I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

sanshoshima
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I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
markatex
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by markatex »

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?
I don't think so. I think he's talking about the arhat ideal vs. the bodhisattva ideal. Also, the Ongi Kuden may or may not have actually been taught by Nichiren. This particular passage seems to strongly favor hongaku (original enlightenment) teachings, which Nichiren generally steered clear of. I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
There is a lot of unspoken background to those statements.

I'll try to explain as simply as possible. You'll have to forgive me that I'm not going to give you footnotes or citations.

In Hinayana teachings, the aim of the path is to break the cycle of birth and death in the 12 linked chain between feeling and craving. By ending craving, karma stops and eventually residual karma plays out until there is cessation, ie. nirvana.

In so called Provisional Mahayana, one does not seek to immediately break the cycle of birth and death but rather commits to the long, arduous path of the bodhisattva culminating in unsurpassed awakening as a buddha who turns the wheel of dharma for the first time in memory in a world - as Shakyamuni did in this Saha world.

In True Mahayana, one has insight that dharmas never arise in the first place, so they do not abide or disintegrate either. One understands that the difference between samsara and nirvana is merely delusion and non-delusion, respectively.

To speak of life and death, and the illusoriness of life and death, is to utilize provisional concepts. From the ultimate view, life and death are not intelligible except as conventions.

If you are approaching this question from a Nichiren perspective, you might find it helpful to look at Tiantai/Tendai materials, specifically, the Four Teachings, Four Methods, Five Flavors/Periods. That will frame your approach to Madhyamaka teachings (Mulamadhyamakakarika, for instance, and the Dazhitulun), Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita, Vaipulya Sutras, especiallyt those that have to do with tathagatagarbha, and the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

In the meantime, here's a little taste of where this view comes from:

The Heart Sutra

Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva
when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita
perceives that all five skandhas are empty
and is saved from all suffering and distress.
Shariputra,
form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness form.
The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
Shariputra,
all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
they do not appear or disappear,
are not tainted or pure,
do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
no object of mind;
no realm of eyes
and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness.
No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of them.
No suffering, no origination,
no stopping, no path, no cognition,
also no attainment with nothing to attain.
The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita
and the mind is no hindrance;
without any hindrance no fears exist.
Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in Nirvana.
In the three worlds
all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita
and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.
Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great transcendent mantra,
is the great bright mantra,
is the utmost mantra,
is the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering
and is true, not false.
So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra,
proclaim the mantra which says:
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

I think the concept QQ has shown in the sutra is to make samsara more bearable for the Bohdisatva.
On one hand you have all this suffering everywhere. What to do eh?
So we suffer along with other sentients leading them to correct speech action and thought in order for them to overcome the continuation of producing negative Karma.
But the immensity of the suffering realized is less when one realizes the true nature of all things being empty of inherent existence.

It's a great intellectual achievement, but for me...meh..The suffering still exists in a conventual sense and needs to be addressed.

All the intellectual understanding although makes it bearable does not negate that it is happening and being experienced by sentients.

So various teachings to produce positive karma and reduce negative karma appear from Buddhas.

Knowing that it is empty in nature does not lesson the pain when hit by a car.
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Minobu
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

So the problem lies in not realizing that the concept of emptiness pertains to both existence and non existence at the same time.
The danger is becoming too nihilistic and thinking that it's all an illusion totally. Instead of illusion-like.
When Lord Buddha Nagarjuna says no this and no that it's in the ultimate concept. But it does not mean that there is actually nothing .Just that it can't be inherant.

my two cents.

Nichiren saw the danger in this and tried to show us that
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Although the Ongi Kuden is a pious forgery, here I think Nichiren would agree because this is clearly stated in the prose section of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra:

"The Tathagata knows and sees the appearance of the Three Worlds in accordance with reality: there is no Birth-and-Death, whether backsliding or emerging; likewise there is neither existence in the world nor extinction; they are not real; they are not void, they are not thus; they are not different. It is not as the Three Worlds* see the Three Worlds. In such a matter as this the Tathagata sees clearly and is without error."

*Three Worlds...the unenlightened worldlings of the past, present, and future.
illarraza
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:25 pm I think the concept QQ has shown in the sutra is to make samsara more bearable for the Bohdisatva.
On one hand you have all this suffering everywhere. What to do eh?
So we suffer along with other sentients leading them to correct speech action and thought in order for them to overcome the continuation of producing negative Karma.
But the immensity of the suffering realized is less when one realizes the true nature of all things being empty of inherent existence.

It's a great intellectual achievement, but for me...meh..The suffering still exists in a conventual sense and needs to be addressed.

All the intellectual understanding although makes it bearable does not negate that it is happening and being experienced by sentients.

So various teachings to produce positive karma and reduce negative karma appear from Buddhas.

Knowing that it is empty in nature does not lesson the pain when hit by a car.
When people ask me, "How ya doin", I tell them, "better than the world".

Mark
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Queequeg
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
You're only focusing on the realm of Bodhisattva. There are nine other realms, including the most critical one - Buddhahood.

In the correct view, there is neither attachment nor aversion nor even neutrality toward samsara. There is only upaya - liberating technique. To have aversion for samsara is to assume samsara to actually exist. It doesn't. It is dependently arisen from one's ignorance. So is nirvana. In the absence of ignorance, neither samsara nor nirvana exist as anything more than dependently arisen liberating techniques.

You're not going far enough in your analysis. You stopped at the realm of bodhisattvas who act within samsara to liberate beings and you are dismissing the insight bodhisattvas apply in liberating beings - the Buddha wisdom.

I don't know if you realize this, but you're the one coming up with a method to be comfortable with samsara. In your estimation, what is it exactly that Bodhisattvas are doing? Where are they leading beings? Without Buddhahood, bodhisattvas are just conducting beings in a more refined samsara, round and round and round.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am

This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

markatex wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:09 pm
My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?
I don't think so. I think he's talking about the arhat ideal vs. the bodhisattva ideal. Also, the Ongi Kuden may or may not have actually been taught by Nichiren. This particular passage seems to strongly favor hongaku (original enlightenment) teachings, which Nichiren generally steered clear of. I'd take it with a grain of salt.
I may be wrong, but doesn't the concept of original enlightenment come from the Lotus Sutra? The concept of ten worlds and their mutual possession would suggest that our enlightened nature exists inherently as a potential. I know there is another interpretation that we are already enlightened just as we are, but I don't think that view has been suggested in Ongi kuden.
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:14 pm
sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
There is a lot of unspoken background to those statements.

I'll try to explain as simply as possible. You'll have to forgive me that I'm not going to give you footnotes or citations.

In Hinayana teachings, the aim of the path is to break the cycle of birth and death in the 12 linked chain between feeling and craving. By ending craving, karma stops and eventually residual karma plays out until there is cessation, ie. nirvana.

In so called Provisional Mahayana, one does not seek to immediately break the cycle of birth and death but rather commits to the long, arduous path of the bodhisattva culminating in unsurpassed awakening as a buddha who turns the wheel of dharma for the first time in memory in a world - as Shakyamuni did in this Saha world.

In True Mahayana, one has insight that dharmas never arise in the first place, so they do not abide or disintegrate either. One understands that the difference between samsara and nirvana is merely delusion and non-delusion, respectively.

To speak of life and death, and the illusoriness of life and death, is to utilize provisional concepts. From the ultimate view, life and death are not intelligible except as conventions.

If you are approaching this question from a Nichiren perspective, you might find it helpful to look at Tiantai/Tendai materials, specifically, the Four Teachings, Four Methods, Five Flavors/Periods. That will frame your approach to Madhyamaka teachings (Mulamadhyamakakarika, for instance, and the Dazhitulun), Avatamsaka, Prajnaparamita, Vaipulya Sutras, especiallyt those that have to do with tathagatagarbha, and the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

In the meantime, here's a little taste of where this view comes from:

The Heart Sutra

Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva
when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita
perceives that all five skandhas are empty
and is saved from all suffering and distress.
Shariputra,
form does not differ from emptiness,
emptiness does not differ from form.
That which is form is emptiness,
that which is emptiness form.
The same is true of feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
Shariputra,
all dharmas are marked with emptiness;
they do not appear or disappear,
are not tainted or pure,
do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings,
perceptions, impulses, consciousness.
No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind;
no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch,
no object of mind;
no realm of eyes
and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness.
No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of them.
No suffering, no origination,
no stopping, no path, no cognition,
also no attainment with nothing to attain.
The Bodhisattva depends on Prajna Paramita
and the mind is no hindrance;
without any hindrance no fears exist.
Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in Nirvana.
In the three worlds
all Buddhas depend on Prajna Paramita
and attain Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi.
Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great transcendent mantra,
is the great bright mantra,
is the utmost mantra,
is the supreme mantra
which is able to relieve all suffering
and is true, not false.
So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra,
proclaim the mantra which says:
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.
That puts things into context and makes more sense, thank you. Taking the concept of emptiness into account, there really is no birth or death outside of our delusions. My understanding is that both the Hinayana and Mahayana teachings seek to end the cycle of birth and death, but the way in which that is accomplished is different, right? The difference being ending craving vs ending ignorance.

Also, I feel like the Life Span chapter could easily be misinterpreted as advocating for an eternalist view. If you read it without much background knowledge, that is!
Last edited by sanshoshima on Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
sanshoshima
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

illarraza wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:51 am
sanshoshima wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:45 pm http://dharmagateway.org/dharma16.htm

The passage in question:

To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion and a mental outlook of the enlightenment of the historical Shākyamuni in Buddhagāya, which, in this case, entails all the provisional doctrines (shikaku), as opposed to the Buddha enlightenment of the original archetypal state. Having the wisdom to see the cycles of living and dying as they have always existed and will always exist is an innate awakening to what the original archetypal enlightenment implies (hongaku).

I guess my main question is regarding the concept of extinguishment. One of the core concepts of Buddhism is that we must break through the cycle of living and dying by eliminating our ignorance to what existence really is. By eliminating our ignorance we become extinguished and are no longer reborn.

There are several passages in the Lotus Sutra that seem to suggest that this is a provisional teaching, and not the ultimate truth (chapter 7 comes to mind!). But none of the commentaries I've read really addressed this point, until the above quote by Nichiren. Nichiren does seem to confirm that the idea of extinguishment is a provisional teaching, and that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity. At least in the above quote. But what puzzles me is that there are other writings where he talks about the twelve link chain of arising, where he seems to support the traditional view of extinguishment and Nirvana.

My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?

Also I read the same passage in the Burton Watson translation and it says the same thing.
Although the Ongi Kuden is a pious forgery, here I think Nichiren would agree because this is clearly stated in the prose section of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra:

"The Tathagata knows and sees the appearance of the Three Worlds in accordance with reality: there is no Birth-and-Death, whether backsliding or emerging; likewise there is neither existence in the world nor extinction; they are not real; they are not void, they are not thus; they are not different. It is not as the Three Worlds* see the Three Worlds. In such a matter as this the Tathagata sees clearly and is without error."

*Three Worlds...the unenlightened worldlings of the past, present, and future.
If it's a forgery, then it's a pretty good one. It goes really in depth in explaining Nichiren's interpretation of this scripture. It's also more detailed and makes more sense (to me) than all the other commentaries I've read.
sanshoshima
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:08 pm

Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by sanshoshima »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:02 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
You're only focusing on the realm of Bodhisattva. There are nine other realms, including the most critical one - Buddhahood.

In the correct view, there is neither attachment nor aversion nor even neutrality toward samsara. There is only upaya - liberating technique. To have aversion for samsara is to assume samsara to actually exist. It doesn't. It is dependently arisen from one's ignorance. So is nirvana. In the absence of ignorance, neither samsara nor nirvana exist as anything more than dependently arisen liberating techniques.

You're not going far enough in your analysis. You stopped at the realm of bodhisattvas who act within samsara to liberate beings and you are dismissing the insight bodhisattvas apply in liberating beings - the Buddha wisdom.

I don't know if you realize this, but you're the one coming up with a method to be comfortable with samsara. In your estimation, what is it exactly that Bodhisattvas are doing? Where are they leading beings? Without Buddhahood, bodhisattvas are just conducting beings in a more refined samsara, round and round and round.
I'm not sure if Toda was really serious about what he said in that quote, but it is a commonly held view within SGI that the cycle of birth and death goes on eternally. There are quotes from Ikeda that seem to support this view also. It's part of the reason I asked this, actually!
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:02 pm

You're not going far enough in your analysis.
Fair enough.
My view of Buddhism is a personal one. I don't distinguish between lets say Mother Nature and Buddhism.My concept of Japan is one of a culture intrinsically connected to Mother Nature and all that ,that implies.
This vessel we are dwelling is an amazing feat of engineering and the environment that supports is so beautiful.
I look at the Japanese masters of old and see them trying to become one with nature and their environment.

Nichiren's teachings always connect with living in the human realm and it's connection to the environment. Most of His Gosho are dealing with problems of society and just living in this world. His advice is always about that very connection. Giving the why and where with all to cope and understand and fix the situation for the future.

Take Lama Tsong Khapa as an example of what drives me to this.
Look at His depiction, sitting on a Lotus and Moon cushion holding the stem of two lotus in hands which support a Dharma Book on one and a flaming sword on the other. That book is about everything. It is symbolic of all that is. To me it is the secret of life itself. Our connection to this life.

So yeah I'm a samsaric being who found the teachings of Nichiren in a violent time at every level. what's Kosen Rufu if anything but setting Samsara right. Samsara always was and always will be. To me it's all about this samsaric life and the cycling through it's realms .
ok so one attains buddhahood and then is permitted to enter a pure land. One aspect of your being stays there forever, another is capable of dwelling anywhere you wish in samsara and the other , the dharma body is one with everything.

This concept might not even scratch the surface of QQ's concept but it is mine. Maybe when you QQ attain buddhahood you might adopt my view of life and what Buddhism is all about. Maybe not...but for now I'm very comfortable with Nichiren's teachings and his lease on life.

I talk to the wind. Literally and at times the results are inarticutable. I seek the release of immunity to cope with covid19. It's been a springboard to realizing all the healing is buried in genetics and can be accessed with wisdom that the Book Lama Tsong Khapa holds. For me anyway.

In a nutshell nature and buddhism are one and the same. buddhism puts us in more rhythum with nature and balances us.
This might be where Nichiren departed from TenDai only doctrine. take the doctrine and apply it to daily life of the community he lived in. Add to it His enlightenment which I feel I get.

I don't really get all the teachings on what buddha's enlightenment is all about coming from people who are not even realized Bohdistavas. just saying.
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:58 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am

This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
Eternalism is a basic "wrong view" in Buddhism. Moreover, the odds of being born human are extremely slim, and an undesirable birth is exponentially more likely. In general, one should want to seize the opportunity of this life to make causes to end the cycle of birth and death.

Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara. His teaching is aimed at generating the single moment of faith described in the 17th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra that indelibly puts one on the path to bodhi.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:03 am
markatex wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:09 pm
My question is, is Nichiren saying that the cycle of birth and death goes on for all eternity?
I don't think so. I think he's talking about the arhat ideal vs. the bodhisattva ideal. Also, the Ongi Kuden may or may not have actually been taught by Nichiren. This particular passage seems to strongly favor hongaku (original enlightenment) teachings, which Nichiren generally steered clear of. I'd take it with a grain of salt.
I may be wrong, but doesn't the concept of original enlightenment come from the Lotus Sutra? The concept of ten worlds and their mutual possession would suggest that our enlightened nature exists inherently as a potential. I know there is another interpretation that we are already enlightened just as we are, but I don't think that view has been suggested in Ongi kuden.
There's bad hongaku - we are enlightened as we are and therefore do not need to make any effort, and good hongaku - sentient beings universally possess Buddhanature.

IMO Nichiren, if he taught hongaku, taught the good hongaku.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Queequeg »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:14 am That puts things into context and makes more sense, thank you. Taking the concept of emptiness into account, there really is no birth or death outside of our delusions. My understanding is that both the Hinayana and Mahayana teachings seek to end the cycle of birth and death, but the way in which that is accomplished is different, right? The difference being ending craving vs ending ignorance.
More or less, except, what does it mean to end the cycle of birth and death if the cycle was illusory to begin with? Life and death is a mirage, and like the mirage of water in a desert, one doesn't end the water when one comes to the place they saw the mirage and finds only sand; the water was never there to begin with. From a conventional view we might say we end the cycle of birth and death, but from a higher view, that's not what happens.

This does not mean that the suffering of life can be dismissed. When suffering is experienced it is experienced as real - painful, stressful, etc. That is why we want to overcome suffering.
Also, I feel like the Life Span chapter could easily be misinterpreted as advocating for an eternalist view. If you read it without much background knowledge, that is!
This is covered in the story. Consider who is in the Assembly described in the first chapter. This teaching is given to sravakas and bodhisattvas - these are people who are presumably very advanced. They are not in danger of mistaking the Buddha's meaning. But, yeah, people who pick up the book without a background and who do not read carefully are liable to get it wrong.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by illarraza »

sanshoshima wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:58 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:24 am

This is something I have been trying to get across for awhile now.
It's all about samsara and dwelling in this life to aid sentients.
I recall Toda saying if he attains enlightenment he will hold off on going to the pure land and remain here till kosen rufu is accomplished . When it is , he says he will find another planet to do it all over again. Now this is something I read in old Gakki world Tribune. He might have worded it differently or the translation might be different as well....But the gist, is true to what he was trying to get across.


for me the True Bohdisatva is about this attitude
To look upon the cycles of living and dying with dislike and to try and avoid them is a pointless delusion
I can't understand why this obsession with pure land as a goal is seen as a goal for a Bohdistava. For me it is tool to teach people to get them started on the path with a promise that is upaya. The real work is here and now in samsara.

Escapeism in Buddhism is about finding some sort of happiness for yourself. When it really is about helping others eternally.

If anything the pure land as a goal to go to in order to learn in order to come back here is more on the mark.

But as a goal for eternity...meh what about us down here eh ?
Believe me, I like living and would find the eternalist view very appealing. I wouldn't mind being reborn again and again. But then again, the life I'm currently living is not too bad. Who's to say that the next life will be a good one? I could even be reborn as an animal at some point. There is a lot of uncertainty, so I can understand why rebirth is seen as something to overcome.
The Lotus Sutra guarantees the faithful, "peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next." Chapter 18, The Benefits of Responding With Joy teaches in the prose section:

“Moreover, Ajita, suppose a person for the sake of this sutra visits a monks’ quarters and, sitting or standing, even for a moment listens to it and accepts it. As a result of the benefits so obtained, when he is reborn in his next existence he will enjoy the finest, most superior and wonderful elephants, horses, and carriages, and palanquins decked with rare treasures, and will mount up to the heavenly palaces. Or suppose there is a person who is sitting in the place where the Law is expounded, and when another person appears, the first person urges him to sit down and listen, or offers to share his seat and so persuades him to sit down. The benefits gained by this person will be such that when he is reborn he will be in a place where the lord Shakra is seated, where the heavenly king Brahma is seated, or where a wheel-turning sage king is seated.

“Ajita, suppose there is a person who speaks to another person, saying, ‘There is a sutra called the Lotus. Let us go together and listen to it.’ And suppose, having been urged, the other person goes and even for an instant listens to the sutra. The benefits of the first person will be such that when he is reborn he will be born in the same place as dharani bodhisattvas. He will have keen faculties and wisdom. For a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand ages he will never be struck dumb. His mouth will not emit a foul odor. His tongue will never be afflicted, nor will his mouth be afflicted. His teeth will not be stained or black, nor will they be yellow or widely spaced, nor will they be missing or fall out or be at an angle or crooked. His lips will not droop down or curl back or be rough or chapped or afflicted with sores or misshapen or twisted or too thick or too big or black or discolored or unsightly in any way. His nose will not be too broad or flat or crooked or too highly arched. His face will not be swarthy, nor will it be long and narrow, or sunken and distorted. He will not have a single unsightly feature. His lips, tongue, and teeth will all be handsomely proportioned. His nose will be long and high, his face round and full, his eyebrows long and set high, his forehead broad, smooth, and well shaped, and he will be endowed with all the features proper to a human being. In each existence he is born into, he will see the Buddha, hear his Law, and have faith in his teachings.

“Ajita, just observe! The benefits gained merely by encouraging one person to go and listen to the Law are such as this! How much more, then, if one single-mindedly hears, preaches, reads, and recites the sutra and before the great assembly makes distinctions for the sake of people and practices it as the sutra instructs!”

and in the verse section:

"I will now describe one’s blessings.
In existences to come among heavenly and human beings
one will acquire wonderful elephants, horses, carriages,
palanquins adorned with rare jewels,
and will mount to the palaces of heaven.
If in the place where the Law is expounded
one encourages someone to sit and hear the sutra,
the blessings one acquires will enable one
to gain the seat of Shakra, Brahma, and the wheel-turner.
How much more so if one listens single-mindedly,
explains and expounds the meaning,
and practices the sutra as the sutra instructs—
one’s blessings will know no bounds!"

In Chapter 28, Encouragements of the Bodhisattva Universal Worthy, we read:

“Their wishes will not be in vain, and in this present existence they will gain the reward of good fortune.”

and also,

“In this present existence he will have manifest reward for it.”

Nichiren has this to say in one of his most important writings which often brings tears of joy to my eyes:

"This sutra passage and my own experience tally exactly. By now all the doubts that I have raised earlier should be dispelled, and thousands of difficulties are nothing to me. Let me show you phrase by phrase how the text applies to me. “They may be despised,” or, as the Lotus Sutra says, people will “despise, hate, envy, or bear grudges against them”—and in exactly that manner I have been treated with contempt and arrogance for over twenty years. “They may be cursed with an ugly appearance,” “They may be poorly clad”—these too apply to me. “They may be poorly fed”—that applies to me. “They may seek wealth in vain”—that applies to me. “They may be born to an impoverished and lowly family”—that applies to me. “They may be persecuted by their sovereign”—can there be any doubt that the passage applies to me? The Lotus Sutra says, “Again and again we will be banished,” and the passage from the Parinirvāna Sutra says, “They may be subjected to various other sufferings and retributions.” [These passages also apply to me.]

The passage also says, “It is due to the blessings obtained by protecting the Law that they can diminish in this lifetime their suffering and retribution.” The fifth volume of Great Concentration and Insight has this to say on the subject: “The feeble merits produced by a mind only half intent on the practice cannot alter [the realm of karma]. But if one carries out the practice of concentration and insight so as to observe ‘health’ and ‘illness,’ then one can alter the cycle of birth and death [in the realm of karma].” It also says, “[As practice progresses and understanding grows], the three obstacles and four devils emerge in confusing form, vying with one another to interfere.”

From the beginningless past I have been born countless times as an evil ruler who deprived the votaries of the Lotus Sutra of their robes and rations, their fields and crops, much as the people of Japan in the present day go about destroying the temples dedicated to the Lotus Sutra. In addition, countless times I cut off the heads of the votaries of the Lotus Sutra. Some of these grave offenses I have already paid for, but there must be some that are not paid for yet. Even if I seem to have paid for them all, there are still ill effects that remain. When the time comes for me to transcend the sufferings of birth and death, it will be only after I have completely freed myself from these grave offenses. My merits are insignificant, but these offenses are grave.

and further down, Nichiren quotes the Nirvana Sutra:

“Although they do not seek emancipation, emancipation will come of itself.”

Nichiren teaches in On Practicing the Buddha's Teaching:

"...In their present existence the people will be freed from misfortune and disasters and learn the art of living long..."

One can feel the bad karma of a quintillion + lifetimes being expiated in a matter of months or years, in this very life. I can attest to the many times in this very life where I shouldn't have made it to this ripe old age of 67: At 3 years old, two neighbor boys hung me on a clothesline; avoiding two potentially devastating car accidents that should have been impossible to avoid; losing my kidneys 6 + years ago and still managing to work full time until May; cancer of the kidney; peritonitis three times in 2019 and a heart attack the second bout of peritonitis; someone pulling a gun on me just walking down the road. An infrarenal dissecting aneurism that fortunately went back into the aorta; blood pressures over two hundred, many days in the past, atherosclerosis throughout my body except my brain, and good looks :P. I'm now seeking part time work performing senior evaluations throughout East Central Ok.

The Lotus Sutra Buddhism of Nichiren teaches that there are Three Treasures: The treasure of material things; the treasure of the body, and most importantly, the treasures of the heart. The first two treasures I have had in abundance until 6 years ago, not even catching a cold for 7 or eight years prior and an upper middle class lifestyle. I wouldn't trade my treasures of the heart for a billion dollars or the good fortune to be without illness until I'm one hundred years old. Literally, I shed tears of joy daily. It is thanks to Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo, the Gohonzon, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo chapter of the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren that i can offer my thanks and praise to the Lotus Sutra today. Chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo fills me with the lifeforce that is draining. The Lotus Sutra is truly a great physician that can change poison into medicine as Bodhisattva Nagarjuna taught.

Mark
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Re: I read Ongi kuden chapter 16, and it left me a little perplexed..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:41 pm
This does not mean that the suffering of life can be dismissed. When suffering is experienced it is experienced as real - painful, stressful, etc. That is why we want to overcome suffering.
I hesitate to claim you are coming from a nihilistic approach to all this. But it does seem that way. Check what I bolded and underlined.
It is very real QQ. It's just when taken apart and analyzed through the view of sunyata it is not inherant . It's why change is a constant.

on another note
The extinguishing of karma and getting totally back to that pure state of Buddha is the goal. The nature of Samsara is that it is realms of desire, which lead to suffering.

So we wish to extinguish that which is the root cause to suffering, Karma.
This is why in Mappo with the teachings of Nichiren there is the best opportunity for sentients to accomplish this. And to once again go back to my saying I see Buddhism as a means to get back in tune with Mother Nature(for lack of a better word to describe where I am going here) Buddhism is all about us and our relationship with our environment. The beauty of our ecosystems and immunity systems and all the wisdom that keeps this incredible world happening.
Also I believe it's the gods and enlightened ones that are responsible for this aspect of the world we dwell in with these incredible bodies. they allow it to be beautiful instead of some horrid nightmarish land of noxious fumes and ugliness.
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:19 pm
Nichiren's teachings do not deviate from this basic Buddhist aim to end samsara.
No where does He state this, because there is no end to samsara. It will never have an end.
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