Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:49 pm why would you refer to the reality from which we live in as extrinsic ?
I didn't.
There must be a reason why Nichiren did not even ask of His students to study TenDai.
Of course he did. And he continued to send his students to Mt. Hiei to study. At Minobu, there were lectures on Tendai once a month. If you actually read Nichiren's gosho and look at the construction of his arguments, you will see that he relies extensively on Tendai material, and if you become familiar with Tendai material, it is readily apparent that he is wholly working within Tendai views and language. It would not be inaccurate to say that much of his writing is explaining Tendai teachings. For at least the earlier part of his public career, he seems to have viewed himself as a Tendai reformer.
He seems to feel even the meditation Tendai focuses on is not of importance in the long run.
As Narwhal points out, Nichiren certainly counseled learning ichinen sanzen practice if one has the capacity and inclination, but of course, he did not suggest it was essential. The only essential practice at this time according to Nichiren was faith in the saddharma. But that's because of particular circumstances in Mappo.
He merely gave it "If you wish to do it attitude" and only after you do the real practice of Odaimoku and gongyo with study and faith.
No. It was more than that. If a person could, then they should. Frankly, as also pointed out by Narwhal, Tendai is not readily accessible by most people, historically or down to the present, even with standards significantly relaxed. Its a tall order that involves teachings and practices that are not suited to the vast majority of human beings.
Even though He teaches ichinen sanzen it's like it is just a view and not something to devote yourself to in meditation and practice.I get the impression it's like more of a hobby than actual practice for His Students.

I get the idea that all He asks of us is a basic understanding of Ichinen sanzen in order to incorporate into the paradigm.
You are absolutely wrong. Ichinen Sanzen was the key for Nichiren. If all a person can manage is to mutter the daimoku, then what can reasonably be asked of them? In those cases, that's all they need to do, but that is not the limit of what he taught.

Kanjin no Honzon sho is one of Nichiren's most important writings in which he explained his awakening. At the end he comments:
Showing profound compassion for those unable to comprehend the gem of the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life (ichinen sanzen), the Buddha wrapped it within the five characters [of Myoho-renge-kyo], with which he then adorned the necks of the ignorant people of the latter age.
I could show you many quotes about the essential importance of the teaching in Nichiren's scheme.
Yeah there are ten worlds in the view , but the practice goes far beyond this .
I don't think you understand the Ten Worlds doctrine. It explains why we course in samsara and our escape. Most importantly, it teaches Buddhanature.
In fact i had no idea of Ichinen sanzen when I watched my father's bone marrow come back to life from a state of absolute dead bone marrow not producing a single cell. To everything being produced albeit totally mutated and a wonder to the doctors.
It is like the case of a baby being given milk to drink. Even though the baby may not understand the flavor of milk, the milk naturally nurtures the baby’s growth. Similarly, if a physician gives medicine to a sick person, even though the sick person may not know the origin and nature of the medicine, if he takes it, then in the natural course of events his illness will be cured. But if he objects that he does not know the origin of the medicine that the physician gives him and for that reason declines to take it, do you think his illness will ever be cured? Whether he understands the medicine or not, so long as he takes it, he will in either case be cured.
-A conversation between a Sage and Unawakened man

If all one can muster is faithful reliance on reciting the Daimoku, Nichiren taught, that will carry one through. But to suppose that is the end of the path is presumptuous and willfully ignorant. Nichiren never suggested that such know-nothingism is the extent of the path.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

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Well maybe at the time of Nichiren the whole 3000 realm thing, ten world thing, was like a huge leap in a psychological study at the time.

But I see it as a very basic view .

Nothing much more than that.

Maybe at the time it was the height of intellectual prowess but today it's so outdated, almost banal .

No other buddhist sect even considers it to be of any use.

Don't mean to sound harsh but i think the whole concept is just a primitive view of the human condition .

Only the Tendai see something in it and well Nichiren did leave that sect .

One has to question why.

ok it was a big going concern at the time.
But it is just a view, a very primitive form of psychology.

This insistence that it is important with no real explanation of why Nichiren abandoned the sect to make something other than just ichinen sanzen..

He lept the view but nothing else..

show me where he teaches us something that actually is exceptional about ichinen sanzen.

i just don't get the big whoop.

maybe someone can enlighten me with facts.

I am not being obtuse here. Just shedding my inner thought process about the matter.

Lotus Buddhism is Nichiren's teachings.

Nichiren's teachings is what spread to our time. a modern time where His practice works wonders.

some say it is the only way to Buddhahood for those of us mired in Mappo .
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

It dates back to Tiantai, circa 500ad in China. Nichiren was orthodox in that way.
.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

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narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:19 pm It dates back to Tiantai, circa 500ad in China. Nichiren was orthodox in that way.
.
I don't think Nichiren was that orthodox when it came to this.

If you are Tendai ,of course you are going to read this totally as your paradigm into your understanding of Nichiren's dharma.

I think he lept from there , ichinen sanzen is not really what enlightenment is all about.

It's a view .

I cannot see it as actually being a part of the universe like gravity or Buddha nature.

Buddha revealed what is there.
what is there is different than upaya
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

i don't even
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

Clearly ichinen sanzen is a view, perhaps even skillful means. OTOH it is well worth examination as to the role of volition, buddha nature and relation to suffering. Probably it would be helpful to avoid judgements about it before doing so.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm Clearly ichinen sanzen is a view, perhaps even skillful means. OTOH it is well worth examination as to the role of volition, buddha nature and relation to suffering. Probably it would be helpful to avoid judgements about it before doing so.
it's not a judgemental thing.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

What is ichinen sanzen?

:popcorn:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:00 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm Clearly ichinen sanzen is a view, perhaps even skillful means. OTOH it is well worth examination as to the role of volition, buddha nature and relation to suffering. Probably it would be helpful to avoid judgements about it before doing so.
it's not a judgemental thing.
Well then perhaps then maybe avoid having opinions about it prior to detailed study. Nichirien devoted several goshos to studying the proposition and its implications, he thought it important.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ItsRaining »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:07 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:49 pm why would you refer to the reality from which we live in as extrinsic ?
I didn't.
There must be a reason why Nichiren did not even ask of His students to study TenDai.
Of course he did. And he continued to send his students to Mt. Hiei to study. At Minobu, there were lectures on Tendai once a month. If you actually read Nichiren's gosho and look at the construction of his arguments, you will see that he relies extensively on Tendai material, and if you become familiar with Tendai material, it is readily apparent that he is wholly working within Tendai views and language. It would not be inaccurate to say that much of his writing is explaining Tendai teachings. For at least the earlier part of his public career, he seems to have viewed himself as a Tendai reformer.
He seems to feel even the meditation Tendai focuses on is not of importance in the long run.
As Narwhal points out, Nichiren certainly counseled learning ichinen sanzen practice if one has the capacity and inclination, but of course, he did not suggest it was essential. The only essential practice at this time according to Nichiren was faith in the saddharma. But that's because of particular circumstances in Mappo.
He merely gave it "If you wish to do it attitude" and only after you do the real practice of Odaimoku and gongyo with study and faith.
No. It was more than that. If a person could, then they should. Frankly, as also pointed out by Narwhal, Tendai is not readily accessible by most people, historically or down to the present, even with standards significantly relaxed. Its a tall order that involves teachings and practices that are not suited to the vast majority of human beings.
Even though He teaches ichinen sanzen it's like it is just a view and not something to devote yourself to in meditation and practice.I get the impression it's like more of a hobby than actual practice for His Students.

I get the idea that all He asks of us is a basic understanding of Ichinen sanzen in order to incorporate into the paradigm.
You are absolutely wrong. Ichinen Sanzen was the key for Nichiren. If all a person can manage is to mutter the daimoku, then what can reasonably be asked of them? In those cases, that's all they need to do, but that is not the limit of what he taught.

Kanjin no Honzon sho is one of Nichiren's most important writings in which he explained his awakening. At the end he comments:
Showing profound compassion for those unable to comprehend the gem of the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life (ichinen sanzen), the Buddha wrapped it within the five characters [of Myoho-renge-kyo], with which he then adorned the necks of the ignorant people of the latter age.
I could show you many quotes about the essential importance of the teaching in Nichiren's scheme.
Yeah there are ten worlds in the view , but the practice goes far beyond this .
I don't think you understand the Ten Worlds doctrine. It explains why we course in samsara and our escape. Most importantly, it teaches Buddhanature.
In fact i had no idea of Ichinen sanzen when I watched my father's bone marrow come back to life from a state of absolute dead bone marrow not producing a single cell. To everything being produced albeit totally mutated and a wonder to the doctors.
It is like the case of a baby being given milk to drink. Even though the baby may not understand the flavor of milk, the milk naturally nurtures the baby’s growth. Similarly, if a physician gives medicine to a sick person, even though the sick person may not know the origin and nature of the medicine, if he takes it, then in the natural course of events his illness will be cured. But if he objects that he does not know the origin of the medicine that the physician gives him and for that reason declines to take it, do you think his illness will ever be cured? Whether he understands the medicine or not, so long as he takes it, he will in either case be cured.
-A conversation between a Sage and Unawakened man

If all one can muster is faithful reliance on reciting the Daimoku, Nichiren taught, that will carry one through. But to suppose that is the end of the path is presumptuous and willfully ignorant. Nichiren never suggested that such know-nothingism is the extent of the path.
Just FYI, Tendai or at least Tiantai is fairly accessible. It’s doctrinal classifications, three truths, ichinen sanzen, the Smaller Samatha and Vipassyana, etc. are used pretty commonly to teach lay people, at least in Chinese traditions.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ronnymarsh »

illarraza wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:19 am Nichiren was quite critical of the Hosso (Dharma Characteristics School), calling it worse than the non-Buddhist teachings because of its Five Natures Doctrine which denied Buddhahood for those of two of five natures. As far as their Madhyamaka doctrine, he contrasted it to Tientai's superior Three Truth doctrine. The Lotus Sutra, as you know, predicts Buddhahood for all who even hear Myoho renge kyo but once, even for those who commit the Five Cardinal Sins and incorrigible disbelievers.
Nichiren criticized all schools, including Yogacara (Hosso) and Madhyamaka (Sanron).

I am not saying that Nichiren is an adept of Yogacara or Madhyamaka, I am saying that he, like the entire world of the Sino-Japanese Buddhist scene, part of a philosophical notion that synthesizes yogacara and madhyamaka, whose essential characteristic is thinking the Absolute in yogacara terms and expressing it in madhyamaka terms.

The problem is that at present, adherents and teachers ignore this fact and militate for a Puritan Madhyamaka perspective driven by critical Buddhism and the influence that the Gelugpas, through the Dalai Lama's popularity, exert on the world Buddhist community today.

As the Gelugpas are strict adherents of a Madhyamaka current, the interpretations of themes such as the Absolute, Emptyness, Nirvana, etc. that are currently made are almost always based on Madhyamaka's "gelugpa" perspective.

Here's why I cited the "Awakening of Faith" in this understanding of what enlightenment is:

This text, as well as the schools influenced by it (Huayen, Ch'an and Chinese Pure Land) understand the reality formed by three basic elements:
1) One Mind
2) Conventional Portal
3) Absolute Portal
The concept in Japanese is called "Ichinen Nimon" (One Mind, Two Portals. When he speaks of "two portals" he is talking about two types of reality: samsara and nirvana.
In theory, this conception means that the Absolute (Ichinen) is present in both Samsara and Nirvana, both in Suffering and in Enlightenment (Two Portals).

In the Hokke tradition we do not take this book into account, however we do have, from Tiantai, the notion of "Ichinen Sanzen"
Ichinen Sanzen means "One Mind, Three Thousand (dharmas or dhatus)"
The concept of "Ichinen" is the same, the sphere of the Absolute, and no further explanation is needed.

"Sanzen" (three thousand) is the number we get when we take the ten realms, which include the six realms of ignorance/samsara and the four realms of enlightenment/nirvana.
As the ten realms have all ten realms in itself and each of these dharmas have all the "ten suchness" encompassed by the "Three Domains", when we speak of "Sanzen" we are referring to all the dharmas of the two spheres: nirvana/enlightenment - samsara/ignorance.

In other words, "Sanzen" is a more structured and accurate form of "Two Portals". The difference between the two lies solely in the following fact:

When we say "ichinen nimon", we don't understand how this can be coherent. How can a single absolute element contain two other radically opposite elements?

However, when we say "ichinen sanzen" it is clear to us how this occurs.

That is, "Ichinen Nimon" from the Huayen school and "Ichinen Sanzen" from the Lotus school are demonstrating the same reality, however, the principle of "Ichinen Sanzen" demonstrates how this is possible and coherent.

What does this imply for the subject of "enlightenment"?

Simple: there are two spheres of subjective reality, the conventional world, samsara, and the ultimate world, nirvana. But this is only observed when we analyze from "above", in the conventional world, of relationships.
But when we look "from within" in the sphere of the Absolute, Ichinen, there is no essential distinction between Nirvana and Samsara.

At the phenomenal level (sanzen/nimon) there is distinction, but at the ontological level (ichinen) there is none. So, given the understanding of this reality, what is possible to be done to achieve ultimate happiness?

Understand that there is nothing to be done but realizing innate Buddhahood.

A Buddha is a manifestation of an Absolute with a proper function: to sit in samadhi and preach the Dharma for the benefit of sentient beings. If you are able to sit in samadhi and preach the Dharma for the benefit of sentient beings, what distinction will there be between you and a Buddha?

If on a real, ontological level, you are already identical with the Buddha, and now on a conventional, epistemological level, you already exercise the function of a Buddha, what is this state that you have reached? the supreme State of Enlightenment of a Buddha.

However, this is easy to say, but not to accomplish as each being has its specific needs in order to reach this stage, and this realization can only be accomplished through a gradual method.

Although we speak of "sudden enlightenment" and "gradual enlightenment", there is actually only one enlightenment that is achieved gradually. And for that there is a whole process that starts with "a good friend".

However, sudden enlightenment is something that is valid from a point of view where your karma has taken you to a situation where you are already almost enlightened, on the path of the Bodhisatta, and in that circumstance you can attain realization in a simple moment, as enlightenment in Zen intends to be.

The problem is that this is not true for all beings. While some have these seeds already producing fruits and flowers, others do not even have the seeds of goodness.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:32 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:00 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:57 pm Clearly ichinen sanzen is a view, perhaps even skillful means. OTOH it is well worth examination as to the role of volition, buddha nature and relation to suffering. Probably it would be helpful to avoid judgements about it before doing so.
it's not a judgemental thing.
Well then perhaps then maybe avoid having opinions about it prior to detailed study. Nichirien devoted several goshos to studying the proposition and its implications, he thought it important.

Gosho were written to common folk. I doubt if Nichiren ever thought they would turn into the gospel like thing it has.
Admittedly. Nichiren true teaching are esoteric and exoteric
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:53 am
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:32 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:00 pm

it's not a judgemental thing.
Well then perhaps then maybe avoid having opinions about it prior to detailed study. Nichirien devoted several goshos to studying the proposition and its implications, he thought it important.

Gosho were written to common folk. I doubt if Nichiren ever thought they would turn into the gospel like thing it has.
Admittedly. Nichiren true teaching are esoteric and exoteric
They are fundamental guidance given to his lay followers, I'm unsure they should be dispensed with so lightly. FWIW some of his most technical goshos were written to Tendai monks, some of whom had converted to his school. I am not suggesting taking goshos as gospel, but if you want to understand something about why Nichiren thought ichinen sanzen was important, studying the goshos related to it would be a good start. His is likely not the final word on the subject, I read them because if I'm chanting daimoku and have a gohonzon then I'm interested in his what he says.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:52 am
Minobu wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:53 am
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:32 pm

Well then perhaps then maybe avoid having opinions about it prior to detailed study. Nichirien devoted several goshos to studying the proposition and its implications, he thought it important.

Gosho were written to common folk. I doubt if Nichiren ever thought they would turn into the gospel like thing it has.
Admittedly. Nichiren true teaching are esoteric and exoteric
They are fundamental guidance given to his lay followers, I'm unsure they should be dispensed with so lightly. FWIW some of his most technical goshos were written to Tendai monks, some of whom had converted to his school. I am not suggesting taking goshos as gospel, but if you want to understand something about why Nichiren thought ichinen sanzen was important, studying the goshos related to it would be a good start. His is likely not the final word on the subject, I read them because if I'm chanting daimoku and have a gohonzon then I'm interested in his what he says.
So this is where i expect you all know me and where I am at.

This is me still figuring out the deal.

i have pure faith in the whole entity of the mystic law, the Lotus Sutra as an embodiment of Buddha .

Now I'm sure Nichiren meant well and I'm also sure He knew full well the capacity of the people He was hanging with.
And more importantly what they believed in.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

So does that mean you won't be studying his goshos relating to ichinen sanzen?
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:33 am I am not saying that Nichiren is an adept of Yogacara or Madhyamaka, I am saying that he, like the entire world of the Sino-Japanese Buddhist scene, part of a philosophical notion that synthesizes yogacara and madhyamaka, whose essential characteristic is thinking the Absolute in yogacara terms and expressing it in madhyamaka terms.


No idea what that even means.
The problem is that at present, adherents and teachers ignore this fact and militate for a Puritan Madhyamaka perspective driven by critical Buddhism and the influence that the Gelugpas, through the Dalai Lama's popularity, exert on the world Buddhist community today.

As the Gelugpas are strict adherents of a Madhyamaka current, the interpretations of themes such as the Absolute, Emptyness, Nirvana, etc. that are currently made are almost always based on Madhyamaka's "gelugpa" perspective.
You're dealing with such broad generalizations that your assertions are meaningless.
Here's why I cited the "Awakening of Faith"...
Awakening of Faith has no place in Lotus Traditions and is in fact criticized.

It is not necessary to refer to all this theory you've come up with to understand what Nichiren teaching about awakening. You can just follow up with the texts he cites which are almost entirely Tendai/Tientai exoteric texts.
The concept in Japanese is called "Ichinen Nimon" (One Mind, Two Portals. When he speaks of "two portals" he is talking about two types of reality: samsara and nirvana.
In theory, this conception means that the Absolute (Ichinen) is present in both Samsara and Nirvana, both in Suffering and in Enlightenment (Two Portals).
I don't know if what you are describing is accurate. Assuming you are correct, this is not comparable to Ichinensanzen. According to the Tientai schematic, this is an inferior teaching - this is a Distinct Teaching because it proposes to subsume relative (samsara) and ultimate (nirvana) within a higher order of truth. This arrangement is identified in Tientai teachings and is categorized as Distinct Teaching (within the Four Teaching analysis). This is what is called a Threefold Exclusive Truth, incontrast with Ichinen Sanzen which is a Threefold Inclusive Truth. (See Ng - Tientai Buddhism and Early Madhyamaka). This would be compatible with many forms of Japanese Buddhism, including Shingon and Kegon (to the extent it still exists). This is not, however, compatible with Lotus teachings that assert the Threefold Truth is inclusive, meaning, the three truths mutually are coextensive with each other without any having a superior position and are mutually coherent. "Samsara IS Nirvana" in Lotus Teachings, not "Samsara and Nirvana are two sides of the same coin, subsumed in a higher order reality" as proposed in your description of Ichinen Nimon.
In the Hokke tradition we do not take this book into account, however we do have, from Tiantai, the notion of "Ichinen Sanzen"
Ichinen Sanzen means "One Mind, Three Thousand (dharmas or dhatus)"
The concept of "Ichinen" is the same, the sphere of the Absolute, and no further explanation is needed.
No. Ichinen in ichinen-sanzen means mind-moment, ksana.
"Sanzen" (three thousand) is the number we get when we take the ten realms, which include the six realms of ignorance/samsara and the four realms of enlightenment/nirvana.
As the ten realms have all ten realms in itself and each of these dharmas have all the "ten suchness" encompassed by the "Three Domains", when we speak of "Sanzen" we are referring to all the dharmas of the two spheres: nirvana/enlightenment - samsara/ignorance.

In other words, "Sanzen" is a more structured and accurate form of "Two Portals".
The first part is more or less correct - 10 worlds mutually possess 10 worlds. You left out the rest.

Each of these worlds in turn have ten factors. These 10 worlds mutually possessing 10 worlds, each with ten factors, expresses as the individual, their community of sentient beings, and the environment. 10x10x10x3 = sanzen, or 3,000. The particulars are illustrative. 3,000 is an arbitrary number, really, but basically this number refers to the dharmadhatu, encompassing both sentient beings at the individual and social levels, and their environment.

As to the relationship between ichinen and sanzen, Zhiyi explained that it is neither vertical (meaning one is a higher order of truth than the other) nor is it horizontal (meaning distinct but equal categories). The two sides of the equation, Ichinen and Sanzen, are wholly integrated, coextensive, "two but not two". In Ziporyn's terminology, ichinen expresses as sanzen, and sanzen expresses as ichinen. It should then be apparent that we're not talking about "portals" (門 is usually translated as "gate", and this is the term used in most Lotus school related translation literature) to a higher level truth. The ultimate is THE Truth; the relative is THE truth; the middle is THE Truth; the three together is THE Truth (and finish the analysis out with the catuskoti).

The reference to ksana (ichinen) and dharmadhatu (sanzen) then offer a hint as to what this teaching is really about. Both of these terms refer to aspects of mind. Ichinen sanzen is a teaching about the mind of each sentient being. It is not an epistemological theory about how things really are in the scientific sense of some objective truth. Its a guide to understand what one sees when they examine the mind. Each of the 3,000 is not a "portal". What Zhiyi was pointing out was that one's mind is coextensive with and indistinguishable from the reality that we, as unawakened beings posit is separate from us. When this integration of mind and dharmadhatu is thoroughly understood experientially, this is bodhi - the realm of buddha, and critically, the structure of ichinen sanzen shows us that buddhahood is inseparable from the nine other worlds, ie. buddhanature permeates all and buddha is a coarising function for every sentient being and sentient beings are coarising functions of buddha.
The difference between the two lies solely in the following fact:

When we say "ichinen nimon", we don't understand how this can be coherent. How can a single absolute element contain two other radically opposite elements?
Aside from the fact that these are two very different teachings, if one is incapable of making the point clear, why bother bringing it up? Really, you're whole project here has done nothing to clarify "enlightenment" but rather muddy the waters and confuse things.
Simple: there are two spheres of subjective reality, the conventional world, samsara, and the ultimate world, nirvana. But this is only observed when we analyze from "above", in the conventional world, of relationships.
But when we look "from within" in the sphere of the Absolute, Ichinen, there is no essential distinction between Nirvana and Samsara.
Again, this is a Distinct Teaching. It has nothing to do with Ichinen Sanzen, the Perfect Teaching.

I will not address the rest of your analysis which is extrapolated from your incorrect understanding that I identified above.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by illarraza »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:36 pm
ronnymarsh wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:33 am I am not saying that Nichiren is an adept of Yogacara or Madhyamaka, I am saying that he, like the entire world of the Sino-Japanese Buddhist scene, part of a philosophical notion that synthesizes yogacara and madhyamaka, whose essential characteristic is thinking the Absolute in yogacara terms and expressing it in madhyamaka terms.


No idea what that even means.
The problem is that at present, adherents and teachers ignore this fact and militate for a Puritan Madhyamaka perspective driven by critical Buddhism and the influence that the Gelugpas, through the Dalai Lama's popularity, exert on the world Buddhist community today.

As the Gelugpas are strict adherents of a Madhyamaka current, the interpretations of themes such as the Absolute, Emptyness, Nirvana, etc. that are currently made are almost always based on Madhyamaka's "gelugpa" perspective.
You're dealing with such broad generalizations that your assertions are meaningless.
Here's why I cited the "Awakening of Faith"...
Awakening of Faith has no place in Lotus Traditions and is in fact criticized.

It is not necessary to refer to all this theory you've come up with to understand what Nichiren teaching about awakening. You can just follow up with the texts he cites which are almost entirely Tendai/Tientai exoteric texts.
The concept in Japanese is called "Ichinen Nimon" (One Mind, Two Portals. When he speaks of "two portals" he is talking about two types of reality: samsara and nirvana.
In theory, this conception means that the Absolute (Ichinen) is present in both Samsara and Nirvana, both in Suffering and in Enlightenment (Two Portals).
I don't know if what you are describing is accurate. Assuming you are correct, this is not comparable to Ichinensanzen. According to the Tientai schematic, this is an inferior teaching - this is a Distinct Teaching because it proposes to subsume relative (samsara) and ultimate (nirvana) within a higher order of truth. This arrangement is identified in Tientai teachings and is categorized as Distinct Teaching (within the Four Teaching analysis). This is what is called a Threefold Exclusive Truth, incontrast with Ichinen Sanzen which is a Threefold Inclusive Truth. (See Ng - Tientai Buddhism and Early Madhyamaka). This would be compatible with many forms of Japanese Buddhism, including Shingon and Kegon (to the extent it still exists). This is not, however, compatible with Lotus teachings that assert the Threefold Truth is inclusive, meaning, the three truths mutually are coextensive with each other without any having a superior position and are mutually coherent. "Samsara IS Nirvana" in Lotus Teachings, not "Samsara and Nirvana are two sides of the same coin, subsumed in a higher order reality" as proposed in your description of Ichinen Nimon.
In the Hokke tradition we do not take this book into account, however we do have, from Tiantai, the notion of "Ichinen Sanzen"
Ichinen Sanzen means "One Mind, Three Thousand (dharmas or dhatus)"
The concept of "Ichinen" is the same, the sphere of the Absolute, and no further explanation is needed.
No. Ichinen in ichinen-sanzen means mind-moment, ksana.
"Sanzen" (three thousand) is the number we get when we take the ten realms, which include the six realms of ignorance/samsara and the four realms of enlightenment/nirvana.
As the ten realms have all ten realms in itself and each of these dharmas have all the "ten suchness" encompassed by the "Three Domains", when we speak of "Sanzen" we are referring to all the dharmas of the two spheres: nirvana/enlightenment - samsara/ignorance.

In other words, "Sanzen" is a more structured and accurate form of "Two Portals".
The first part is more or less correct - 10 worlds mutually possess 10 worlds. You left out the rest.

Each of these worlds in turn have ten factors. These 10 worlds mutually possessing 10 worlds, each with ten factors, expresses as the individual, their community of sentient beings, and the environment. 10x10x10x3 = sanzen, or 3,000. The particulars are illustrative. 3,000 is an arbitrary number, really, but basically this number refers to the dharmadhatu, encompassing both sentient beings at the individual and social levels, and their environment.

As to the relationship between ichinen and sanzen, Zhiyi explained that it is neither vertical (meaning one is a higher order of truth than the other) nor is it horizontal (meaning distinct but equal categories). The two sides of the equation, Ichinen and Sanzen, are wholly integrated, coextensive, "two but not two". In Ziporyn's terminology, ichinen expresses as sanzen, and sanzen expresses as ichinen. It should then be apparent that we're not talking about "portals" (門 is usually translated as "gate", and this is the term used in most Lotus school related translation literature) to a higher level truth. The ultimate is THE Truth; the relative is THE truth; the middle is THE Truth; the three together is THE Truth (and finish the analysis out with the catuskoti).

The reference to ksana (ichinen) and dharmadhatu (sanzen) then offer a hint as to what this teaching is really about. Both of these terms refer to aspects of mind. Ichinen sanzen is a teaching about the mind of each sentient being. It is not an epistemological theory about how things really are in the scientific sense of some objective truth. Its a guide to understand what one sees when they examine the mind. Each of the 3,000 is not a "portal". What Zhiyi was pointing out was that one's mind is coextensive with and indistinguishable from the reality that we, as unawakened beings posit is separate from us. When this integration of mind and dharmadhatu is thoroughly understood experientially, this is bodhi - the realm of buddha, and critically, the structure of ichinen sanzen shows us that buddhahood is inseparable from the nine other worlds, ie. buddhanature permeates all and buddha is a coarising function for every sentient being and sentient beings are coarising functions of buddha.
The difference between the two lies solely in the following fact:

When we say "ichinen nimon", we don't understand how this can be coherent. How can a single absolute element contain two other radically opposite elements?
Aside from the fact that these are two very different teachings, if one is incapable of making the point clear, why bother bringing it up? Really, you're whole project here has done nothing to clarify "enlightenment" but rather muddy the waters and confuse things.
Simple: there are two spheres of subjective reality, the conventional world, samsara, and the ultimate world, nirvana. But this is only observed when we analyze from "above", in the conventional world, of relationships.
But when we look "from within" in the sphere of the Absolute, Ichinen, there is no essential distinction between Nirvana and Samsara.
Again, this is a Distinct Teaching. It has nothing to do with Ichinen Sanzen, the Perfect Teaching.

I will not address the rest of your analysis which is extrapolated from your incorrect understanding that I identified above.
Thank you for your fine analysis of Ichinen Sanzen. From the perspective of the awakened state this (Samsara) is indeed the Buddha's Land, Nirvana, migraine, greed, anger suffering, pleasure and Enlightenment.

Regarding Ashvaghosha, Nichiren considered him to be the 13th successor of the Buddha. In On Repaying Debts of Gratitude Nichiren teaches:

“The non-Buddhist philosophers who preceded the Buddha taught that life is permanent, joyful, endowed with self, and pure. Later, when the Buddha appeared in the world, he declared that life is marked by suffering, emptiness, impermanence, and non-self. Now Ashvaghosha and Nāgārjuna insist that it is permanent, joyful, endowed with self, and pure. This being so, we must suppose that, since both the Buddha and Mahākāshyapa have passed away from the world, the devil king of the sixth heaven has taken possession of these two men and is trying to overthrow the teachings of Buddhism and replace them with the teachings of the non-Buddhists.

“If that is so, then these men are the enemies of Buddhism. We must smash their skulls, cut off their heads, put an end to their lives, see that they get no more to eat. Let us drive them from the country!”

Such were the declarations of the Hinayana believers. And Ashvaghosha and Nāgārjuna, each having only a few allies, were forced day and night to listen to these shouts of calumny, and morning and evening to bear the attacks of sticks and staves.

But these two men were in fact messengers of the Buddha. For in the Māyā Sutra, it is predicted that Ashvaghosha will appear six hundred years, and Nāgārjuna, seven hundred years, after the Buddha’s passing. The same prediction is also recorded in the Lankāvatāra Sutra, and of course in the Buddha’s Successors Sutra as well.

But the Hinayana believers would not heed these predictions, and instead attacked the Mahayanists blindly and without reason. “Since hatred and jealousy... abound even when the Thus Come One is in the world, how much more will this be so after his passing?” says the Lotus Sutra. Looking at the time of Ashvaghosha and Nāgārjuna, one begins to have a little understanding of what these words of the sutra really mean. Moreover, Bodhisattva Āryadeva was killed by a non-Buddhist, and the Venerable Āryasimha had his head cut off. These events, too, give one cause for thought. - Nichiren

In fact, in his most important writing, The True Object of Worship, Nichiren stated that Ashvaghosha (along with Nagarjuna and Vasubhandu) knew in his heart the Three Thousand Worlds in a Moment of Life but didn't expound it because the time was not right. He also stated that those like Asvaghosha who appeared in the Former Day of Law were not in error but their teachings were incomplete. To say that Ashvaghosha had nothing to do with the Lotus sutra Buddhism of Nichiren, is in error.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:11 pm In fact, in his most important writing, The True Object of Worship, Nichiren stated that Ashvaghosha (along with Nagarjuna and Vasubhandu) knew in his heart the Three Thousand Worlds in a Moment of Life but didn't expound it because the time was not right. He also stated that those like Asvaghosha who appeared in the Former Day of Law were not in error but their teachings were incomplete. To say that Ashvaghosha had nothing to do with the Lotus sutra Buddhism of Nichiren, is in error.
OK. Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana is acknowledged as a text that distinguishes Mahayana and Hinayana. However, it doesn't have anything to do with the subjects raised in this thread, ie. understanding ichinen sanzen, the threefold inclusive truth, the Perfect and Sudden teaching, or the meaning of bodhi.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ronnymarsh »

A Mahayana has three “philosophical perspectives”: Yogacara, Madhyamaka and Tathagatagarbha. The first part of Samadhi, the second part of Prajna and the third part of the synthesis between the two perspectives. Every Mahayana school of Chinese Buddhism starts from the Tathagatagarbha perspective, so they are all syntheses between Yogacara and Madhyamaka.

Nichiren wrote, for example:
“You should by all means perform as much good as you possibly can for the sake of your deceased husband. The words of a wise man of old also teach that “you should base your mind on the ninth consciousness, and carry out your practice in the six consciousnesses.” How reasonable it is too! In this letter I have written my long-cherished teachings. Keep them deep within your heart. You should by all means perform as much good as you possibly can for the sake of your deceased husband. The words of a wise man of old also teach that “you should base your mind on the ninth consciousness, and carry out your practice in the six consciousnesses.” How reasonable it is too! In this letter I have written my long-cherished teachings. Keep them deep within your heart." (Hell is the Land of Tranquil Light – SGI’s Gosho No 52)
and also
“The body is the palace of the ninth consciousness, the unchanging reality that reigns over all of life’s functions. To be endowed with the Ten Worlds means that all ten, without a single exception, exist in one world." (The Real Aspect of ther Gohonzon – SGI’s Gosho nº 101)
The notion of consciousnesses other than the first six is a theme presented by the Yogacara perspective, and particularly the idea of “Amala Vijnana” is a particularity brought up by Paramartha, the translator/writer of the Awakening of Faith. of the Sino-Japanese schools of Yogacara references.

When I say that the type of synthesis that exists in Nichiren prioritizes Yogacara over Madhyamaka (although it uses the basic madhyamaka nomenclature, like the Three Truths), I am basing myself on that aspect. How often does Nichiren talk about “emptyness” in his writings? What is more important in understanding Nichiren Buddhism, the notion of the "seed of Buddhahood" or the notion of "Shunyata"? Isn't that self-evident?
__________________________________________________________

B - You have to be a generalist in internet forum conversations, I can't dedicate myself to writing an entire thesis here.
__________________________________________________________

C- What are the sources of these general doctrinal criticisms of the Awakening of Faith?

Chi-i lived in the 6th century, between 538 and 597 CE. The Awakening of Faith was translated by Paramartha, a contemporary of him (died 569 CE). The Huayan school will only be formalized at the beginning of the 8th century CE, and the one who will devote efforts to refute it will be Miao-lo. However, before the existence of the Awakening of Faith, before the existence of the Huayan school, Chi-i had already developed her perception, which cannot be said to be opposed to the perceptions present in Avamtasaka and in the Awakening of Faith, on the contrary , the formulation of the idea of ​​“Sanzen” depends on three fundamental texts: Kumarajiva's Lotus Sutra, which exposes the notion of “Ten Suchness”, the Avatamsaka Sutra which exposes the interpenetration of the Ten Realms, and the notion of the Three Spheres of individuation of the Shastra of the Great Prajna Paramita. Note that without Avatamsaka, the notion of “Sanzen” does not hold up to a Buddhist critic.

The problem with the general idea of ​​the Huayan school is not derived from Avatamsaka, which in Tiantai's classification system represents the greatest teaching just below the Hokke-Nehan, but rather from Huayan's failure to ignore the Ten Lotus Suchness, and the consequences from this ignorance to universalist Buddhist soterology.

I repeat, without the Avatamsaka Sutra there would be no notion of Ichinen Sanzen.
__________________________________________________________

D- Ichinen does not mean “ksana” (a moment) from the Buddhist understanding of time.
The Chinese Buddhist term for "ksana" is the phonetic adaptation 刹那 [setsuna] and not "ichinen".
Ichinen 一念 precisely means “One Thought” or “One Remembrance”.

A ksana, from the Buddhist perspective, is equivalent to 1/60 of "one thought", ie, from the perspective of time, "Ichinen" is equivalent to sixty ksanas.

This “One Thought” is equivalent to the entire process of “knowledge”, that is, the entire process that starts from the contact between subject (sense organ) and object, until the emergence of a consciousness.

When we say “ichinen” [a thought] we are including everything: all five aggregates of the subject (the one who perceives and becomes aware) and all aspects related to the object that is perceived.

And yes, the Ichinen Sanzen is a teaching about the mind, but it is nonetheless “an epistemological theory about how things really are…”.

See, in Kanjin Honzon Sho tells the following dialog:
“Question: What is the diference between the teaching of one thousand suchnesses in one hundred realms and the teaching of one mind–three thousand?

Answer: The teaching of one thousand suchnesses in one hundred realms concerns only sentient beings, while the teaching of one mind–three thousand is related to all beings, sentient or nonsentient.
The notion of “Ichinen Sanzen” does not only address the “mind” aspect, but also the whole material reality. At KHS Nichiren goes on to explain how this is possible:
“[Ten suchnesses can be classified into two headings: matter and mind.] Appearance is matter. Nature is mind. Entity, power, activity, and environmental cause are matter and mind. Primary cause and e›ect are mind. Rewards and retributions are matter. (…)”
By including EVERYTHING that exists, we are talking precisely about the sphere of the ABSOLUTE.

Ichinen Sanzen's general idea is to understand that all that “exists” is inherently emptyness both of a self-sufficient existence (emptyness of atman) and of real distinctions that can be related to each of the constituent factors of reality (emptyness of dharmas ).

That is, not only is there no independent "I" in any constituent element of reality, there is no real distinction between them in which we can say "this dharma" is different from "that dharma". That is, A Buddha does not exist apart from Ordinary Mortals, just as the Pure Land does not exist apart from the Saha World.

A Buddha is an ordinary mortal and an ordinary mortal is a Buddha. The Pure Land is the Saha World and the Saha World is the Pure Land.

Here is the meaning of
“my land is pure and indestructible, but the multitude to see it burn up”.
It is not possible to say that they are “faces of the same coin”, because in a coin each side exists in opposition to the other. What could be said is that they are like the face of a sphere.

A sphere has only one face, but we can touch two equally distant poles in all directions. The "North" pole of a sphere is not a distinct face of the sphere in relation to the "South", the two are aspects of that sphere, but when we establish a convention called "distance" on this surface we say that there are two poles.

This means that in the process of knowledge (the formation of our own reality) there is no subject and object, there is no contact, there is no sensation, there is no perception, there is no volition and there is no consciousness.

We say "subject" only when there is a referential called "object", and vice versa, as they are mutually dependent, there is no subject outside the object and no object outside the subject, what exists is a single reality that is at the same time subject-object.

This is precisely the general perspective called “vijnanapiti matra”, or “only representation”, which is the notion brought by the Yogacara school. However, unlike the approach of the “Characteristics of Dharmas” school, Chi’i by including the notion of the “Ten Suchness” expands the concept and demonstrates how lighting is accessible to everyone, including, in the extreme, plants and stones.

Plants and stones are part of what is discriminated in the relationship as an “object”, what is known. Therefore they fall into the category of what Buddhism calls "dharmas".

Dharmas in Buddhism are the elements that make up reality. In general terms they are the sets we call the Five Aggregates (skandhas), ¨Twelve Bases (ayatanas) and Eighteen Spheres (dhatus).

The five aggregates are: Form, Perception, Sensation, Volition and Consciousness.
The twelve Ayatanas are: Six sense objects (thoughts, textures, tastes, smells, sounds and sights) plus the Six Sense Organs (mind, body, tongue, nose, ears and eyes).
The eighteen Dhatus are: the Twelve Ayatanas plus the Six Consciousnesses arising from contact.

This is what Buddhism calls “dharmas”, without this understanding it is not possible to understand what we are talking about.

Now, from the knowledge of what a "dharma" is, we go to Kumarajiva's Lotus Sutra, in the Hoben chapter, and read the following:
“The true aspect of all dharmas [Shoho Jisso] can only be understood and shared between buddhas. This reality consists of the appearance [Nyoze So], nature [Nyoze Sho], entity [Nyoze Tai], power [Nyoze Riki], influence [Nyoze Sa], internal cause [Nyoze In], relation [Nyoze En], latent effect [Nyoze Ka], manifest effect [Nyoze Ho], and their consistency from beginning to end [Nyoze Hon Ma’kukyo To]
As the set of Ten Suchness indicates the non-dual characteristic of mind and matter in each dharma [as per the KHS quote above] it means that each of these dharmas (six aggregates, twelve bases and eighteen spheres) possess the non-dual characteristic of mind- matter

This could not be perceived by the Indian school Yogacara, or any other, since the “Ten Suchness” does not appear in the Indian text, only in the translation by Kumarajiva, who presents us with a paraphrase about the ten dharma questions that appear in the Sutra.

Without this understanding, there can be no notion that “objects” also have/are minds and that they therefore have the ability to attain enlightenment.
The result of this perspective has effects on the soteriological basis of Buddhism with regard, first, to the possibility of the two vehicles attaining Samyaksamboddhi, as well as, secondly, the possibility of the icchantikas attaining the same.

If we ignore the “Ten Suchness” of Kumarajiva's Lotus, then we have absolutely no reason to believe that “objects” have “mind” and therefore innate Buddha nature. So, from this perspective, those of the two vehicles, who destroyed their minds and went into extinction, cannot have the capacity to attain other different enlightenment, nor can the icchantikas who burnt out their virtuous mental aspects (the cause for enlightenment).

This is the main point of dispute between the Tiantai school, and therefore Nichiren, in relation to the Hosso (Yogacara) and Kegon (Avatamsaka) school, but not in relation to the general and comprehensive structure of reality, including its sources.

Nichiren says the following in gosho “The Three Kinds of Treasure” (Sushun Tenno Gosho – Gosho do Imperador Sushun] SGI’s Gosho 106:
Buddhism teaches that, when the Buddha nature manifests itself from within, it will receive protection from without. This is one of its fundamental principles. The Lotus Sutra says, “I have profound reverence for you.”2 The Nirvana Sutra states, “All living beings alike possess the Buddha nature.” Bodhisattva Ashvaghosha’s Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana says, “Because the true abiding Law invariably permeates one’s life and exerts its influence, illusions are instantly extinguished, and the Dharma body manifests itself.” Bodhisattva Maitreya’s Treatise on the Stages of Yoga Practice contains a similar statement. What is hidden turns into manifest virtue.
Here Nichiren presents an argument and cites four texts to support it: the Lotus Sutra, the Nirvana Sutra, the Awakening of Faith and the Yogaron, that is, together with the two main teaching sutras he uses two texts from a Yogacara perspective, including the Awakening of Faith.

In the Gosho “Teaching, Ability, Time and Country” (SGI's Gosho 07), Nichiren says the following:
“Japan is a country that is exclusively suited to Mahayana, and among those teachings it should be dedicated solely to the Lotus Sutra. (The above statement is attested to in The Treatise on the Stages of Yoga Practice, the writings of Seng-chao, and the records of Prince Shōtoku, the Great Teacher Dengyō, and Annen.)6 To understand this is to understand the country. “
Again, here Nichiren again bases his argument on a Yogacara (Yugaron) source which is later cited in the gosho "On the Five Guides for Propagation".
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:55 am When I say that the type of synthesis that exists in Nichiren prioritizes Yogacara over Madhyamaka (although it uses the basic madhyamaka nomenclature, like the Three Truths), I am basing myself on that aspect. How often does Nichiren talk about “emptyness” in his writings? What is more important in understanding Nichiren Buddhism, the notion of the "seed of Buddhahood" or the notion of "Shunyata"? Isn't that self-evident?
Respectfully, you exaggerate the influence of Yogacara in Nichiren's thought. You cherry picked a couple of references when an objective survey of his writing shows he relied overwhelmingly on Tiantai thought. Moreover, he did not use Madhyamaka language. Three Truths is not madhyamaka. It is Tiantai. Try and argue the validity of Three Truths with a Madhyamakan.
B - You have to be a generalist in internet forum conversations, I can't dedicate myself to writing an entire thesis here.
Then you ought to just address the immediate discussions and avoid comments like that.
C- What are the sources of these general doctrinal criticisms of the Awakening of Faith?
For one, its simply not a source in Zhiyi's works. To the extent that he was even aware of Yogacara, he criticized it. You can find a discussion on this in Ziporyn's Good/Evil.
Chi-i lived in the 6th century, between 538 and 597 CE. The Awakening of Faith was translated by Paramartha, a contemporary of him (died 569 CE). The Huayan school will only be formalized at the beginning of the 8th century CE, and the one who will devote efforts to refute it will be Miao-lo. However, before the existence of the Awakening of Faith, before the existence of the Huayan school, Chi-i had already developed her perception, which cannot be said to be opposed to the perceptions present in Avamtasaka and in the Awakening of Faith, on the contrary , the formulation of the idea of ​​“Sanzen” depends on three fundamental texts: Kumarajiva's Lotus Sutra, which exposes the notion of “Ten Suchness”, the Avatamsaka Sutra which exposes the interpenetration of the Ten Realms, and the notion of the Three Spheres of individuation of the Shastra of the Great Prajna Paramita. Note that without Avatamsaka, the notion of “Sanzen” does not hold up to a Buddhist critic.
Yes, Zhiyi regarded the Avatamsaka and many other sutras very highly. In this he was different from Nichiren who exclusively extolled the eminence of the Lotus. Zhiyi also relied heavily on the Ta chi tu lun. This doesn't mean that the Tiantai reading of the Avatamsaka was the same as the Huayan reading. In fact, earlier in this thread when you tried to selectively quote Nichiren on the Avatamsaka, I had to point out to you that he was in fact critiquing the Huayan reading of a particular passage and praising the Tiantai reading. https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 46#p599946
D- Ichinen does not mean “ksana” (a moment) from the Buddhist understanding of time.
The Chinese Buddhist term for "ksana" is the phonetic adaptation 刹那 [setsuna] and not "ichinen".
Ichinen 一念 precisely means “One Thought” or “One Remembrance”.

A ksana, from the Buddhist perspective, is equivalent to 1/60 of "one thought", ie, from the perspective of time, "Ichinen" is equivalent to sixty ksanas.
One Mind 一心 and One Thought 一念 are often interchangeable in Mohezhikuan/Makashikan. The emphasis is on the momentariness of a thought - .
The analysis of mental [dharmas] is also like this. The text of the Ta chih tu lun, where it clari³es the Tripi¦aka method of contemplation by analyzing dharmas, says, “Forms, whether coarse or ³ne, should all be contemplated as transient and without self[-existence].” The reason is that, whether coarse or fine, forms arise [in the mind] because of ignorance. Since ignorant [mental impressions] are not true reality [itself], both the coarse and fine [impressions of form] have only conventional [reality or existence]. Because they are [merely] conventional, they are transient and without [self-]nature; thus one can realize [their] emptiness.

Also, even an ephemeral [thought] 介爾 surely arises through [the interplay of] the sense organs and sense objects, and there is not even one dharma that does not arise through conditions. To arise through conditions means that each and every phenomenon is transient. Some people say that one thought in the mind 一念心 lasts for sixty moments 刹那 (ksana), and others say for thirty billion moments. But nothing abides for [even] a moment (ksana), and nothing remains from thought to thought.
Great Cessation and Insight, p. 538, Swanson Tr.

The emphasis is on the ephemeral momentariness of a thought - not some higher level truth called Mind as you are arguing.

Here is the passage where Zhiyi introduces ichinen sanzen:
[Thus] a single thought includes the ten dharma realms. A single dharma realm includes the [other] ten dharma realms, so there are one hundred dharma realms. One realm includes thirty types of worlds [that is, each of the ten dharma realms are included in each of the three types of worlds: the world of sentient beings, the world of the five skandhas, and various lands], multiplied by one hundred dharma realms. This results in the inclusion of three thousand types of worlds. These three thousand [worlds] exist in a single momentary thought.

If there is no thought, that is the end of the matter. If there is even an ephemeral thought, this includes three thousand [realms]. But we cannot say that the single thought has prior existence, and that all phenomen (sarva-dharma) exist later, nor can we say that all phenomena have prior existence, and that the single thought exists later. For example, it is like a thing that changes through eight aspects [of arising, abiding, changing, and perishing]; it is not that things exist prior to these aspects and are caused to change through them, nor do the aspects exist prior to things and are caused to change through them [but things and their passing through arising, abiding, and so forth occur together]. There can be no priority nor posteriority [since it occurs simultaneously]. It is just that things are said to change by passing through these aspects, and these aspects are said to occur to things.

Thoughts are also like this. If all phenomena arise from a single thought, this is a horizontal [relationship]; if a thought in one moment encompasses all phenomena, this is a vertical [relationship]. But these are neither [merely] vertical nor [merely] horizontal. It is just that thought is all phenomena, and all phenomena is thought. Therefore [the relationship of thought and phenomena, the mind and objects] is neither [merely] vertical nor horizontal; they are neither the same nor different. This is mysterious and sublime, profound in the extreme, cannot be grasped conceptually, and cannot be verbalized. This is what is called [contemplating] “objects as inconceivable.”
When we say “ichinen” [a thought] we are including everything: all five aggregates of the subject (the one who perceives and becomes aware) and all aspects related to the object that is perceived.
No. The five aggregates etc. are on the sanzen side of the equation.
And yes, the Ichinen Sanzen is a teaching about the mind, but it is nonetheless “an epistemological theory about how things really are…”.

See, in Kanjin Honzon Sho tells the following dialog:
“Question: What is the diference between the teaching of one thousand suchnesses in one hundred realms and the teaching of one mind–three thousand?

Answer: The teaching of one thousand suchnesses in one hundred realms concerns only sentient beings, while the teaching of one mind–three thousand is related to all beings, sentient or nonsentient.
The notion of “Ichinen Sanzen” does not only address the “mind” aspect, but also the whole material reality. At KHS Nichiren goes on to explain how this is possible:
“[Ten suchnesses can be classified into two headings: matter and mind.] Appearance is matter. Nature is mind. Entity, power, activity, and environmental cause are matter and mind. Primary cause and e›ect are mind. Rewards and retributions are matter. (…)”
No, that's not the implication at all. You seem to be mistaking references to matter in these passages as some sort of affirmation of materialist sense of existence. That is an error that takes a lot of time to address, but basically, as I refer you again to the 12 nidana. You'll notice that name (mind)-and-form (matter) are derivative - ignorance -> mental formations -> consciousness -> name-and-form... In the Hinayana there is a sense that form is an irreducible dharma, but this is not the view in Mahayana.
By including EVERYTHING that exists, we are talking precisely about the sphere of the ABSOLUTE.
but nothing actually exists... as you sort of acknowledge below... but if your idea of the absolute is the totality of all dharmas... that's the dharmadhatu, which is not absolute... it is dependently arisen. This absolute you seem to contemplate is a convention, which kind of undermines it being absolute.
Ichinen Sanzen's general idea is to understand that all that “exists” is inherently emptyness both of a self-sufficient existence (emptyness of atman) and of real distinctions that can be related to each of the constituent factors of reality (emptyness of dharmas ).

That is, not only is there no independent "I" in any constituent element of reality, there is no real distinction between them in which we can say "this dharma" is different from "that dharma". That is, A Buddha does not exist apart from Ordinary Mortals, just as the Pure Land does not exist apart from the Saha World.
No. And now you've gone too far to posit that ichinen sanzen is just a teaching on emptiness. That is not correct.
A Buddha is an ordinary mortal
You can have a pass on that because we're in the Nichiren forum, but try arguing that elsewhere on this board.
and an ordinary mortal is a Buddha.
... in principal. An unawakened being is not a buddha.
The Pure Land is the Saha World and the Saha World is the Pure Land.
Only as viewed by a Buddha.
Here is the meaning of
“my land is pure and indestructible, but the multitude to see it burn up”.
emphasis added.
It is not possible to say that they are “faces of the same coin”, because in a coin each side exists in opposition to the other. What could be said is that they are like the face of a sphere....
You lost me. I can't continue this. Respectfully, I'm bowing out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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