Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

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bcol01
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Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by bcol01 »

.
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

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Giovanni
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Giovanni »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:15 am.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
...to open the conversation, and Giovanni merely quoted Kim's equally cogent reply:
Giovanni wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:09 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:15 am.
Isn't it about time someone actually said something?

:popcorn:
Kim
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Aemilius
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Aemilius »

"Many animals are self-aware. At any rate, I claim, the cumulative force of various empirical data and conceptual considerations makes it more reasonable to accept than to deny this thesis. Moreover, there are importantly different sorts of self-awareness. If my arguments are on the right track, then scientists and philosophers have significantly underestimated the case for animal self-awareness.

TYPES OF SELF-AWARENESS

"The most primitive type of self-awareness is bodily self-awareness, an awareness of one's own body as importantly different from the rest of the environment – as directly connected with certain feelings and subject to one's direct control. Because of bodily self-awareness, one does not eat oneself. And one pursues certain goals. Bodily self-awareness includes proprioception: an awareness of body parts, their position, their movement, and overall body position. It also involves various sensations that are informative about what is happening to the body: pain, itches, tickles, hunger, as well as sensations of warmth, cold, and tactile pressure. These forms of awareness are essential to any creature that can feel features of its body and environment and act appropriately in response. In sum, bodily self-awareness includes both an awareness of one's own bodily condition and an awareness of one's agency, of moving around and acting in the world. Somewhat radically, I suggest that most or all sentient animals have this type of self-awareness."

from The Philosophy of Animal Minds, 201.. 217, published online by Cambridge University Press: 05 June 2012
By
David DeGrazia
Edited by
Robert W. Lurz
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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justsit
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by justsit »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
Basically - no.

There's an old saying here: It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it frustrates you and annoys the pig.

Better to make aspirations that those folks develop awareness, may all beings be happy, peaceful, and free from suffering.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Genjo Conan »

This presupposes that we, ourselves, possess self-awareness.
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Ayu
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Ayu »

Genjo Conan wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:38 pm This presupposes that we, ourselves, possess self-awareness.
:lol: Good point.
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

justsit wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:29 pm
bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
Basically - no.

There's an old saying here: It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it frustrates you and annoys the pig.

Better to make aspirations that those folks develop awareness, may all beings be happy, peaceful, and free from suffering.
:good:

If someone is an emotional drain, they keep repeating the same harmful patterns that they seemingly can’t gain awareness of, our time is better spent elsewhere.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by reiun »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
On a discussion forum such as this, engagement would be via comment . . .

Skipping that irony, intentional or un-, since we practice on behalf of all beings, none deserves less compassion than any other, "advanced" (i.e., self-aware) or not. Not much to be said about passing judgment on others, either.
illarraza
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by illarraza »

bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
Technically speaking, according to scientists, many animals lack self-awareness and this is one characteristic that differentiates animals from humans. I don't believe this for a moment. I believe that my animals by hearing Namu Myoho renge kyo, lessen their karmic retribution and that they will move up the "evolutionary scale". Nichiren teaches that animals that encounter a Namu Myoho renge kyo toba (tablet) in the forest are saved. So of course humans who "appear" to lack self awareness will be saved by Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Mark
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

illarraza wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:17 pm
bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
Technically speaking, according to scientists, many animals lack self-awareness and this is one characteristic that differentiates animals from humans. I don't believe this for a moment. I believe that my animals by hearing Namu Myoho renge kyo, lessen their karmic retribution and that they will move up the "evolutionary scale". Nichiren teaches that animals that encounter a Namu Myoho renge kyo toba (tablet) in the forest are saved. So of course humans who "appear" to lack self awareness will be saved by Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Mark
:good:

I recite nembutsu for my cats, and sometimes other animals or insects. It's very important for beings to come close to the Three Jewels.
Your animals' affection/relationship with you is another way they come close to the Three Jewels.
I like to think my pets are making a positive association between their comfort and happiness with me, and these sounds/images.

Regarding the question of the thread, I think it's good to remember patience, with all kinds of people.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Aemilius
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Aemilius »

明安 Myoan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:56 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:17 pm
bcol01 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:05 am.
Technically speaking, according to scientists, many animals lack self-awareness and this is one characteristic that differentiates animals from humans. I don't believe this for a moment. I believe that my animals by hearing Namu Myoho renge kyo, lessen their karmic retribution and that they will move up the "evolutionary scale". Nichiren teaches that animals that encounter a Namu Myoho renge kyo toba (tablet) in the forest are saved. So of course humans who "appear" to lack self awareness will be saved by Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Mark
:good:

I recite nembutsu for my cats, and sometimes other animals or insects. It's very important for beings to come close to the Three Jewels.
Your animals' affection/relationship with you is another way they come close to the Three Jewels.
I like to think my pets are making a positive association between their comfort and happiness with me, and these sounds/images.

Regarding the question of the thread, I think it's good to remember patience, with all kinds of people.
I have experienced that in the present state of affairs this is not true anymore. That is to say that if you make animals aware of the state of humans by reciting some mantra to them, they will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it. Because humans are far worse, far more evil, than they (animals) could have ever imagined. Reciting a mantra for animals has an adverse effect, in most cases or usually, I have found. You should be aware of the animals and insects, what their state really is.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
illarraza
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by illarraza »

Aemilius wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:01 am
明安 Myoan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:56 pm
illarraza wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 6:17 pm

Technically speaking, according to scientists, many animals lack self-awareness and this is one characteristic that differentiates animals from humans. I don't believe this for a moment. I believe that my animals by hearing Namu Myoho renge kyo, lessen their karmic retribution and that they will move up the "evolutionary scale". Nichiren teaches that animals that encounter a Namu Myoho renge kyo toba (tablet) in the forest are saved. So of course humans who "appear" to lack self awareness will be saved by Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Mark
:good:

I recite nembutsu for my cats, and sometimes other animals or insects. It's very important for beings to come close to the Three Jewels.
Your animals' affection/relationship with you is another way they come close to the Three Jewels.
I like to think my pets are making a positive association between their comfort and happiness with me, and these sounds/images.

Regarding the question of the thread, I think it's good to remember patience, with all kinds of people.
I have experienced that in the present state of affairs this is not true anymore. That is to say that if you make animals aware of the state of humans by reciting some mantra to them, they will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it. Because humans are far worse, far more evil, than they (animals) could have ever imagined. Reciting a mantra for animals has an adverse effect, in most cases or usually, I have found. You should be aware of the animals and insects, what their state really is.
True about humans in general, being far more evil than animals but that, "animals will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it (mantra)" has not been my experience. My wolves often lay down behind us when we chant, their ears raised, seemingly listening. We also believe that Fluffy wolf is Vodka Putt Putt reborn, having a similar facial structure, habitus, and webbed feet but with a more gentle mien. Fluffy has never growled at us nor born his teeth, even when we take a meat bone from him. Despite being almost 150 pounds, he is submissive to his 75 pound daughter Namu White Wolf and trembles when she attacks him if he wants to, for example, also get on our bed. He is an alpha and she is an omega. So gentle is Fluffy and his daughter Namu (to humans) that it is our belief that were humans as loving and docile as them, there would be no war. Namu literally licks every one of our family members and friends. Our Great Pyrenees, Myoho, protects all of us and she is the boss. Twinkle, our 13 year old Springer Spaniel is the only completely outside dog. She is very smart and our first line of defense. She looks both ways before crossing the highway.

Mark
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Aemilius
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by Aemilius »

illarraza wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 7:57 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:01 am
明安 Myoan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:56 pm

:good:

I recite nembutsu for my cats, and sometimes other animals or insects. It's very important for beings to come close to the Three Jewels.
Your animals' affection/relationship with you is another way they come close to the Three Jewels.
I like to think my pets are making a positive association between their comfort and happiness with me, and these sounds/images.

Regarding the question of the thread, I think it's good to remember patience, with all kinds of people.
I have experienced that in the present state of affairs this is not true anymore. That is to say that if you make animals aware of the state of humans by reciting some mantra to them, they will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it. Because humans are far worse, far more evil, than they (animals) could have ever imagined. Reciting a mantra for animals has an adverse effect, in most cases or usually, I have found. You should be aware of the animals and insects, what their state really is.
True about humans in general, being far more evil than animals but that, "animals will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it (mantra)" has not been my experience. My wolves often lay down behind us when we chant, their ears raised, seemingly listening. We also believe that Fluffy wolf is Vodka Putt Putt reborn, having a similar facial structure, habitus, and webbed feet but with a more gentle mien. Fluffy has never growled at us nor born his teeth, even when we take a meat bone from him. Despite being almost 150 pounds, he is submissive to his 75 pound daughter Namu White Wolf and trembles when she attacks him if he wants to, for example, also get on our bed. He is an alpha and she is an omega. So gentle is Fluffy and his daughter Namu (to humans) that it is our belief that were humans as loving and docile as them, there would be no war. Namu literally licks every one of our family members and friends. Our Great Pyrenees, Myoho, protects all of us and she is the boss. Twinkle, our 13 year old Springer Spaniel is the only completely outside dog. She is very smart and our first line of defense. She looks both ways before crossing the highway.

Mark
Nice to hear!
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Depends what you mean by "engage with."
On the one hand, as Mahayana practitioners, most of us are supposedly working for the benefit of all (sentient) beings, regardless of how aware they are of themselves or anything else. Think Noble Bodhisattva Ksitigharba toiling away in the lowest hells kalpa after kalpa...

On the other hand, there are numerous passages in Sutras warning us about various types of people to avoid or associate with.

And then there is good old common sense that should make us aware that certain people just might not happen to be in the right time or place for you or them to benefit from interaction at the moment...
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
illarraza
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Re: Is there any use engaging with those who lack self-awareness?

Post by illarraza »

illarraza wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 7:57 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:01 am
明安 Myoan wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:56 pm

:good:

I recite nembutsu for my cats, and sometimes other animals or insects. It's very important for beings to come close to the Three Jewels.
Your animals' affection/relationship with you is another way they come close to the Three Jewels.
I like to think my pets are making a positive association between their comfort and happiness with me, and these sounds/images.

Regarding the question of the thread, I think it's good to remember patience, with all kinds of people.
I have experienced that in the present state of affairs this is not true anymore. That is to say that if you make animals aware of the state of humans by reciting some mantra to them, they will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it. Because humans are far worse, far more evil, than they (animals) could have ever imagined. Reciting a mantra for animals has an adverse effect, in most cases or usually, I have found. You should be aware of the animals and insects, what their state really is.
True about humans in general, being far more evil than animals but that, "animals will be shocked, distressed and disturbed by it (mantra)" has not been my experience. My wolves often lay down behind us when we chant, their ears raised, seemingly listening. We also believe that Fluffy wolf is Vodka Putt Putt reborn, having a similar facial structure, habitus, and webbed feet but with a more gentle mien. Fluffy has never growled at us nor born his teeth, even when we take a meat bone from him. Despite being almost 150 pounds, he is submissive to his 75 pound daughter Namu White Wolf and trembles when she attacks him if he wants to, for example, also get on our bed. He is an alpha and she is an omega. So gentle is Fluffy and his daughter Namu (to humans) that it is our belief that were humans as loving and docile as them, there would be no war. Namu literally licks every one of our family members and friends. Our Great Pyrenees, Myoho, protects all of us and she is the boss. Twinkle, our 13 year old Springer Spaniel is the only completely outside dog. She is very smart and our first line of defense. She looks both ways before crossing the highway.

Mark
Should have said, he is an omega and she is an alpha.
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