imagine you were getting at. Hosts of Christians think that the day of judgement wherein sinners are cast into the flame will ultimately bring harmony too.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:08 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:00 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:51 pm I suspect that he either left or was "encouraged forcefully" to leave because of this esoteric Buddhology and accusations of idolatry towards the main sect, Tendai Shū, on his part. That being said, I don't have evidence of the exact reason, just suspicions. It's also possible that the Daishōnin initially tried to adapt his thought to the old orthodoxy, but eventually things got to a breaking point.
I think its an error to think that there was some sort of monolithic Tendai-shu body of doctrine that Nichiren could have forcefully opposed.
Certainly, Tendai nowadays has a diversity of opinions. Tendai then was likely the same. However, all that is required for a diversity to act in a manner similar to a monolith is a universal condemnation of the diversity as a whole, by an agent such as the Daishōnin. In his extant writings, the Daishōnin condemns the entirety of the Tendai sect of his time. Likely he was doing the same out-loud as he was doing in writing. All it takes is for the patience of a few in power to wear thin and then we have punitive measures advocated for (such as exile, etc.).
Overblown. His students continued to study at Hiei throughout his life and after his death. And again, there's no evidence that anyone in the Tendai establishment had it out for him. Most probably didn't even know he existed. Fact is, Tendai continued to be taught to his students when he retired to Mt. Minobu. We can say with some certainty that he rejected the equality of Shakyamuni and Vairocana, which is really to say, he rejected the idea that esoteric and exoteric were equal.

Pure Landers and Zennies in Kamakura on the other hand definitely had it out for him.
Last edited by Queequeg on Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:26 pm Neo-Nazi ideologues also think that "the day of the rope" will ultimately bring harmony. Your hippie friend isn't necessarily a Nazi, but the comparison remains, which I imagine you were getting at. Hosts of Christians think that the day of judgement wherein sinners are cast into the flame will ultimately bring harmony too.
I think any speculation about any particular actors being part of some grand play in the harmony of the universe, the arc of history bending to justice, and such, is silly. I'm much more of a Darwinist - adaptations that survive survive; the ones that don't go extinct, and history is written by the survivors for the survivors; from that vantage, of course things seem ordained. That doesn't mean the good guys win, unfortunately.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

Out of curiosity, did they publicly study at Mt. Hiei as acolytes of Nichiren or was this somewhat on the downlow? It's hard to imagine amicable relations between the Daishōnin and Hieisan, given his polemics against their teaching (he seems to all but frame them as apostates against the words of Tendai Daishi). It is also hard to imagine him being so radicalized against them if there was no pushback against his new teaching from them. Nonetheless, these are all just exercises in imagination.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:45 pm Out of curiosity, did they publicly study at Mt. Hiei as acolytes of Nichiren or was this somewhat on the downlow? It's hard to imagine amicable relations between the Daishōnin and Hieisan, given his polemics against their teaching (he seems to all but frame them as apostates against the words of Tendai Daishi). It is also hard to imagine him being so radicalized against them if there was no pushback against his new teaching from them. Nonetheless, these are all just exercises in imagination.
I don't think Nichiren IRL was anything like the Nichiren we have the impression of now. He wasn't so famous, for one. And I don't think Enryakuji was anything like what we know it to be now. My understanding is that it was a sprawling complex with tens of thousands of monks, with no particular organization. If you were an actual student in a faction, there was perhaps more structure, but these were people from Kyoto with aristocratic connections. Also, all these writings we know Nichiren by - they were handwritten, hand copied. Its not like they were posted on a public blog or even printed and disseminated. Most people on Hiei would have been like, "Who? Nichiren? Who's that?" I think it took a while for a distinctly Nichiren identity to emerge, even as I think he was reaching toward that during his life - declaring himself to be a monk with no precepts or particular school. It required his writings to get copied, compiled and studied over the next few centuries.

I don't think the Tendai/Nichiren antagonism took shape until later when Nichirenism spread among merchants in Kyoto and Nichirenism became the standard under which they fought against the aristocrats (Tendai) and the farmers (Jodo).
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/208

This is a letter from Nichiren to one of his disciples who was studying at Mt. Hiei. He is instructing on how to present his teachings to others there.

The thrust of his critique is that the monks there are mixing exoteric and esoteric teachings and too tolerant and failing because they do not take the Lotus Sutra exclusively.

I think, however, it reflects that the monks on Hiei had little if any idea who Nichiren was.

There's some amusing scolding going on - apparently this disciple went to the capital and tried to be someone he wasn't. Like a father teasing their son for reinventing themselves at college.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Caoimhghín »

From that letter:
And then, as is well known, the prayers conducted by the eminent priests of our time, men of the True Word and Tendai schools, do not produce favorable results. I have pointed this out many times in the past.
I do not think that the imperial priests in charge of the rituals to ward off great storms, earthquakes, famines, and enemy armies, would take kindly to this sort of speech, even if it were to come from someone perceived as a rural nobody. Even peasants were hung and executed for treasonous statements against the Imperial regime, even if the treason was merely imagined. It's possible that nothing was done in reaction to inflammatory remarks like this. It is possible that plenty was done, and even more was attempted. It's possible that he kept tight lips about this in person and never said as much out loud (and that these sorts of remarks only come out in his confidential writings), but I think that seems unlikely. He strikes me as someone who would not be quiet, even if censored. Furthermore, just after this, he says "I have pointed this out many times in the past." When? Where? In what context? If we pointed it out in front of the wrong official, that the sect that the imperial family was patronizing was essentially phony and could not do what it said it could do, that could be seen as very subversive. Maybe it's all limited to private correspondences, but once again that seems unlikely. "I stated my opinion that such ceremonies would be unsuccessful, which so angered the participants that they threatened me, but of course all their efforts proved fruitless."

This part I'm missing context on:

"Mount Hiei wiped out the correct teaching, and therefore the great heavenly devil appeared in Japan and took possession of persons such as Hōnen and Dainichi. He then used these persons as a stepping stone, thereby entering the bodies of the ruler and his ministers, and from there taking possession of all the three thousand priests of Mount Hiei."

Surely he's not suggesting that the emperor of Japan was possessed? That would be beyond the pale as a statement to make in medieval Japan. He also specifies "all three-thousand priests of Mt. Hiei," which is likely a condemnation of the entirety of the Tendai sect there.

As a last point, the Daishonin himself links his persecution to the contents of his speech: "...because I delivered my doctrinal pronouncements on these matters, I was driven from place to place twenty and more times and in the end was condemned to exile. I suffered numerous bodily injuries and many of my disciples were killed."
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:37 pm Zennies in Kamakura on the other hand definitely had it out for him.
Unlikely. Zen Buddhism, during Nichiren's life was fledgling. When Nichiren was 3, Dogen was 25, and Eisai, the master who brought Rinzai to Kakakura had been dead for 15 years.

Anyway, it is pretty clear that the Zen that got Nichiren's back up was the Daruma school, but that had already been banned by 1194 becasue Eisai, recently returned from studying Chan in China, requested the Tendau school to shut Nonin down.

Both Eisai and Dogen met with a lot of resistance from the Tendai school over their versions of Zen, with Dogen eventually fleeing Kyoto politics to the mountains outside present day Fukui City in western Japan in 1243, where he built Eiheiji.

The Pure Land school was much more immediately popular than Zen during the 13th century. The hegemony of Zen in Japanese Buddhism took considerable time to develop.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:37 pm Zennies in Kamakura on the other hand definitely had it out for him.
Unlikely. Zen Buddhism, during Nichiren's life was fledgling. When Nichiren was 3, Dogen was 25, and Eisai, the master who brought Rinzai to Kakakura had been dead for 15 years.

Anyway, it is pretty clear that the Zen that got Nichiren's back up was the Daruma school, but that had already been banned by 1194 becasue Eisai, recently returned from studying Chan in China, requested the Tendau school to shut Nonin down.

Both Eisai and Dogen met with a lot of resistance from the Tendai school over their versions of Zen, with Dogen eventually fleeing Kyoto politics to the mountains outside present day Fukui City in western Japan in 1243, where he built Eiheiji.

The Pure Land school was much more immediately popular than Zen during the 13th century. The hegemony of Zen in Japanese Buddhism took considerable time to develop.
Mmmm. Many in the Kamakura government were zen practitioners and supporters. For proof, several of the 5 famous zen temples in Kamakura were started during or shortly after Nichiren's lifetime by Hojo Tokimune or others in the Shogunate. I'm not sure if any of these were founded in association with any Zen schools that we know of today. Zen might not have been popular in general, but it was popular with the Kamakura samurai Nichiren was dealing with.

More generally, Zen has never been a popular sect - I suppose Soto flourished in the Edo period - but its popularity has never matched Pure Land or Nichiren levels of support. It has however enjoyed the support of samurai and other powerful aristocrats since the Kamakura period. To have power and influence, all you need is the ear of a powerful person or two. Nichiren remarks on some of his run-ins with Kamakura zen teachers.

Pure Land is another phenomena entirely. There was Honen, whom Nichiren criticized. Nichiren does not seem to have been aware of Shinran. Or Dogen for that matter, IIRC. Which goes along with my remark earlier - just as the Nichiren we know now is not the same as the Nichiren who lived in the 13 c. Neither were Dogen or Shinran. These people became giants in the centuries after their death. But back to Pure Land - Pure Land was a widespread, popular, cross-sectarian movement. Shingon had its uneasy relation with a Pure Land movement; Genshin, who appeared in the 11th c. was a Tendai scholar; and a host of popular Pure Land advocates who didn't necessarily follow Honen's ideas were all over.

Another remark, though many of Nichiren's positions are novel, I'm not sure they came out of nowhere. His critiques of Honen resonate with the critiques that Honen had received from mainstream Tendai. I'm sure his critiques of zen likewise find resonance with the mainstream Tendai critiques of Dogen and Eisai.

Anyway, I get the sense that a lot of Japanese Buddhist history is based on more modern sectarian scholarship. This tends to put all sorts of spins on history.
Last edited by Queequeg on Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:42 pm From that letter:
And then, as is well known, the prayers conducted by the eminent priests of our time, men of the True Word and Tendai schools, do not produce favorable results. I have pointed this out many times in the past.
I do not think that the imperial priests in charge of the rituals to ward off great storms, earthquakes, famines, and enemy armies, would take kindly to this sort of speech, even if it were to come from someone perceived as a rural nobody. Even peasants were hung and executed for treasonous statements against the Imperial regime, even if the treason was merely imagined. It's possible that nothing was done in reaction to inflammatory remarks like this. It is possible that plenty was done, and even more was attempted. It's possible that he kept tight lips about this in person and never said as much out loud (and that these sorts of remarks only come out in his confidential writings), but I think that seems unlikely. He strikes me as someone who would not be quiet, even if censored. Furthermore, just after this, he says "I have pointed this out many times in the past." When? Where? In what context? If we pointed it out in front of the wrong official, that the sect that the imperial family was patronizing was essentially phony and could not do what it said it could do, that could be seen as very subversive. Maybe it's all limited to private correspondences, but once again that seems unlikely. "I stated my opinion that such ceremonies would be unsuccessful, which so angered the participants that they threatened me, but of course all their efforts proved fruitless."

This part I'm missing context on:

"Mount Hiei wiped out the correct teaching, and therefore the great heavenly devil appeared in Japan and took possession of persons such as Hōnen and Dainichi. He then used these persons as a stepping stone, thereby entering the bodies of the ruler and his ministers, and from there taking possession of all the three thousand priests of Mount Hiei."

Surely he's not suggesting that the emperor of Japan was possessed? That would be beyond the pale as a statement to make in medieval Japan. He also specifies "all three-thousand priests of Mt. Hiei," which is likely a condemnation of the entirety of the Tendai sect there.

As a last point, the Daishonin himself links his persecution to the contents of his speech: "...because I delivered my doctrinal pronouncements on these matters, I was driven from place to place twenty and more times and in the end was condemned to exile. I suffered numerous bodily injuries and many of my disciples were killed."
Eh. You have to take Nichiren's descriptions of himself with a bit of salt. There's no record of him outside of his own writings. I'm not saying he was nobody - he was apparently a prominent personality in Kamakura. Kyoto, though was a long ways away, and a world away.

The people who wanted to kill him were Pure Landers. This is well known. The guy who tried to execute him was a Pure Lander. The people who attacked him and killed some of his companions at Matsubagayatsu were Pure Landers. The people who burned down his dwelling were Pure Landers. Etc. etc. There is some indication that his followers who were killed in Atsuhara were partly persecuted because of some tensions due to some of his disciples winning a Tendai temple through debate, but again - this was in the Fuji area - some distance from Kamakura, and just as remote from Kyoto.

Also, Nichiren was an Imperialist - he wanted to see sovereignty in the Emperor. There's also evidence he was by family in some sort of vassal relationship with the Imperial house. And critically, he was saved from execution by a representative of the Emperor.

There's simply no evidence of any particular hostility directed at Nichiren from Tendai. Maybe if they were aware of him they might have been hostile, but I think Nichiren was biggest in his own mind and it was reflected in his writings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:42 pm This part I'm missing context on:

"Mount Hiei wiped out the correct teaching, and therefore the great heavenly devil appeared in Japan and took possession of persons such as Hōnen and Dainichi. He then used these persons as a stepping stone, thereby entering the bodies of the ruler and his ministers, and from there taking possession of all the three thousand priests of Mount Hiei."

Surely he's not suggesting that the emperor of Japan was possessed? That would be beyond the pale as a statement to make in medieval Japan. He also specifies "all three-thousand priests of Mt. Hiei," which is likely a condemnation of the entirety of the Tendai sect there.

As a last point, the Daishonin himself links his persecution to the contents of his speech: "...because I delivered my doctrinal pronouncements on these matters, I was driven from place to place twenty and more times and in the end was condemned to exile. I suffered numerous bodily injuries and many of my disciples were killed."
I'm not sure, but he probably is meaning what he writes there.

And again, its stuff like this that tells me he wasn't getting heard as well as you think. And, also, he had some supporters with significant pull himself who protected him in political circles.

There's the Nichiren that Nichiren liked to tell the world about. There's the Nichiren of legends. There's Nichiren, the savvy political operator. There's the Nichiren who wrote checks he couldn't cash, too.

He was a very interesting and complex guy for sure.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:59 pm
More generally, Zen has never been a popular sect -
The Soto School is the largest single Buddhist institution in Japan, with 14,000 temples. There are are larger denominations—pure land is the largest, with 8 million followers, but it is split into ten different bodies, with Nishi Honganji being the largest, with 10,000 temples.

Despite the popularity of Zen in Kamakura and Hōjō Tokiyori‘s support for it, Zen in Kamakura itself was still small potatoes, and confined to the literate elite. It was the “it” Buddhism of the day, since it was the latest Import from China. When Tokiyori ordained in 1256, Nichiren would had been 34. And had himself barely arrived in Kamakura. It would be six years more before Nichiren forwarded his Risshō Ankoku Ron to Tokiyori, who had by then ordained and left the government in the hands of Hōjō Nagatoki. The person most instrumental in spreading Zen in the Kamakura era was Hōjō Tokimune. It was he who banished Nichiren to Sado Island. Tokimune’s teacher was the Chinese monk, Mugaku Sogen. However, Mugaku did not arrive until 1279.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Painting Nichiren as some kind of loon boon yelling in the streets might be a fun bit of character assassination .

Lets not forget who was really at his side. He had the ear of some nobility. He had the protection of a god on a beach one night. His ideas were probably only really held to account by people who also knew what he knew about what had become of Buddhism in Japan.
And if one believes in buddhism they can see the modern results and the gist of his philosophy.

I think it is from Buddha and protected by the gods.

I find it interesting and a great learning experience to see QQ so hell bent on presenting the man in this way. a man who only wanted the common peasant to have the means to creating absolute positive fortune for themselves and future lives.

you can't knock the actual theory and practice so you defame the man with your historic take on the matter QQ.
Thank you for allowing to see your ideas .
Last edited by Minobu on Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:13 am Painting Nichiren as some kind of loon boon yelling in the streets might be a fun bit of character assassination .

Lets not forget who was really at his side. He had the ear of some nobility. He had the protection of a god on a beach one night. His ideas were probably only really held to account by people who also knew what he knew about what had become of Buddhism in Japan.
And if one believes in buddhism they can see the modern results and the gist of his philosophy.

I think it is from Buddha and protected by the gods.

I find it interesting and a great learning experience to see QQ so hell bent on presenting the man in this way. a man who only wanted the common peasant to have the means to creating absolute positive fortune for themselves and future lives.

you can't knock the actual theory and practice so you defame the man with your historic take on the matter QQ.
Thank you for allowing to see your ideas .
Not a loon. He did get caught in a trap of his own making by tying prophecies about the certain demise of Japan at the hands of the Mongols so intimately to his teachings. The fact that the gods were credited with wiping out the Mongols, twice, by unseasonable storms (kamikaze), really undermined him. When he retired to Minobu, I get the sense he realized his error and refocused on the fundamental tenets of his teaching, which is sound and efficacious.

His thesis in Rissho Ankoku Ron is basically this: If you are ignorant of the True Aspect of Reality, you will be trapped in a perpetual cycle of suffering; if you willfully disregard the True Aspect of Reality, the retribution will be profoundly worse. However, by turning to and committing to the realization of the True Aspect of Reality, one will quickly advance to bodhi and the land and society will be blessed with peace and prosperity.

The rest of his teachings are about orienting and committing to the True Aspect of Reality which he distilled into the Daimoku - as the Reality, Teaching, and Practice (the Three Great Secret Laws). He emphasized the cultivation of the moment of Faith, the moment when a sentient sentient being first turns toward bodhi. By chanting NMRK, one can deeply mark their mind with the inclination toward bodhi.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

We are getting away from the original question by sanshoshima, I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Maybe you are perplexed because many principles in the Ongi Kuden are antithetical to the teachings of Nichiren. First, let us see what the foremost American Nichiren scholar and practitioner says in the “Some Disputed Writings in the Nichiren Corpus” by Doctor Jacqeuline Stone


1).The Ongi Kuden is not in Nikko’s hand nor is it ever mentioned (“again”) by him. There is no authentic seal of Nichiren (colophon) except for a later legendary accretion referencing a serpent who was to have appeared to Nichiren and Nikko as he was lecturing on the Devedatta Chapter.
2). It is supposed to be based on the Chu Hokkekyo, the authentic Annotated Lotus Sutra of Nichiren, the original copy exists on Mt. Minobu. The problem is it doesn’t conform well to it. Only 23 passages of the 133 passages from the Chu Hokekyo appear in the Ongi Kuden.
3). No mention of the Ongi Kuden or the Ongi Kikagaki occurs before Nitcho’s Keiun Sho in 1503. These were competing texts used by opposing sides in the Nichiren ichi-shoretsu debates (the harmony of the 28 chapters of the Lotus Sutra versus the superiority of the essential teachings debate), held at this time. “Dueling Oral Teachings”
4). The Ongi Kuden mirrors the writings of the Tendai sect. They employ the Tendai sect formulations of Kanjin style interpretations of “progression” and “resemblance and reversal” to represent concepts found commonly in Chuko Tendai (original enlightenment) doctrine. These conflict with the authenticated writings of Nichiren, most notably, the Kanjin Honzon Sho, as seen above.
5). The text contains comments regarding events that did not exist at the time of the supposed lectures:
A). For example the Ongi Kuden refers to the “six senior disciples” but Nichiren did not designate these six senior disciples until a few days before his death, some years later
B). According to scholars and priests of the orthodox sects, it refers to Nichiren as the “eminent founder,” a term which did not come into usage until well after Nichiren and Nikko died.
C). The text of the Ongi Kuden also refers to a document which was written some 13 years after Nichiren’s death, the “K’o-chu” which is a Yuan-dynasty commentary on the Lotus Sutra by Hsu Hsing-shan dated Yuan-chen 1 (1295).
D). Finally the date it was supposedly approved by Nichiren (who then affixed his seal), is the first month of the first year of Koan but the era changed its name from Kenji to Koan on the 29th day of the second month. There was no first month of Koan.
E). Additionally during the time the lectures supposedly took place and Nikko was supposedly transcribing them, he was not at Minobu where the lectures were held. He was in the Fuji area on a shakabuku campaign.
6). John Petry wrote: “The Nichiren Shoshu has pointed to a reference in another writing in a text by a Fuji school priest in the 1600′s referencing the existence of a transcript of lectures given by Nichiren in his life time but there is nothing in that reference to indicate what document he is referring to or even whether it was simply a copy of the Ongi Kuden or the Onko Kikigaki which were known to exist at right around 1500.”
7). Nichiren disparaged oral teachings. Since the core Taisekaji doctrines can not be found in the authentic Gosho, the Oral Teachings as well as many forged Gosho were invented by them.

Here a few of the hundreds of examples how the Ongi Kuden differs from the Five Major Writings and the entire corpus of authentic (in Nichiren's Hand) texts

In the Ongi Kuden we read:

“This Myoho-renge-kyo (Lotus Sutra) is not Shakyamuni’s Mystic Law, because at the time this chapter was preached, he had already entrusted it to Bodhisattva Jogyo.” (Gosho, p. 1783)

In the Kanjin Honzon Sho (The True Object of Worship), the most important writing of Nichiren Daishonin, we read,

“Having thus manifested the ten divine powers, Sakyamuni Buddha transmitted the five charecters of Myo, Ho, Ren, Ge, and Kyo to the original disciples since the eternal past, who had sprung up from under ground.” Kanjin Honzon Sho, pp 122 to 140, NOPPA 1991.

and in the Lotus Sutra we read:

“At that time the Buddha spoke to Superior Practices and the others in the great assembly of bodhisattvas, saying: “The supernatural powers of the Buddhas, as you have seen, are immeasurable, boundless, inconceivable. If in the process of entrusting this sutra (Myoho renge kyo) to others I were to employ these supernatural powers for a measurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of asamkhya kalpas to describe the benefits of the sutra, I could never finish doing so. To put it briefly, all the doctrines possessed by the Thus Come One, the storehouse of all the secret essentials of the Thus Come One – all these are proclaimed, revealed, and clearly expounded in this sutra.”(Myoho renge kyo, Lotus Sutra Chapter 21)

In the Ongi Kuden, it is said that "I" in Chapter 16 (since "I" attained Buddhahood) refers to the disciples and believers of Nichiren rather than to Shakyamuni Buddha and it infers that this is from the viewpoint of the specific and merely generally to Shakyamuni Buddha. Nichiren, on the other hand, is clear that "I" here refers specifically to Shakyamuni Buddha and says nothing at all about us in that vein except in the forged letters such as The True Aspect of All Phenomena.
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